Genos setup

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi Paul
I have looked on Amazon and can see the cables you put down
What is this about never go from amp to di box to speaker as you will damage them.
But I will be going from keyboard to di box and then to powered speakers.
Sorry paul I am a novice at this and i did not know the difference between balanced and unbalanced.Why is their not a standard!!


All the best
John

[Tommy 73]

I have made a bit of noise about Genos at this price point not having balanced outputs and Yamaha have only just catch up with every one else with the montage which now has balanced outputs....so unfortunately a Di will be needed and most probably in this case will hopfuly sort this problem out... 

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Thanks tom for your help
One last thing
What is it that you must not connect amp to speakers with di box in between,which could damage your gear with electrical terms I do not understand.
Came from Native Instruments pages.

If all ok as you have written I shall go for the Ebbtech  one you recommended as I believe cheap is cheap and you get what you pay for.
I also read that cheap ones like paul wants could alter your sound. Is that right ??  You cannot cut corners with these things.
Otherwise big thanks for your help
The Dxr8s are quality,I can say that as the stereo field is engulfing. Great for ambient music, like the Ozric Tentacles
At low and  medium volume the sound sweeps accross the speakers side to side with panache.
Also good taste In music you have. May the Pink Piggies fly!! . and the aero gozzers fly down the wires!!
You need to get Jean Michel Jarre London Docklands out next!!  I still have the VHs without a player!!,but I copied it ages ago.

All the best
John

[StuartR]

I have made a bit of noise about Genos at this price point not having balanced outputs and Yamaha have only just catch up with every one else with the montage which now has balanced outputs....so unfortunately a Di will be needed and most probably in this case will hopfuly sort this problem out...

INTO the Genos is still a prosumer class of device and thus the unbalanced outputs which fit better in a home environment. On another front the Genos touchscreen is much better than the one on my Montage.

[zionip]

Hi John,

I like the simplicity of explanation on balanced vs unbalanced audio cables at this site:
https://www.epiphan.com/blog/audio-cables-balanced-vs-unbalanced/

You mentioned:
"What is it that you must not connect amp to speakers with di box in between,which could damage your gear with electrical terms I do not understand."

Please note the following different Genos, cable, DI, mixer, amp, speaker configurations:

1.  Conventional setup with a mixer, power amp, and passive speakers:
Genos unbalanced outputs - unbalanced high Z 1/4-inch cables - DI boxes - balanced 1/4-inch cables, or XLR cables - in-house mixer - balanced cables - power amp - speaker cables - passive speakers

2.  Conventional setup with a mixer, and a pair of active near field monitor speakers or powered PA speakers:
Genos unbalanced outputs - unbalanced high Z 1/4-inch cables - DI boxes - balanced 1/4-inch cables, or XLR cables - in-house mixer - balanced cables - powered speakers.

3.  Your situation, without a mixer, just Genos and a pair of powered PA speakers:
Genos unbalanced outputs - unbalanced high Z 1/4-inch cables - DI boxes - balanced 1/4-inch cables, or XLR cables - powered speakers.

From the above, you can see that there is no DI boxes in between a power amp and a pair of passive speakers.  As long as the DI boxes are used before the amp, not in between the amp and the speakers, you should be fine.  The only links between power amp and passive speakers should only be speaker cables.

Thanks,
Paul

[Tommy 73]

Thanks tom for your help
One last thing
What is it that you must not connect amp to speakers with di box in between,which could damage your gear with electrical terms I do not understand.
Came from Native Instruments pages.

If all ok as you have written I shall go for the Ebbtech  one you recommended as I believe cheap is cheap and you get what you pay for.
I also read that cheap ones like paul wants could alter your sound. Is that right ??  You cannot cut corners with these things.
Otherwise big thanks for your help
The Dxr8s are quality,I can say that as the stereo field is engulfing. Great for ambient music, like the Ozric Tentacles
At low and  medium volume the sound sweeps accross the speakers side to side with panache.
Also good taste In music you have. May the Pink Piggies fly!! . and the aero gozzers fly down the wires!!
You need to get Jean Michel Jarre London Docklands out next!!  I still have the VHs without a player!!,but I copied it ages ago.

