Genos setup

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi
The reason I put this query here is this section Is mostly looked at and I am getting frustrated

The Genos is ok.
The problem is my new Yamaha DXR8 speakers.
I am getting a buzz from them as they are higher powered and sound great at low volume.

I plug one DXR 8 In to the mains on a six gang surge protection unit  and no Buzz when turning up speakers.
I plug the other one In and the Buzz starts.
I cannot understand this as they are both from the same outlet
Do all Pa speakers buzz when turning them up???
I thought It was my computers causing this at first , but I whittled them down to just the two speakers in the same board from the same outlet.
Anyone got any ideas as I do not want to pay out another £50 to see if a mains cleaner works .
But that will not stop ground loops I am told.
Are the Dxr 8 just too powerful for a 10ft x 10ft room even at low volume, but they do sound nice and full bodied and clear.

All the best
John

[zionip]

Hi
The reason I put this query here is this section Is mostly looked at and I am getting frustrated

The Genos is ok.
The problem is my new Yamaha DXR8 speakers.
I am getting a buzz from them as they are higher powered and sound great at low volume.

I plug one DXR 8 In to the mains on a six gang surge protection unit  and no Buzz when turning up speakers.
I plug the other one In and the Buzz starts.
I cannot understand this as they are both from the same outlet
Do all Pa speakers buzz when turning them up???
I thought It was my computers causing this at first , but I whittled them down to just the two speakers in the same board from the same outlet.
Anyone got any ideas as I do not want to pay out another £50 to see if a mains cleaner works .
But that will not stop ground loops I am told.
Are the Dxr 8 just too powerful for a 10ft x 10ft room even at low volume, but they do sound nice and full bodied and clear.

All the best
John

Hi John,

I had similar problem before, and the cause was a bad unbalanced cable with 1/4 inch jacks.  Once the cable was replaced, the hums went away.  Ideally if you use balanced connections for your equipment if supported, hums and buzz will be minimized.

For overall cleaner sounds you may need a power conditioner like this Furman M-8Dx Merit Series Power Conditioning, 15 Amp, 9 Outlets with Wall Wart Spacing, Pullout Lights, Digital Voltmeter:
https://www.amazon.com/Furman-Conditioning-Outlets-Spacing-Voltmeter/dp/B00145EVJ6/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?s=musical-instruments&ie=UTF8&qid=1511433208&sr=1-1-spons&keywords=power+conditioner+rack+mount&psc=1

Yes, even high quality PA system could be noisy.  Many years ago I used a very high quality Crown power amp with a pair of Community PA speakers and they were loud without hums or buzz.  I also used 2 big Roland KC-500 keyboard amps (the predecessor of KC-550) with great results at lower volume levels, but when pushed for very high volume levels, I could hear some hums.

Thanks,
Paul

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi Paul

I have tried two sets of speaker cable of high quality and I get the same buzz---It Is not the leads to the speakers-. I wished It was as simple as your situation.
The Dxr8,s are quite powerfull amps and I do not know whether a buzz is normal for pa speakers.
I can eliminate the buzz if I turn the speakers just under a quarter volume and turn the Genos up to half way and that is quite a volume.
So I do not know whether you should be happy with that and live with the interference.
It is odd that one speaker plugged In is clear as a bell even at full volume,but plug the other in the same board and oulet  and the buzz returns
I even swapped around the order of plugging in the speakers and the same happens.
How can two powered speakers plugged into the same board cause a ground loop??
Would a mains conditioner from Maplins do the job. About £40 uk money


All the best
John

[DavidB]

How can two powere speakers plugged into the same board cause a ground loop??

Because you also need to take into account the mains ground and how that might be connected internally in both the Keyboard and each speaker. You are then creating a loop with the shield on the audio cables... potentially. Although I would expect them to be isolated within the Genos. I never had to suffer a hum from my Tyros to my Stagepas 300, but I haven't tried the Genos. In any event, it's a different set up with the keyboard feeding one amplifier which then feeds both speakers. I think in your case, each speaker has it's own amp right?

I thought you had decided against the DXR's and were going for the HS8's?

Hope you get it solved, but I suspect you will end up putting some sort of ground loop isolation in place if you keep this set up

Best wishes,

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi Dave

I was going for Hs8's, but was recommended the Dxr8's
The sound quality is amazing off of these speakers.I kept my Tapco monitors for mixing.

