Yamaha Pop Upright Piano Pack

[AKRAM]

Hello mates, I am looking for a good piano sound for my S970 as piano is one of my primary instrument for all the song I usually arrange. I really liked the CFX and C7 piano sample on Genos (I have to sell my organs to buy that) I have tried all the sound suggested in this forum like Steinway and other samples. Now I am looking to spend some cash to buy good piano samples. Anyone bought the "Yamaha Pop Upright Piano" sample pack from Yamaha Music soft? How good is the quality. I have been a Casio PX360 user and the piano sound was really good. Need your help 

[AKRAM]

Tons of thanks Hans. I have downloaded the file. I am now installing the ppf and will let you know how it sounds soon. Did you make this one? Is there any tutorial from where I can learn how to make ppf from Piano sample? I have some good piano collection which I think I can use to make piano voices. I am ready to sacrifice all my keyboard memory to install a big sized piano pack on my s970.. Thanks again for your help.   

Regards,

Akram

[hans1966]

Hi AKRAM, thanks for your kind words. Regarding what you ask me to create PPF samples, in the following links I think you can find something interesting. Greetings Hans

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umt0zPH8APU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFXnRzwhvJo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z11wGpTaUGw

[AlBags]

Hans .. Hi there!

I loaded this into Genos .. as I love Alicia Keys.
This sounds great in Genos. I just had to change/shape sound in Genos processor very small amount.

Thanks so much for a great sample!

Al. UK

[AlBags]

Hans ,

I linked to your post here from the Genos boards ... Hope that is OK?!

Thanks again ... Al.

[hans1966]

Hi Albgas, I'm glad to know that the piano sample by Alicia keys worked perfectly on your Genos. you are right in that the sample can be touched up a bit to give it some effect. I will continue uploading some samples that are of interest to forum users. greetings Hans

[AlBags]

Hans ..

Thanks so much!   Alan

👍🎹

[frankia]

Hi Hans.

Thank you very much - I have downloaded it too.

Cheers

[hans1966]

Hello FRANKIA, it is always a pleasure to serve.     greetings    Hans

[gabrielschuck]

Hello AKRAM, I send you the file directly, I hope you can open it. greetings Hans


https://1drv.ms/u/s!AsO13XgZ63Uzg3qZsKJ-k70uE97Q

Both links are not working.
Could you repost, please?
Greetings

[hpdc]

Hello FRANKIA, it is always a pleasure to serve.     greetings    Hans

I am looking for a good piano sound for my PSR S670, too. Do you think I should try the acoustic piano of Alicia Keys you suggested to AKRAM? Old links are not working, do you know how to get it? Thank you so much for any help.

[dickeys]

Hello AKRAM, I send you the file directly, I hope you can open it. greetings Hans

[Link no longer working removed by overover]

Hello Hans,

the link is not working, can you repost please?

Regards

[hans1966]

Hello Guys, here is the download link for the Alicia Keys Piano again.

Enjoy!!



https://1drv.ms/u/s!AsO13XgZ63UzjGJZWgO9qEECy2SL?e=tObknz

[hans1966]

I am looking for a good piano sound for my PSR S670, too. Do you think I should try the acoustic piano of Alicia Keys you suggested to AKRAM? Old links are not working, do you know how to get it? Thank you so much for any help.

Unfortunately this file cannot be loaded on the S670, since it weighs 80 Mb, and the 670 only has 32 Mb of expansion memory

greetings

Hans

[BogdanH]

hello Hans,
I have downloaded your pack and it's not 80MB, it is 221MB!
I have loaded the pack into YEM, where I can see that voice is using 80 samples. That is, in average, each sample has size of about 2.7MB and the length of each sample is about 16 seconds. That's way to long and only makes voice unnecessary big.
I think 16sec is more that enough for two lowest octaves, but the rest should be accordingly shorter (coming down to about 2sec for last two octaves).

Just sharing my observation,
Bogdan

[Amwilburn]

Bogdan, is that a "Challenge Accepted!" from you to make this pack more memory efficient?
(please say yes!)


And yes I agree on the relative lengths, 2-3 seconds should be enough for the higest 'non damper' octaves, but even middle C needs almost 16 seconds (maybe 12-14), unless you can do a loop and fade of the tail end? in which case you could probably chop it in half to 8 secs.

You mentioned 80 samples; is it a 4 step dynamic? With 20 different notes sampled across the keys?