All the best
John

you are fine john paul has you coverd here...keep going it will be worth it when you sort this niggly problem out...Ozric Tentacles I remember them my mate use to play them in the van on the way to a gig with me stuffed in the back with the drum kit and the PA etc great stuff...and Gilmour well he still cuts it today bloody amazing ...and the  Jarre was only playing some on the keys this after noon...as i was born in the 70's I still loved the music from then as mother always had it on ...i use to drive my grandparents crazy playing there EX70 organ with my old keyboard midi in playing Mike oldfield over and over...when you study the recordings of that time there was some real magic taking place there.. ..even the hi-Rez mastering of today has something missing compared to the 70's.....humm tape saturation I guess lol...good luck John hope it works out I'll keep an eye if you still have problems on here 😊

[Tommy 73]

INTO the Genos is still a prosumer class of device and thus the unbalanced outputs which fit better in a home environment. On another front the Genos touchscreen is much better than the one on my Montage.

not really should have balanced at this level and the montage screen.. yes we just missed the Genos nice big one and would of been nice if they angled it like Genos ...next time perhaps 😊

[zionip]

Hi John,

You mentioned:
"If all ok as you have written I shall go for the Ebbtech one you recommended as I believe cheap is cheap and you get what you pay for.  I also read that cheap ones like paul wants could alter your sound. Is that right ??  You cannot cut corners with these things."

You seemed to be mixing up the hum/buzz eliminator and the direct boxes.  The following discussion thread is a good start:
http://www.harmonycentral.com/forum/forum/LivePerformanceCategory/acapella-33/372800-

I ordered the $38 "Rolls HE18 Buzz Off Dual Channel Hum & Buzz eliminator" to see if it removes hums as claimed, due to good Amazon user reviews.  I also ordered the Radial ProD2 Passive 2 Channel Direct Box, which I think is more useful to me because it is reported to be significantly better passive DI box than the Whirlwind Imp 2 that I used before.

I will let you know the testing results when I receive them.

Thanks,
Paul

[Tommy 73]

RADIAL PRO D2....all day long ....Stereo direct box designed for keyboards
Smooth, warm sound rounds out digital edge
Able to handle huge transients without choking.😊

[attachment deleted by admin]

[Tommy 73]

Because I'm making reference to the Radial Pro D2 one other thing to consider if you don't have much experience here then once you have your left & right jack cables coming from the Genos into the Radial Pro D2... then from there your left & right XLR outputs (Pro D2).. into the "left input no.1" XLR on DXR8 and the "right input no.1" XLR on the DXR8 you will probably find you will need to switch on Both L&R DXR's the small toggle switch from "Line" into the up position "Mic" when using the Mic line level from the Pro D2 ....at this point before you switch on the power...turn the Genos Master panel volume right down to "0" and gently bring the volume up on the Genos in this new configeration....as for the DXR's volume setting this will depend on how close you are to them but equally the same level settings on both DXR's ...😊

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[zionip]

Hi Tommy,

It is very nice of you to even mention these small details to help John out.

The key is always turn on Genos first, before turning on the active speakers.  This way guarantees no annoying popping sound from the speakers when we power Genos on.

It is of course a best practice to minimize Genos master volume control when powering it up.

I actually tested the Genos with different master volume levels when powered on.  Yamaha did a good job in designing the power on process of Genos, I found that it never really introduced any loud pop sounds to the already on external speakers.  I could only hear some sort of white noise when the master volume knob of Genos was set past 12 o'clock position when powered on with the already on external speakers, but no loud pops occurred. 

Your mileage may vary though due to different designs of speakers, so please do not hold me responsible for any unfavorable testing results on your side. 

Thanks,
Paul

[Tommy 73]

Thanks Paul all ways good to know ...i was setting up some Yamaha DSR's yesterday for a friends band Rig and after the afternoon sound checks when we finished one of the members from the hotel in bournmouth who was in a rush trying to lock the function room before we came back for the evening gig and when I said power down to my guitar buddy this chap from the hotel only jumped in pulled the bloody mains wall plug from the rig and after a sharp word from me panicked and promptly switched it back on again ....well can you imagen the bang from the PA ..not good ...i try to follow good habits I guess you never know with electronic and good to here the information has been helpful   

[zionip]

Ha Ha, Tommy,

The guy you mentioned made 2 big mistakes in a row.  Maybe you should consider buying some uninterrupted power supply (UPS) for all of your equipment.

