Where is the thread about price point being the source for the negativity?

[maartenb]

Dear Moderators,

A couple of days ago I started a thread with my opinion about the price point being the reason for the higher than usual amount of negativity for the Genos. It was a response to a post from another member who wondered why there was so much negativity.

Now I can't find the thread anymore. It also doesn't come up in the search, and going to my profile and showing all my posts I can see that my post is not there anymore.

As far as I know I didn't break any forum rules with the post, and I haven't received any email from the moderators explaining the removal of the thread.

Dear moderators, I am puzzled.

Could you please explain why the thread was removed?

Thank you,


Maarten

[Lee Batchelor]

Maarten, I too noticed it was gone when I clicked its link in my emails. I don't know why it was deleted. There wasn't anything in the contents so controversial to cause such a move. Hmmm...?? Didn't it contain a lot of harmless speculation as to how Yamaha arrives at its price point? Sounds like ordinary shop talk to me  .

[Pianoman]

Dear Moderators,

A couple of days ago I started a thread with my opinion about the price point being the reason for the higher than usual amount of negativity for the Genos. It was a response to a post from another member who wondered why there was so much negativity.

Now I can't find the thread anymore. It also doesn't come up in the search, and going to my profile and showing all my posts I can see that my post is not there anymore.

As far as I know I didn't break any forum rules with the post, and I haven't received any email from the moderators explaining the removal of the thread.

Dear moderators, I am puzzled.

Could you please explain why the thread was removed?

Thank you,


Maarten

Just looked everywhere, it's true. Nowhere to be seen.
Puzzled too.

I did not find the discussion in the thread offensive in any way.

I found the original post that started your thread to be a deep, thoughtful, and intelligent analysis of how and why consumers make decisions.
Let's all hope that wisdom will prevail.

Best Regards,
Pianoman.

[Gunnar Jonny]

To remove a single post in a tread if it's offending etc. is fair enough. If so, moderator should at least make a remark about it.
But to remove complete treads as we've seen at this forum lately, is disrespectful to all who participate in it as well as rest of the members. 

[Tommy 73]

Humm....one wonders if there is a new meaning to the word "Tolerance"........could Tolerance now implie the lack of commitment to others point of view? ... most odd indeed...and still looking forward to playing the Genos after the official Genos event next week...the tape measure has been out pending a possible purchase and yes I can also understand some hesitation from others according to the high price.

[Marcus]

The price of the Genos must of went up somewhere. 

[DavidB]

I'm normally firmly of the attitude that moderators decisions should be respected and they shouldn't have to explain themselves.

However, in this instance I feel completely different because the decision to delete your thread makes no sense at all. I'm pretty sure it was still here when I looked early this morning but then I saw your post and couldn't believe it had gone. If someone made a wrong post on it, then by all means delete the post but to delete and entire thread throws doubt on every post made in it including the start.

So in this instance I do believe a public explanation is justified if for no other reason than to make it clear what is and isn't allowed.

[Toril S]

Very unsettling! What is this???

[Bachus]

Dear Moderators,

A couple of days ago I started a thread with my opinion about the price point being the reason for the higher than usual amount of negativity for the Genos. It was a response to a post from another member who wondered why there was so much negativity.

Now I can't find the thread anymore. It also doesn't come up in the search, and going to my profile and showing all my posts I can see that my post is not there anymore.

As far as I know I didn't break any forum rules with the post, and I haven't received any email from the moderators explaining the removal of the thread.

Dear moderators, I am puzzled.

Could you please explain why the thread was removed?

Thank you,


Maarten

Carefull Maarten, this post on itselves might be reason for a Bann.
Thats what happened to me, when posting in an identical situation and asking an ientical question..


I agree with you that removing of a post, witouth notice to the poster as to why it got removed is a "no go" on an open and honest forum like this...

I think the whole discussion was very very interesting and offered a lot of points of view about the Genos price point...


Another question, did your hair grow longer? Because in that case.. i was the person sitting behind you yesterday evening..

[alans]

Well I'm of the opinion that members are entitled to an explanation,if only a simple one,especially the OP (Maarten)

I saw nothing wrong with the main theme of the thread,the price point is after all a  very important consideration for most potential purchasers.

Alan

[Joe W]

I, too, remember this topic.  As an economist, I found it interesting -- all this discussion about how prices are determined and how keyboards should be marketed and what factors influence a person's decision to buy.  There have been a number of discussions like this since the Genos announcement, interesting and provocative, but, by and large, having nothing to do with the focus of this forum, which is "tutorial", education and assistance for Yamaha owners attempting to master their Yamaha keyboards.  We have had that focus for many years and have been successful as a forum for many years.  There is a reason we don't bring in other keyboards.  As soon as you do, people are arguing with one another trying to prove that they made the wise decision when they bought their keyboard.  On the other hand, someone asks a question, "How do I do this or that?" and someone provides an answer, "Here's how that works....".  No problems, no arguing, everybody's happy.