Each Dxr has It's own amp.
The only thing I can think of is a mains conditioner, but that may be no good for what may be a ground loop. I am lost with all this loop stuff.
The guy at yamaha guy said that the Dxr8's are quality. I suppose they would say that.

Al the best
John

[zionip]

Hi John,

If this is not a cable issue, then I would recommend you to try and order a power conditioner, which provides much cleaner sounds because this kind of product purifies and stabilizes the electric current and in most cases gets rid of hums and buzz entirely.  Make sure you connect the power conditioner straight to a known clean wall socket and connect your equipment to it, and buy it from a place with good return policy just in case it does not solve your problem.

I have an old Juice Goose power distribution center with pull out lights and line conditioning, very reliable and convenient:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/tyPpZXmqW88GRtin1

I sincerely hope that you can resolve your problem very soon.

Thanks,
Paul

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi paul
one last thing
Can two poweed speakers in the same board to same outlet cause a ground loop
I will of course try Maplins for that mains conditioner, but ask them about returns ,just in case.

All the best
john

[zionip]

Hi paul
one last thing
Can two poweed speakers in the same board to same outlet cause a ground loop
I will of course try Maplins for that mains conditioner, but ask them about returns ,just in case.

All the best
john

Hi John,

Did you test the speakers individually just on its own?  Say, power on speaker A only, no problem.  Then power off speaker A, power on speaker B only, still no problem?  I only know that when you powered on both, the hums began.

Thanks,
Paul

[zionip]

Looked at the specs of Yamaha DXR8 powered PA speakers, they are definitely above the specs of HS8 near field monitors.  The DXR8s are much louder, more flexible, ready for gigs, also quite a bit more expensive.

Paul

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi Paul

I plugged In Speaker A  with leads attached to the genos and no buzz.
I plugged In speaker B and I get the buzz.

I reversed this and plugged in speaker B first no buzz and then speaker A and the buzz returned again.

This is what baffles me!!

All the best
John

[zionip]

Hi Paul

I plugged In Speaker A  with leads attached to the genos and no buzz.
I plugged In speaker B and I get the buzz.

I reversed this and plugged in speaker B first no buzz and then speaker A and the buzz returned again.

This is what baffles me!!

All the best
John

OK, the picture is a bit clearer now.

Could it be your Genos introduced the noise?  Did you test each individual main output of Genos for noise level one at a time?

I noticed my Genos was very noise in audio recording when I connected a Zoom H4N recorder to the unbalanced stereo main out of the Genos.  The GNS-MS01 speaker system was extremely clean though, but it cannot match the power and tonal performance of the DXR8s.  I connected Genos stereo main outputs to an old pair of 20w per side powered Yamaha MS202ii speakers and they sounded clean though.

Paul

[markstyles]

One thing to try is get all equipment, plugged into a powerstrip on same AC socket..  Since you did your experiment,  it implies the problem is something to do with amp, speakers, cable, rather than your kbd..  Try a different kbd.. Might be one of the cables

An old trick is to 'lift the ground'.  That is get those (in USA) three prong adapters, and cut of the grounding plug..  Do get the buzz if you plug a different kbd into it?... 

A UPS (uninterruptible power   supply) is a good idea..  It takes in AC, and stores it in a battery.. and then power is siphoned off the battery.. Helps solve some problem. Great for computers too.  If AC varies too much.  It keeps the Electricity supply clean and consistent.  Also if power fails, the UPS will run for several minutes, before the battery is drained.. Enough to shut off computers properly, not such a worry for kids, but it's an extra precaution..

[zionip]

A UPS (uninterruptible power   supply) is a good idea..  It takes in AC, and stores it in a battery.. and then power is siphoned off the battery.. Helps solve some problem. Great for computers too.  If AC varies too much.  It keeps the Electricity supply clean and consistent.  Also if power fails, the UPS will run for several minutes, before the battery is drained.. Enough to shut off computers properly, not such a worry for kids, but it's an extra precaution..

Great idea of UPS.