Cheers,
Paul

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi Paul
I would like to know if your buzz /hum eliminator gets rid of that zzzzzbuzz or do they call it hum ??
By using unbalanced cables and balanced to the speakers.
The Ebbtech seems to be the jobby  as we only want to elliminate the annoyance, not to change the sound from the speakers In any way
I am sorry if I am a little naive with all of this as if you are not electricall minded , it can be a headache sorting  out electrical cockroaches in the wires.

All the best
John

[Marsh]

Hi john I have the same set up as yourself, like you I was experiencing the same problems I have installed a behringer micro hd 400 hum destroyer on short leads from keyboard then longer jack to jack leads to drx8 first speaker then joined the other drx via a xlr male to xlr femail cable from the link out on speaker with the leads from keyboard to mic/line on second speaker then set DSp switches to off and stereo to on . The sound from these speakers is fantastic with a little noise from the cooling fans but no buzz/ hiss my room size is 27x12 hope this helps you.    Marshall

[soryt]

simple , turn up volume on the Genos to 75/80 %  and lower your Pa output 

Soryt 

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

I reckon Soryt Is on the button!!

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi Marshall
I was beginning to think I was the only one with this set up. At first I thought these were total overkill and now I have changed my mind.
Apart from the teething problems now is the time to look at the sound seriously. Looks daunting at the moment.
These speakers give so much detail , but I am having beginners problems in getting the eq right on the button.
It is a case, I know of trial and error, but these speakers can be heavy on your ears If the bass is too much and not balanced.
The thing I do notice with the Genos as with the Tyros the kick drums are too loud and sometimes monopolise the drum channel.
So I will go to the edit Channell and lower them for certain styles and put them In the user section.
My Vst's sound fantastic as well.
I was was playing around with the acoustic concert guitar and being new to this Genos with the uprated sounds It is hard to get the touch right and  acoustic Instruments  can get a little droney or bassy hiding the sound of the strings. It is all down to eq and things like that. It will take me some time as It Is a new ball game with better speakers than the Genos ones.
These DXR's are In the premier league!! for a Genios
Keep In touch Marshall as we can swap ideas.


All the Best
John

[zionip]

Hi Paul
I would like to know if your buzz /hum eliminator gets rid of that zzzzzbuzz or do they call it hum ??
By using unbalanced cables and balanced to the speakers.
The Ebbtech seems to be the jobby  as we only want to elliminate the annoyance, not to change the sound from the speakers In any way
I am sorry if I am a little naive with all of this as if you are not electricall minded , it can be a headache sorting  out electrical cockroaches in the wires.

All the best
John

Hi John,

I used the following 2 devices in testing hum / buzz elimination between Genos and powered speakers (I used a Zoom H4N recorder instead):

Rolls HE18 Buzz Off hum eliminator, $38 from Amazon (don't buy it, it was horrible in my test):
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004E4LU0W/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o05_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Radial ProD2 stereo direct box, $150 from Amazon:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000B85FV0/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Input side of these devices:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/sTqcqL2aKRdrNtZP2

Output side of these devices:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/40OUNkIySlTNrdb93

I used the following cables for the testing:
2 x Fender California Series Instrument cable (unbalanced 1/4 inch)
2 x Livewire Advantage balanced cable (balanced 1/4 inch)
2 x Whirlwind MK4 Series XLR microphone cable (balanced XLR)
https://photos.app.goo.gl/BZMMOSGG1uXLY7w03

I used a Zoom H4N recorder instead of a pair of powered speakers so I can load up the recorded MP3 files on Audacity to show the differences.

The master volume of Genos stayed at 12 o'clock position for all tests.  The recording level on the Zoom H4N recorder remained the same during the tests.  I used the Genos demo song "Orchestral" as testing source.

The main left output of Genos connects to a green Fender guitar cable, and the main right output connects to a red Fender guitar cable:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/aofPxLGCMfHkbYwy1

Scene 1:
Genos -> unbalanced 1/4 inch cables (Fender guitar cables) -> Zoom H4N / powered speakers
https://photos.app.goo.gl/066SaeP9ycQrJKXg1
The signal was very hot, loud, and clear, with some high frequency hissing noticeable through the monitoring headphones on the Zoom H4N.  However, the high pitched hissing is not noticed on actual recording.
The recorded MP3 file: 
https://drive.google.com/file/d/13Vq-JtGqw3RFOFkr0bQ-RbGUvp_m27pV/view?usp=sharing

Scene 2:
Genos -> unbalanced 1/4 inch cables -> Rolls Buzz eliminator -> balanced 1/4 inch cables -> Zoom H4N / powered speakers
https://photos.app.goo.gl/QVCaGt35vTE3B0D43
The cheap Rolls Buzz elminator actually introduced loud buzzes, same results with different sets of balanced cables - it is useless, and I will return it.  I did not order the Ebtech hum eliminator, which has balanced XLR outputs.