Mark

[BogdanH]

hi Mark,
I have only opened that pack in YEM and gave my initial impression about relative big size. That is, I haven't installed it in keyboard and so I can't say anything about voice sound quality. As far I know, it's impossible to extract wav samples after they're imported into YEM and so I can't say how much one could optimize (shorten) that voice.
Yes, voice has 16 samples/layer x 5 layers =80 samples. Effectively (C0-C7) it's 2sample/octave.

I have checked for Alicia's Keys samples on web, but after I saw many negative opinions I decided not to continue any further.

Yeah, how long should samples be, that's the question 
Real piano can sustain almost forever, but for keyboard a compromise must be made. And here I think we can make a consensus on how long is long enough: play the slowest piano piece and count how many seconds you need to keep the longest note(s) pressed.
I'm not some Chopin performer, but one is for sure: it's not that long as one would assume. I think, for normal piano playing, 15sec is already generous for two lowest octaves (for me personally, 12sec is more than enough). Next two octaves maybe 8sec, next two 6sec,...
Because there's next question.. what is better: more shorter samples per octave, or fewer longer samples per octave? And no matter what we decide for, the total size must be multiplied by at least 4 (for velocity layers).

About looping sustain for piano samples... If samples are recordings of real piano, then it's extremely difficult to loop them -it just isn't worth the effort (just for sake to impress someone).

Greetings,
Bogdan

[gabrielschuck]

Show me a good (realy good) piano pack that's only 50 - 32 MB in size and I'll change my mind: Impossible. And it needs to be good, you know? My ear is keen.
And even with Yem, we still wouldn't achieve a true piano voice because many details would be missing, such as the sound of the pedal when pressed or released, etc.
In summary, either you have a sampled piano consuming part of the expansion memory, or you have to settle for the keyboard's own piano
voices.
I wonder if motif consumers really care about a more or less piano, since the possibilities are much greater in terms of sampling, if I'm not mistaken, it's even possible to define release samples. Just there we would already have a piano occupying almost the entire 2 GB expansion memory.

[BogdanH]

Show me a good (realy good) piano pack that's only 50 - 32 MB in size and I'll change my mind: Impossible. And it needs to be good, you know? My ear is keen.

What is good? You mean good sounding according to your taste? I ask because we always say "I want real piano sound", but many times it turns out, that that's not what we are looking for -except you're an experienced pianist in first place (but in that case PSR keybed is kinda weak for that). Anyway, this has more to do with finding proper sounding samples and less with voice size.
About voice size... Ok, 50MB is a bit small for perfect sounding piano, but I'm quite sure that about 100MB is enough for 3 samples/octave in four velocity layers covering 7 octaves -I think that's more than acceptable for a good sounding piano on arranger keyboard.

And even with Yem, we still wouldn't achieve a true piano voice because many details would be missing, such as the sound of the pedal when pressed or released, etc.

Seriously, you really think that pedal noise is a piano feature? It's not -it's something that manufacturer try to avoid as much as possible. Audience should only hear the sound of piano and not the rattling of mechanical parts.

...we would already have a piano occupying almost the entire 2 GB expansion memory.

That would only be true if:
1. separate sample would be used for each of 88 notes (which is never the case nor it is needed)
2. AND each sample would have the length of at least 15 sec (which only makes sense for lowest two-three octaves)
3. AND all eight layers would be filled with samples (I think 4-5 layers is already very generous)

Would such voice sound better than i.e. 120MB voice? I doubt.

Bogdan

[gabrielschuck]

Seriously, you really think that pedal noise is a piano feature? It's not -it's something that manufacturer try to avoid as much as possible. Audience should only hear the sound of piano and not the rattling of mechanical parts.

Yes, the pedal noise is a characteristic of the piano, just like the sound we hear from a guitarist sliding their finger across the strings, or from a singer breathing during pauses... It may not be important to you, but it is to other people, and it's even part of the music or the characteristics of a voice.
All of these things are present in Kontakt piano libraries.
But you're right, the audience for arranger keyboards, as I've observed in this forum, isn't that demanding, so they won't worry about these minimal details. Complaining about the voices that come with the keyboard and especially about the piano would be absurd.

[DerekA]

I'm sure I am missing something here. But I've never really understood *why* even a 50MB piano sample is not excellent. I mean, its an actual digital recording of the sound, isn't it? So why should playing C from a sample on a Genos not sound identical to playing the same C on the sampled instrument, assuming different velocity samples are available?

So I'm not daft, I know it isn't the same, but what are some of the reasons why? It can't all be down to the sampling itself, so what else is stopping it sounding excellent?