I had the experience of several APC UPSes went out of order in a couple of years due to battery failures.  I found this Tripp-Lite SmartPro LCD 120V 1200VA 700W Line-Interactive UPS very affordable (I found lower price locally), reliable, and long lasting, with relatively large capacity:
https://www.tripplite.com/smartpro-lcd-120v-1200va-700w-line-interactive-ups-avr-2u-rack-tower-lcd-usb-db9-serial-8-outlets~SMART1200LCD/
https://www.amazon.com/Tripp-Lite-SMART1500LCD-Smartpro-LINE-Interactive-Outlets/dp/B01APS0QV4/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1511441656&sr=8-2-fkmr0&keywords=Tripplite+SmartPro+LCD+120V+1200VA+700W+Line-Interactive+UPS

Thanks,
Paul

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi Paul

I now have tried one speaker and as soon as the keyboard is plugged in  the buzz is there .
So It seems whatever i plug in after the first speaker the buzz starts.

all the best
John

[zionip]

Hi Paul

I now have tried one speaker and as soon as the keyboard is plugged in  the buzz is there .
So It seems whatever i plug in after the first speaker the buzz starts.

all the best
John

Hi John,

Your test indicates that your Genos might have been plugged into a noisy socket.  You will have the best results when your Genos is connected to a power conditioner / UPS to make it quiet.

Paul

[alans]

Hi John

Pleased to read you've got your Genos,but not pleased to hear of your problems,I know you had high expectations of your new setup and it is frustrating for you, hope you can find a solution for this as you have invested a lot to get the sound you wanted.

Best wishes

Alan

[StuartR]

Great idea of UPS.

I had the experience of several APC UPSes went out of order in a couple of years due to battery failures.  I found this Tripp-Lite SmartPro LCD 120V 1200VA 700W Line-Interactive UPS very affordable (I found lower price locally), reliable, and long lasting, with relatively large capacity:
https://www.tripplite.com/smartpro-lcd-120v-1200va-700w-line-interactive-ups-avr-2u-rack-tower-lcd-usb-db9-serial-8-outlets~SMART1200LCD/
https://www.amazon.com/Tripp-Lite-SMART1500LCD-Smartpro-LINE-Interactive-Outlets/dp/B01APS0QV4/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1511441656&sr=8-2-fkmr0&keywords=Tripplite+SmartPro+LCD+120V+1200VA+700W+Line-Interactive+UPS

Thanks,
Paul

Be mindful of PFC (active power factor correction) when selecting a UPS. A lot of switching power supplies use PFC and would not be able to deliver their rated load if connected to a UPS that didn't supply true sinewave, PFC power. I have no idea whether Yamaha uses this type of switching power supply in their musical instruments.

[zionip]

Be mindful of PFC (active power factor correction) when selecting a UPS. A lot of switching power supplies use PFC and would not be able to deliver their rated load if connected to a UPS that didn't supply true sinewave, PFC power. I have no idea whether Yamaha uses this type of switching power supply in their musical instruments.

You have a point, StuartR.

So should we just consider a power conditioner a safer option for the Genos to reduce hums?

Thanks,
Paul

[StuartR]

You have a point, StuartR.

So should we just consider a power conditioner a safer option for the Genos to reduce hums?

Thanks,
Paul

Tracking down the source of a "hum" can challenging. I presume that unbalanced cables are being used to connect the Genos to the active speakers? The length and proximity to other cabling can be a factor in that case. It seems less likely to me that the AC mains is noisy but perhaps I'm spoiled by what we have here in the U.S.

[voodoo]

The safest solution is a pair of DI-boxes to cut the ground loop.

I had similar trouble with a pair of Bose L1 compact. They tend to produce a hum when power supply is not "right".

[StuartR]

The safest solution is a pair of DI-boxes to cut the ground loop.

I had similar trouble with a pair of Bose L1 compact. They tend to produce a hum when power supply is not "right".

Bingo. They're cheap. Use short unbalanced cables to and from the direct boxes to your Genos and speakers and whatever length balanced cables between the two DI boxes.

[zionip]

The safest solution is a pair of DI-boxes to cut the ground loop.

I had similar trouble with a pair of Bose L1 compact. They tend to produce a hum when power supply is not "right".

Which direct boxes would you recommend?  Active vs passive?

I used to use Whirlwind IMP 2 1-channel instrument direct boxes on stage and connected them to in-house PA system, but tthey are passive.  The active direct boxes are generally not cheap.

