Korg PA4X: An expensive mistake

[agoldstraw]

After a couple of months of owning (and enjoying) a pre-owned Tyros 4, I decided I wanted to upgrade my arranger. And after viewing a welter of YouTube videos, reading specs, manuals etc, I came to the conclusion that my next buy should be not a Yamaha Tyros 5 or Genos, but a Korg PA4X.

The reasoning behind this conclusion seemed solid enough. I'm a pro keys player, and the Korg seemed to offer an array of great sounds coupled with really flexible and (compared with the Yamaha arrangers) deep sound creation potential. In terms of the quality of its construction and materials, it looked far more 'professional' than the Tyros or Genos.

I eventually decided to take the plunge and went to an emporium in the North West of England which sells both Yamaha and Korg. The salesman absolutely backed my choice – the way he saw it, the Korg was for pro players using it live, the Yamaha mostly for people playing at home for pleasure.

The thing is, when I started actually playing the Korg, I was rather more underwhelmed than I thought I would be. Yet I still allowed myself to be talked into it. It would, the salesman argued, do everything the Tyros could times a million etc etc. If I didn't find exactly what I was looking for, sonically, on the spot, because of its greater flexibility, I could create that sound myself.

Fast-forward by two weeks of ownership, and I have a painful confession to make. I really don't like the Korg very much at all.

When I had the T4, it was like the musical equivalent of crack – I would get lost for hours playing with the orchestral sounds, being inspired; musical ideas would seem to come from nowhere.

The Korg just doesn't do that for me. Yes, it is significantly more flexible. Yes, it is significantly cheaper. But none of that really matters if the sounds are not as good. And...they just aren't.

For example, here's something I knocked up in less than a couple of hours on the T4...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0649n2xdQQ

In hours of fiddling, searching and experimenting, I haven't yet turned up more than a handful of sounds on the Korg which come close to the naturalness of most of the sounds on my old T4 (an instrument itself over seven years old, let's not forget).

So where does that leave me? I toyed with the idea of scoring a used T5-76 (the extra keys were a big reason for me wanting to change up from the T4), but I've decided to bite the bullet, move the Korg on and buy a Genos.

None of this is to say that the Korg isn't a good keyboard. However, much as it galls me to have to eat my words, it's not really in the same class as Genos, or even Tyros. If you're considering jumping on the Korg ship, please spend as much time as possible with it to make sure you're happy. I stupidly went against my gut feeling and it's proved an expensive mistake.

[Pianoman]

Is it not possible to just choose a style, then choose any voice, and just play a song?
It is not the Instrument that makes a musician sound good.
It is the musician that makes any old instrument sound good.

Best Regards,
Pianoman.

[zionip]

Hi agoldstraw,

Very nice testimony and nice playing by the way.

Have you got your Genos yet, or still waiting?

Paul

[agoldstraw]

Paul, I'll need to sell the Korg first, sadly!

Pianoman, it's not that I couldn't make some nice sounds with the Korg – I certainly could. But the inescapable conclusion is that the articulations available in the Korg voices, by and large, are nowhere near the quality of those in Tyros or Genos.

[stephenm52]

Enjoyable piece of music you posted.  Sorry to hear the Pa4x did not workout for you.  I've pretty much owned both Korg and Yamaha arrangers the last 10 years.  The Korg as great as it is, is a different animal than the Yamaha. 

[Joe H]

agoldstraw,

You story reminds me of the many posts by people who owned both the Motif and Tyros keyboards.  Synths with deep Voice editing will trap you into a routine of passing  the (many) hours... tweaking Voices while the arranger... will provide instant inspiration with it's Preset Voices and 8 part styles. 

So... the question becomes for anyone who is deciding between a synth or arranger; do you want to spend your time editing sounds or playing music?  Since some people would like to see Yamaha produce an arranger like Korg... a hybrid synth-arranger, I think there is great value in you sharing your story, perspective and experience here on this forum.

Regards,
Joe H

[Pianoman]

Hi Agoldstraw.

If you are Silicon Philharmonic, that's some lovely music there.

Best Regards,
Pianoman.

[usaraiya]

Agoldstraw,

There are people who love the Yamaha arrangers , and those that love the Korg arrangers, majority are one way or another.
The OS of Korg takes some getting used to, and you can make Korg sounds, sound really good, but it takes getting used to how to do it well.
There are very few who love both equally, and I am one of them. Use them both and you will find synergy, rather than the disappointment,  and learn stuff that each can do well superlatively. People who can get two KBs, I would say have Genos & PA4X! An excellent combination.