[BogdanH]

hi Derek,
I'm not experienced piano player and so here's only my hearing and a little knowledge 

First: even less than 30MB piano voice can sound perfect! But it will not sound perfect in all circumstances. That is, depending on player's skill (and his hearing), it can happen that it will sound perfect all the time or only at certain conditions.. or almost never.
Let me try to explain what I mean...
So we have a perfect C sample, but it can only represent certain key dynamic. There exist eight of them (see Wiki) and so to have a perfect C, we would need eight samples for single note. The thing is, key dynamic (=velocity in keyboard language) is not only about loudness: on real piano, C note sounds differently at different velocities. So, eight samples per note, multiplied by 88 keys (or at least 76) is.. a lot.
And so we make first compromise: less samples per note... how many is still perfect enough? The more we take away, the less perfect it will be. My personal opinion is, four samples per note (=four layers in voice) is good enough even for piano lover -but it's not perfect anymore.
There one thing in this regard that I need to mention... In YEM we can make fake layers, which imitate lower velocity of orginal tone. For example, we can imitate mp dynamic if we have mf dynamic sample. Because YEM is very limited in that, this is only usable for quieter tones. Why am I telling that? Because that way we can add 5th layer without increasing voice size.

Ok, keyboard has 76 notes.. but we really don't need separate sample for each note. Keyboard electronics is quite powerful and can easily transpose a note (in real time) up/down by one octave and so theoretically, we only need a single note per octave. But something tells us, that this wouldn't sound right... and indeed, it doesn't -at least not for piano (and some other multi-tone instruments).
The thing is, on real piano, two notes (C and G for example) don't only have different pitch.. they also have different sound (because different strings are used). However, if we transpose C to G on keyboard, then G will have the same characteristics (sound) as C, only pitch will differ.
And so we need to make compromise again: to what extent will we transpose notes.. or put differently, how many samples per octave is good enough. Again, the less samples we use, the less perfect piano sound will be.
And here "depending on circumstances" comes in when we decide. How do we usually play piano? In most cases, no matter how many keys we hit at once, the minimal number of semitones between two neighboring keys, is three. That is, if we have four notes per octave and play a chord, then each note will actually sound differently (as on real piano). Ok, for Beethoven fans (playing some complicated arpeggios) three semitones difference is probably too much, but it's sufficient for average piano lover.

So far two perfect quality sacrifices have been made: number of layers and number of samples per octave -both of these greatly influence the total size of the voice. They decide if voice size will be 30MB or 300+MB.

The final optimizing is determining the length of samples. I didn't measure, but I guess that on real piano, C0 note can sound up to one minute (or even more). That's a luxury we can't afford on our keyboard, because each second increases sample size by 172kbytes. And honestly, we don't need such lengths at actual playing.

Summary: even if samples from the same package are used, the less of them we use in voice (to make voice size smaller), the less perfect voice will be. The only thing that we need to answer is, at what minimum of samples the voice is good enough.

Darn... I need to learn how to shorten my posts...
Bogdan

[mikf]

Yes Derek, it's an accurate recording but only at that touch and at that instant. Big challenge with all real instruments, and piano may well be the toughest, is that there are theoretically an infinite number of touch/time combinations possible. So some averaging and data optimizing is required to avoid huge sample size.
But when the sample is cleverly done, and listened to as part of a total piece rather than a heavily instrumented spot check, I suspect the average human listener may not detect the difference between a good quality 50mb sample and a much larger sample.
But everyone can hear the difference between good playing and mediocre playing. And frankly, really good piano playing is not really possible on a poor keybed. So once the sample is reasonable, -  which it mostly is nowadays, even on arrangers - the combination of keybed quality and the player quality are about 1000 times more important than improving the sample. Given that I seldom hear really high quality keyboard playing on posts made by members on this forum I am mostly skeptical about posts re piano sample quality. Interestingly the  few players I really recognize as quality keyboard players never seem to be the ones who complain about the piano sample quality.
As for pedal noise being important - as a former pro piano player, that to me is sound aficionado claptrap. Listen to an Oscar Peterson, Lang Lang or Arther Rubinstein recording and tell me how much pedal noise added to your appreciation of their brilliance!
Mike

[BogdanH]

...the average human listener may not detect the difference between a good quality 50mb sample and a much larger sample.
...