Scene 3:
Genos -> unbalanced 1/4 inch cables -> Radial ProD2 stereo direct box -> balanced XLR microphone cables -> Zoom H4N / powered speakers
https://photos.app.goo.gl/xpyyRFJ325k1tGqs2
The signal was very quiet, a tiny bit of high pitched hissing still noticeable through the monitoring headphones on the
Zoom H4N, but a lot quieter than scene 1.
The recorded MP3 file: 
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-pzyAQNDiIcZBFBNm6vuOtSQmzzyGmO2/view?usp=sharing

Visual comparison of audio signals between Scene 3 and Scene 1:
Scene 3 on the left (with Radial ProD2 stereo direct box) and Scene1 on the right (Genos with good unbalanced cables only)
https://photos.app.goo.gl/2TWSpwhlXbhErFpK2

I could not hear any high pitched hissing on the two MP3 files.  However, during the recording sessions, through a pair of monitoring headphones I could hear the signals much cleaner through the Radial ProD2 stereo direct box.

I highly recommend the Radial ProD2 stereo direct box as a solution to minimize your speaker hums situation.  If you are satisfied with reduced volumes on your powered speakers, you can just stick to your current setup.  BTW, the audio quality US$25 Fender unbalanced 1/4 inch California Series Instrument cable is not bad at all.  I used 2 of these cables to record stereo tracks directly from Genos with good results.

I am not going to test Ebtech hum eliminator since I prefer the much more versatile Radial ProD2 stereo direct box (with additional individual thru, -15dB pad, and ground lift).

Thanks,
Paul

[Tommy 73]

Hi John,

I used the following 2 devices in testing hum / buzz elimination between Genos and powered speakers (I used a Zoom H4N recorder instead):

Rolls HE18 Buzz Off hum eliminator, $38 from Amazon (don't buy it, it was horrible in my test):
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004E4LU0W/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o05_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Radial ProD2 stero direct box, $150 from Amazon:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000B85FV0/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Input side of these devices:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/sTqcqL2aKRdrNtZP2

Output side of these devices:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/40OUNkIySlTNrdb93

I used the following cables for the testing:
2 x Fender California Series Instrument cable (unbalanced 1/4 inch)
2 x Livewire Advantage balanced cable (balanced 1/4 inch)
2 x Whirlwind MK4 Series XLR microphone cable (balanced XLR)
https://photos.app.goo.gl/BZMMOSGG1uXLY7w03

I used a Zoom H4N recorder instead of a pair of powered speakers so I can load up the recorded MP3 files on Audacity to show the differences.

The master volume of Genos stayed at 12 o'clock position for all tests.  The recording level on the Zoom H4N recorder remained the same during the tests.  I used the Genos demo song "Orchestral" as testing source.

The main left output of Genos connects to a green Fender guitar cable, and the main right output connects to a red Fender guitar cable:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/aofPxLGCMfHkbYwy1

Scene 1:
Genos -> unbalanced 1/4 inch cables (Fender guitar cables) -> Zoom H4N / powered speakers
https://photos.app.goo.gl/066SaeP9ycQrJKXg1
The signal was very hot, loud, and clear, with some high frequency hissing noticeable through the monitoring headphones on the Zoom H4N.  However, the high pitched hissing is not noticed on
actual recording.
The recorded MP3 file: 
https://drive.google.com/file/d/13Vq-JtGqw3RFOFkr0bQ-RbGUvp_m27pV/view?usp=sharing

Scene 2:
Genos -> unbalanced 1/4 inch cables -> Rolls Buzz eliminator -> balanced 1/4 inch cables -> Zoom H4N / powered speakers
https://photos.app.goo.gl/QVCaGt35vTE3B0D43
The cheap Rolls Buzz elminator actually introduced loud buzzes, same results with different sets of balanced cables - it is useless, and I will return it.  I did not order the Ebtech hum eliminator, which
has balanced XLR outputs.