Uday

[Jeff Hollande]

Why cannot you return the Korg to your dealer and buy there a Genos instead ?

Jeff

[Gunnar Jonny]

I think we have to admit that Yamaha and Korg are two "different animals", and if we try to find exactly the same in both, even top of the range models, we're going to be very dissapointed.
I've heard low end keyboards sounding fantastic when played by talented musicans, and top end models sounding like a cheap toy for kids when played by people who call themselves for pros but not even are close to be.

I think both Genos and PA4X is really great keyboards, but as all other things in life, we have to get to know the horse before we can ride it to win a race. Sometime jockey and horse have to find new partners to get well together.
I would love to have both, plus Ketron as well. Maybe I will, some or another day ..... only wish they could be exactly like Technics ........

[Spirit of the old South]

Why cannot you return the Korg to your dealer and buy there a Genos instead ?

Jeff

Because that requires €2000?
a budget is a budget.
And there is a reason i dont own a Genos Yet.

It seems like the complaint is about the Pa4x sounds.
They have a different characteristic then the Yamaha sounds.
Which is mostly personal preference

Combined with the different operating system.
Which takes time to get used to.

But there must be some sounds he likes on the PA4x?
I have heared great stuff about the piano's E-piano's strings and Organs for example..


I guess he is in the same ship as me.
Start saving up for an upgrade to a Genos.
I already told my boss that i require a better Christmas bonus this year.

[Jeff Hollande]

Hi Gunnar Jonny,

You are absolutely right.👍

Korg and Yamaha keyboards are both pro arranger keyboards but completely different in use with a total different software structure.

Again, I do not understand why he cannot get his money back ?

When a customer is not happy with his new purchased goods he has the right ( by law ) to bring the product(s) back after 2 or 4 to 8 weeks after the purchasing date. Return period depends on the individual agreement.

Jeff

[Spirit of the old South]

Hi Gunnar Jonny,

You are absolutely right.👍

Korg and Yamaha keyboards are both pro arranger keyboards but completely different in use with a total different software structure.

Again, I do not understand why he cannot get his money back and buy there a Genos.

When a customer is not happy with his new purchased goods he has the right ( by law ) to bring the product(s) back after 2 or 4 to 8 weeks after the purchasing date. Return period depends on the individual agreement.

Jeff

Over here in Holland that grace period only works (2 weeks) if you bought the goods online
For the rest it is up to the kindness of the sales man. as you said the individual agreement
But that part is not backed up by laws. According to the law, if you buy something and it functions as it should, you are stuck with it.
Disliking the sound of something he should have tested before buying,
is not a reason for applying customer rights.

[Jeff Hollande]

Hi Spirit,

Bax Music e.g. has a return period of 60 days.
Oostendorp 30 days, I guess.

Best regards from Bergen op Zoom, Jeff

[agoldstraw]

Pianoman, yes, The Silicon Philharmonic is me

The shop in question would have _considered_ a return (since it was an in-store purchase, they are not obliged to here in the UK) within 14 days. Unfortunately, I have been on a tour in Germany for the last week, during which the allotted time elapsed. I didn't have a lot of spare time with the Korg during the days leading up to that as I was busy prepping material.

I suppose I could try throwing myself on their mercy, but a further complication is that to finance the Genos, I need to sell a further keyboard (I'm thinning the herd a little anyway), and it's quite a specialist one, so I want to do that privately rather than part-exchange it.

Don't get me wrong – it's not that the Korg is a bad keyboard, and there are quite a few sounds which are significantly better than my T4 – the pianos and electric pianos for sure; organ to a certain extent, though anyone expecting an equal of the CX3 module of the Kronos will be disappointed. But in terms of the orchestral sounds, there's no contest for me – Yamaha every time.

Operating system is different but I got used to it pretty quickly. I'm quite technically minded (I can program my Kurzweil PC361 fairly comfortably, for example). The one thing I did find irritating about the Korg is its insistence on different 'modes' for playing voices, playing arrangements, playing sequences. It seems an unnecessarily artificial construct.

[zionip]

But in terms of the orchestral sounds, there's no contest for me – Yamaha every time.

I really appreciate your view on this. 

I love using the Genos orchestral sounds with the Free Play styles in the Movie&Show style section.  There is a free Symphonic Russian Educational Style pack, which contains 18 styles for classical music and 2 for electronic music for PSR-S970, compatible to Genos:
http://download.yamaha.com/files/tcm:39-789784

Thanks,
Paul

[Jeff Hollande]

Thank you, Paul for the link ! 