Paul

[zionip]

It looks like a pair of Countryman Type 85 active direct boxes, each costs about $179, should be very good in John's scenario:
https://www.gearank.com/guides/di-box

$154 with free shipping online:
https://www.amazon.com/Countryman-DT85-Type-Direct-Black/dp/B00BBVXW16/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?s=musical-instruments&ie=UTF8&qid=1511445734&sr=1-1-fkmr0&keywords=Countryman+Type+85+active+direct+box

John will have to find a good price in UK.

Wow, this thing is hard to find in UK, and similar products are much more expensive in UK than US.

Paul

[pjd]

Which direct boxes would you recommend?  Active vs passive?

I'm using an ART DualZDirect passive DI with my S950. It has phase inversion, ground lift, selectable attentuation and THRU for each channel. $40 USD. Genos costs enough.  I'm using the DualZDirect while awaiting the boatload of G. The ART feeds Mackie HR824mkI monitors.

There's going to be some signal loss through passive, but that's what gain staging is for. ART offers an active version of the same box for a little more money, $55 USD.

Hope this helps -- pj

[EileenL]

Hi John,
  Have you tried taking everything out of the anti surge sockets and just having the two speaker plugs in there. Are the speakers running along side a power cable.
On looking at the specs they do seem a little over kill for a small room Be fine for gigging.

[StuartR]

It looks like a pair of Countryman Type 85 active direct boxes, each costs about $179, should be very good in John's scenario:
https://www.gearank.com/guides/di-box

$154 with free shipping online:
https://www.amazon.com/Countryman-DT85-Type-Direct-Black/dp/B00BBVXW16/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?s=musical-instruments&ie=UTF8&qid=1511445734&sr=1-1-fkmr0&keywords=Countryman+Type+85+active+direct+box

John will have to find a good price in UK.

Wow, this thing is hard to find in UK, and similar products are much more expensive in UK than US.

Paul

Don't think you're gonna need active boxes. In fact, this may work fine. It's a dual box so you only need one. Cost is about $17 us. I used one of these with my Montage.

Pyle-Pro PDC22 Dual 1/4'' Instrument To Balanced & Unbalanced (1/4''/XLR) Direct Box https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00356J8KE/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_pUUfAb7ND7N25]https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00356J8KE/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_pUUfAb7ND7N25]Pyle-Pro PDC22 Dual 1/4'' Instrument To Balanced & Unbalanced (1/4''/XLR) Direct Box https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00356J8KE/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_pUUfAb7ND7N25

[tyrosman]

hi John what you could do is get contact spray and move the Jack lead in and out the socket and see if it clears the problem i have Yamaha msp 5 speakers do this on both speakers

[zionip]

Nice sharing on the lower priced direct boxes from so many members, really appreciate it.  That is collective wisdom.  I only had the experience with the Whirlwind IMP 2 passive DI.

Paul

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi Eileen
I have done what you have said Eileen  and also rang Yamaha for advice.
The guy at Yamaha said maybe a mains cleaner plug extension which you can get at maplins might get rid of the buzz or supress it more.
The weird thing Eileen is when I plug one DXR 8 In the socket of a surge protector board with the jack lead from speaker to Genos (Genos not turned on), I get all clear even at full volume on speaker.
As soon as I put the DXR8 on the other side in the plug socket the buzz starts
If I do the same in reverse the other speaker is clear and buzz again when the next speaker is plugged in.

Also when I plug one speaker in and the Genos plugged in I get the buzz again.

So I am in a rock and hard place at the moment

If I turn up the DXR 8's to about 15% volume and turn up the Genos to half way I get  quite a hefty volume and being 15% up the buzz is virtually gone
The quality of these speakers is second to none ,but you have to eq the base down .
It will take me some time to get the levels of everything perfect.

So should I accept that and carry on or is this acceptable for £1000 set of speakers.
I mulled over the idea of giving my speakers back to the Tipsters in exchange for some lower wattage speakers under thei 30day return policy.
By the way could the fans in the speakers being upsetting things.
This is another thing after they recommended the speakers, .Fans mean added noise ,but minimal, like an I7 computer tower stack.
I am at a loss what to really do as the speakers are not cheap.

All the best
John

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi Tyrosman

I will certainly give that a try.

Allt he best
John