Absolutely agree!
Mostly, when we talk about the "quality" of piano sound here in forum, we actually don't mean if it's authentic or not -it's about if we personally like it or not. And it doesn't end here: our preference changes depending on music.
For example, for jazz music we might prefer more mellow piano sound... for classical pieces we prefer piano with more brightness... for blues (or boogie woogie) we might prefer more harsh sound, etc... simply because we associate certain sound with certain music genre.
But truth is, piano sound doesn't really depend on music genre.. it's about how we play it. That is, if Oscar Peterson and Jerry Lee Lewis would play on the same piano, it would sound differently. That is, if we wish to have Jerry Lee's sound, we don't need different piano voice: we need to play like Jerry Lee does (known as hammer fingers).
As Mike (above) said, it depends on player.

But in it's core, piano voice should sound like a piano and not as cheap imitation of it.

Bogdan

[gabrielschuck]

Sorry, folks... I really am very picky, aren't I?
I think it's because I'm visually impaired and have been listening to music and
sounds since I was a baby.
I am indeed a sound enthusiast. I won't say that I would feel comfortable hearing the pedal noise louder than the piano notes, but at a lower volume and almost imperceptible, it's acceptable to me, and I still believe it's part of the
voice, just like the sound of the hammer hitting the strings. But I respect those who think it's crazy.
What I meant to say is that it's impossible to have a pack with all these characteristics of a piano
voice (you have some of them, but not all). Considering the size of 216MB, I don't think it's excessive, considering the limitations of the YEM.
The fact is, if you look at the size of piano and other instrument libraries for Kontakt, you'll see they almost approach that of a real instrument. And you can customize the piano or any instrument the way you like it. For example, listen to a demo I made of a Kontakt piano library for the Yamaha CFX piano to understand what I'm trying to say:
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/ru1uaffr1rubo4rt67kvw/pianokontakt.mp3?rlkey=p9k6suicixpqgywh454l3ldvs&dl=1
If there were a piano pack for keyboards weighing 1 GB in size, then it would be absurd and there would be nothing special about it.

Yes, I'm really crazy. Just another little joke with another Kontakt library:
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/sce3bszs3a4luwl48qtyn/soprano.wav?rlkey=uokg8z10remqqcthr6ix1qrqj&dl=1

[BogdanH]

hi gabriel,
I'll try to me short this time.. 
Kontakt is a library and as such, it has endless (depends on creator) settings possibilities that we can choose from. But whatever settings we choose, we end with only one piano sound -which is the one we like.
What's needed is, we need to implement that particular sound (by using right samples from library) into voice inside YEM. Ok, YEM might not have all sound processing options that are in particular Kontakt library, but we don't need that many for piano anyway.
And I know that it is possible to fit that sound into 80-100MB voice and it will (it must actually) sound the same as in Kontakt -including pedal noise, if you wish (these noise samples only negligible increase total voice size).

Greetings,
Bogdan

[gabrielschuck]

And I know that it is possible to fit that sound into 80-100MB voice and it will (it must actually) sound the same as in Kontakt -including pedal noise, if you wish (these noise samples only negligible increase total voice size).

Setting aside whether the pedal noise is necessary or not, I must confess that I've never seen a piano pack with the pedal noise, that is, when the sustain pedal is pressed. Technically speaking, I have doubts if this would be possible in YEM. It seems that in the SFZ format, I can do this in case the MIDI event is of type CC64. Possibly the result won't be the same if converted to the SF2 format, which is older. I think YEM is limited in this regard. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Regards,
Gabriel

[mikf]

If someone in the audience coughs during a symphony that is also 'real', and if I listen hard enough and have great hearing I could maybe hear the sound of the cellist turning the page of the music......but if I am listening for those tiny extraneous sounds I am not listening to the music and the quality of the orchestra. So I am really missing the point.
Back in the 70s when home stereo became very popular, everyone was buying these huge speakers usually in relatively small rooms, and they all wanted to show off the quality of their new system. So you would be invited to their house and they would put on some piece of music, usually  far too loud, then tell you all the way through to listen to how you can hear every touch of the bow, or a pin drop, or every squeak of guitar strings.....
Hmmmm....it's music, not a sound test.
Mike

[BogdanH]

I must admit that my knowledge about midi is very limited (apart from what's inside styles) and so I have no idea if implementing pedal noise is possible. Probably not... or maybe if separate noise voice would be used in addition to piano voice, where noise voice would be triggered by pedal -I'm just thinking aloud here, because I really have no clue 
Other than that, I fully agree with what Mike just said.

Greetings,
Bogdan