Jeff

[zionip]

Thank you, Paul for the link ! 

Jeff

Hi Jeff,

You're welcome.

Actually all the free packs published at the following Yamaha web page are compatible to Genos because the PSR-S970 and Genos both use SWP70 tone generator:
https://usa.yamaha.com/products/musical_instruments/keyboards/arranger_workstations/psr-s970/vse.html#product-tabs

In fact, all PSR-S970 voice and style expansion packs are compatible to Genos and they are much cheaper than the Genos equivalent packs.  The Genos packs are more expensive due to the newer and better voices, and different marketing strategies.

Thanks,
Paul

[voodoo]

Thank you, Paul for the link ! 

Jeff

There are eight free packs available on this site:

  https://asia-latinamerica-mea.yamaha.com/en/products/musical_instruments/keyboards/arranger_workstations/psr-s970/vse.html#product-tabs

All should work on PSR and Genos. (Not all work on Tyros because of its older tone generator chip.)

Uli

[zionip]

There are eight free packs available on this site:

  https://asia-latinamerica-mea.yamaha.com/en/products/musical_instruments/keyboards/arranger_workstations/psr-s970/vse.html#product-tabs

All should work on PSR and Genos. (Not all work on Tyros because of its older tone generator chip.)

Uli

Thanks for the link, Uli.

Your link points to the Yamaha site with 2 more packs than the USA site, the "Sir Jude Nnam" and the "PSR-A2000 Oriental Pack".

I will try these new packs to see if I like any of these styles.

Thanks,
Paul

[Pianoman]

Agold straw, I feel for you man.

Jeff, above stated that one can return a product for up to 60 days in some countries.
That is true, but mostly if the product is defective.

I also agree with you that a product that is bought in house as opposed to being bought online is difficult to return, because one could have tested  the product to his/her hearts content before buying it.

However, any intelligent store would also have to look at the prospect of gaining a long term client by being reasonable, or losing one.

If the keyboard is in pristine condition, and one still has the original packaging, he wouldn't lose much money or have any difficulty in reselling it.

Any reasonable person would accept that we all make mistakes sometimes and shouldn't be crucified for them.
At this point, you have nothing to lose by talking to the dealer about it.

And if you indicate that you may be interested in buying another keyboard from him at a later date, that would make him even more amenable.
Good luck.

Best Regards,
Pianoman.

[markstyles]

Most stores have their own policy, and if it is stated clearly, that's what is..  Here in US, most stores are two weeks. Some charge a 15% restocking fee.  My first Tyros was a Tyros 4 from B&H Photo,  they have a 30 day policy, no questions asked return. I had to buy Tyros sight/sound unseen.   Most music stores in US, won't even carry an instrument as expensive as Genos. They can order it. 

I played a Pa4X, I wanted to like it, but just didn't..  Absolutely nothing wrong with it, just my personal taste.  To each his own..  Also I find more stores these days, just care about making the sale, don't care about a 'long term loyal customer'..

I'm also leery of salesmen, who talk too much, In some stores, the salesman, will basically say anything to make the sale..  Sorry you were disappointed.

[pjd]

Hello  Aidan --

Thanks for sending the link to "Later One Morning." Beautiful composition and playing!

I'm sorry to hear that the Pa4x didn't work out and now you face the real world issue of making another change. You have our empathy and support, having been in the same situation ourselves one time or another.

Thanks for passing along your experience.

-- pj

[WolfBack]

So... the question becomes for anyone who is deciding between a synth or arranger; do you want to spend your time editing sounds or playing music?

Τhat was the main reason I did not buy the Moxf for the first place. I love the voice editing stuff but, as amateur musician, I prefer the "ready to play" keyboard of PSR lines.
If a want a tweaked sound, I make those on my VST's, extracted as soundfonts and then I use those sounds on my PSR. Ιs not the quickest way, but it works fine!

In my country, korg outperform yamaha in sales but I do not understand why. I have not tried any korg so far, but I will try it sometime. I have the impression that korg is superior to the fact that you create styles more easily than using existing sounds.

[agoldstraw]

Hmm, I see someone has been doing a little (ahem) tidying up while I was away – not at my instigation, I might add.

However, hopefully without reopening a can of worms, I did want to add some clarification to my original remarks:

I am not saying the PA4X is a terrible keyboard. It clearly has some very strong points, and had I been looking to mostly accompany singers in a live duo situation with it, I'm sure it would be very good at that. The 'bread and butter' sounds such as the acoustic and electric pianos, organs and guitars are pretty good and in many cases probably better than those on Tyros or Genos.