Scene 3:
Genos -> unbalanced 1/4 inch cables -> Radial ProD2 stereo direct box -> balanced XLR microphone cables -> Zoom H4N / powered speakers
https://photos.app.goo.gl/xpyyRFJ325k1tGqs2
The signal was very quiet, a tiny bit of high pitched hissing still noticeable through the monitoring headphones on the
Zoom H4N, but a lot quieter than scene 1.
The recorded MP3 file: 
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-pzyAQNDiIcZBFBNm6vuOtSQmzzyGmO2/view?usp=sharing

Visual comparison of audio signals between Scene 3 and Scene 1:
Scene 3 on the left (with Radial ProD2 stereo direct box) and Scene1 on the right (Genos with good unbalanced cables only)
https://photos.app.goo.gl/2TWSpwhlXbhErFpK2

I could not hear any high pitched hissing on the two MP3 files.  However, during the recording sessions, through a pair of monitoring headphones I could hear the signals much cleaner through the Radial ProD2 stereo direct box.

I highly recommend the Radial ProD2 stereo direct box as a solution to minimize your speaker hums situation.  If you are satisfied with reduced volumes on your powered speakers, you can just stick to your current setup.  BTW, the audio quality US$25 Fender unbalanced 1/4 inch California Series Instrument cable is not bad at all.  I used 2 of these cables to record stereo tracks directly from Genos with good results.

I am not going to test Ebtech hum eliminator since I prefer the much more versatile Radial ProD2 stereo direct box (with additional individual thru, -15dB pad, and ground lift).

Thanks,
Paul

Thanks Paul for confirming my recommendation the Radial Pro D2 is the one to complement the investment....A Note to "YAMAHA" ...you where noticeably late to the scene with balanced outputs on your high end synthesizers perhaps you will remember to correct this with Genos2 as this will so deserves to have "balanced outputs" next time ...all the best 

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi to all
In the end  a cheap Behringer hum eliminator for £20 solved the buzz or hum .
I can recommend one as It has done Its job ever since this thread started.
If interested In one Amazon has them.

Big thanks to everyone who tried to help me, Much appreciated

All the best
John

[EB5AGV]

Hi to all
In the end  a cheap Behringer hum eliminator for £20 solved the buzz or hum .
I can recommend one as It has done Its job ever since this thread started.
If interested In one Amazon has them.

Big thanks to everyone who tried to help me, Much appreciated

All the best
John

Could you share the exact model with us? 

Jose

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi Hose
23 euros with Amazon Spain De
Non Balanced cable In as Genos etc  unbalanced outs and balanced cable out and wherever the rest take you. Kills the hum for me.

Here it is and It does the job

All the best
john

[attachment deleted by admin]

[valimaties]

Hi Uli.
I paste a review from a client from sweetwater:

This unit is made of very light gauge metal and the connectors are of very low quality. If you plug/unplug cables into this frequently you will eventually end up with intermittent connections. It does eliminate hum at times but other times it actually boosts it (?) I have Behringer processing gear that has served me very well for many years through many gigs without issues but this is absolutely NOT a good buy. Save up and buy the Ebtech model.

by Frobie from Findlay, OH   on May 11, 2015
Music background: Active, gigging, Bassist- Live Sound Engineer

Is it true?! 

I really want to buy a hum destroyer, too, but I searched for reviews on each piece of electronics I want to buy, so ...
Also, he said about Ebtech model, but Paul said it is not a good choice. And sincerely, 180 euros is too much for me, for Radial Pro D2...

Thanks,
Vali

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi Val

That £20 Behringer HD stop the buzz on my DXR speakers.
It is a sturdy well built box and no electric plugs to bother about . Just plug your Genos  Outs to In on Behringer HD and out to powered speakers.
Unbalanced out lead from the Genos and the Behringer HD balances the signal so you can either use XLR to TRS jack or Stereo TRS jack to jack balanced.
I am over the moon with It. The price is a drop In the Ocean

I do not keep unplugging and plugging It In as It Is In my room permanently plugged In. For me It destroys that horrible hum /buzz
I suppose If you gig you may need something more expensive. I am not an expert In electrics and would probably blow up the Electric Grid!!

All the best
John