However, my two main thoughts on using the T4 and then the PA4X have focused on mainly two things: a) The Silicon Philharmonic – just a little thing for my own amusement really, but then I'm a frustrated orchestrator! b) A Joni Mitchell tribute show which we're taking around the country next year. I will _mostly_ be playing acoustic or electric piano (covered by my Yamaha CP4) but there are songs where I will need to double guitars, add believable sax (think Wayne Shorter/Michael Brecker on Joni's later albums) and also some orchestral elements (the slow, later version of Both Sides Now, for example). For all these things, I need the most authentic sounds I can lay my hands on in hardware. Tyros/Genos has those – the PA4X, not quite so much – it's not that keyboard's strength.

Look, I'm old enough and big enough to put my hand up and say that for my particular purposes (and yes, tastes) I took a wrong turn. That's really all I was trying to say, and caution others against the dangers of hasty decisions.

[Gunnar Jonny]

........ I am not saying the PA4X is a terrible keyboard. It clearly has some very strong points, and had I been looking to mostly accompany singers in a live duo situation with it, I'm sure it would be very good at that. The 'bread and butter' sounds such as the acoustic and electric pianos, organs and guitars are pretty good and in many cases probably better than those on Tyros or Genos...........

Look, I'm old enough and big enough to put my hand up and say that for my particular purposes (and yes, tastes) I took a wrong turn. That's really all I was trying to say, and caution others against the dangers of hasty decisions.

Great post, and reasonable arguments.
If I lived in UK, I would buy your PA4X imediately, well, only if it is a 76 keys version..
Too much hassle to export/import, the Norwegian goverment is is worse that Yamaha when come to "milking the cow" till the last drop.

[Ingar]

Because that requires €2000?
a budget is a budget.
And there is a reason i dont own a Genos Yet.

Here in Norway we are fortunate enough to have 30 days of open purchase for such capital goods. If this does not match the expectations, we can return the item to the store and get the money back.

[Lloyd E]

I too made an expensive mistake in buying a Korg Pa4X. After having 3 models of the Tyros (2,4 and 5)
I found the Korg did not have voices that could not match the quality of Yamaha.
Everyone hears differently and so playing the Tyros models so long I believe my ears were so used to
the Tyros boards that the Korg did not sound as good.

The Korg is a terrific board and many, many Yamaha players has gone over to Korg and are happy,
There is no keyboard better than the rest because it's what your ears hear.  Lloyd

[stephenm52]

I too made an expensive mistake in buying a Korg Pa4X. After having 3 models of the Tyros (2,4 and 5)
I found the Korg did not have voices that could not match the quality of Yamaha.
Everyone hears differently and so playing the Tyros models so long I believe my ears were so used to
the Tyros boards that the Korg did not sound as good.

The Korg is a terrific board and many, many Yamaha players has gone over to Korg and are happy,
There is no keyboard better than the rest because it's what your ears hear.  Lloyd

Lloyd,  I think your last sentence says it bet "no keyboard is better than the rest, it's what your ears hear.

[travlin-easy]

Until two weeks ago, I had never heard a PA4X live and in person, never touched the keys of the PA4X. Now, I must say, it is an outstanding arranger keyboard, with many great sounds and features, but when it comes to styles and right hand sounds, I think the Yamaha wins hands down. That's just my perspective from a single, 1-hour encounter with the PA4X. I think that Yamaha's guitars are far superior, there are definitely more of them, I like Yamaha's stings, vibes and saxes much better than what I heard on the Korg. The Yamaha's sounds were far more polished and realistic, while the only attribute on the Korg was the drums and bass, which were excellent and very realistic, though I believe that with a bit of tuning, both would sound nearly identical in those categories.

As I sit here in front of the PC, writing this, with my trusty S-950 at my side, how I wish I were able to return to the world of musical entertainment, which I dearly loved doing for more than 5 decades. I got a telephone call from a young lady asking if I were returning to Marathon Key, Florida again this winter, and if I was, would I be able to perform for the resort's happy hour every Wednesday night. Unfortunately, I had to turn her down. I envy those such as Don Mason and Pianoman that are still out there performing on a nightly basis.

No is no perfect arranger keyboard, IMO - it does not exist, though Yamaha and Korg both have done remarkable jobs with their latest TOTL arrangers during the past year. The most important thing is the entertainer. If you are a good entertainer, you can have lots of fun and make a good living in this business using pretty much any TOTL arranger keyboard. If you are not a good entertainer, then all bets are off. Even the best arranger keyboard will not make you a good, or great, entertainer.

All the best,

Gary