I don't actually remember whether I pulled the trigger on this topic or not.  I might very well have not because the discussion wasn't interesting, but because it wasn't helpful or relevant to this forum.  Rest assured that for several weeks now, the moderators have been discussing the changing nature of discussions and what we could do about it. A lot of people want to use the forum to inform Yamaha of what they are doing wrong and what they should be doing.  This forum, however, is for Yamaha owners, not for Yamaha Corp.  If you want to tell Yamaha anything, contact Yamaha.  If you like to debate and argue your position, go do it elsewhere.  If you are unhappy with how moderators are trying to moderate this forum, don't fret about it, just leave.  But, if you go to other forums and complain about how bad PSR Tutorial is and come back here and warn other members about the terrible things that will happen if they utter one wrong word, you are in the wrong place.

[Toril S]

Wise words, Joe! We sometimes get carried away, losing focus. The moderators have no easy job!

[Lee Batchelor]

No arguments from me, Joe. You're right about the purpose of this site: "How the heck do I do X, Y, or Z?" Those are the questions and discussions we need to focus on.

In theory, there should only be a handful of posts about the Genos because only a handful of folks have them, especially us Canadians who are the bottom of the list ! If I see a penguin in the South Pole playing a Genos before they arrive in Toronto, I'm really going to let Yamaha have it (LOL)!

[Bachus]

I, too, remember this topic.  As an economist, I found it interesting -- all this discussion about how prices are determined and how keyboards should be marketed and what factors influence a person's decision to buy.  There have been a number of discussions like this since the Genos announcement, interesting and provocative, but, by and large, having nothing to do with the focus of this forum, which is "tutorial", education and assistance for Yamaha owners attempting to master their Yamaha keyboards.  We have had that focus for many years and have been successful as a forum for many years.  There is a reason we don't bring in other keyboards.  As soon as you do, people are arguing with one another trying to prove that they made the wise decision when they bought their keyboard.  On the other hand, someone asks a question, "How do I do this or that?" and someone provides an answer, "Here's how that works....".  No problems, no arguing, everybody's happy.

I don't actually remember whether I pulled the trigger on this topic or not.  I might very well have not because the discussion wasn't interesting, but because it wasn't helpful or relevant to this forum.  Rest assured that for several weeks now, the moderators have been discussing the changing nature of discussions and what we could do about it. A lot of people want to use the forum to inform Yamaha of what they are doing wrong and what they should be doing.  This forum, however, is for Yamaha owners, not for Yamaha Corp.  If you want to tell Yamaha anything, contact Yamaha.  If you like to debate and argue your position, go do it elsewhere.  If you are unhappy with how moderators are trying to moderate this forum, don't fret about it, just leave.  But, if you go to other forums and complain about how bad PSR Tutorial is and come back here and warn other members about the terrible things that will happen if they utter one wrong word, you are in the wrong place.

Wise words Joe..

Except the fact that we need to send letters to yamaha to inform them of our wishes. They will send a nice answer and keep it at that..

In my vision, making demands as a user community works only if they are backed up by a considerable part of the community... and a forum where we all know, that Yamaha reads the forum, might be the only place to do so...

I think its a strange thing to ask people to not criticise things.. i do not understand such.... but i do understand your pollicy, and will further just stick to reading the topics inhere and no further post any more comments.. a pollicy is a policy.. and i will live up to that.

[maartenb]

Thank you, Joe, for explaining.

having nothing to do with the focus of this forum

With all due respect, I see many, many threads that are not the focus of mastering the Yamaha keyboard, yet they are still there. I don't see any consistency in the moderation at all.

Rest assured that for several weeks now, the moderators have been discussing the changing nature of discussions and what we could do about it.

I expect the changing nature to be only a temporary thing. People are waiting for their Genos. Once most people who want one have one, the discussions will go back to helping each other getting better at understanding the keyboard and playing it.

If you are unhappy with how moderators are trying to moderate this forum, don't fret about it, just leave.

I am sincerely contemplating doing that. I haven't reached a decision yet.

I consider removing a complete thread, without any explanation, just rude. It could have done so much more elegantly, like locking the thread and appending a last message stating "thread locked because not about mastering the keyboard.". And do that consistently with other threads as well. In that way I understand why things are done and I have the opportunity to adapt my posting behaviour.


Anyway, I will stick to "tutorial" posts only now.


Maarten

[Grayfox]

Well I'm cutting right back on my input, I'll just stick to asking questions.
Graham

[Tommy 73]

 

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[travlin-easy]

Posted by Maartenb With all due respect, I see many, many threads that are not the focus of mastering the Yamaha keyboard, yet they are still there. I don't see any consistency in the moderation at all.

The reason those posts still exist is we moderators are actually very nice individuals that do our best to not curtail anyone's wishes and to post those thoughts, even when we may disagree with what was posted. We DO NOT indiscriminately ban individuals for no good reason at all, we DO NOT indiscriminately delete posts or threads. If a thread of post was deleted, something all moderators have to do at times, it is for good reason. The decision is up to the moderators, whom are all veterans of this forum and have been here pretty much since the forum began many, many years ago. I have posted the rules of the forum, which everyone must adhere to in order to become a member. As Joe stated, if you came here to gripe about Yamaha arranger keyboards, you came to the wrong place.

On the Synthzone, which I am also a longtime member, the forum owner, Nigel, posted this under the heading "Please discuss topics in a civil manner or leave!" I have had enough of childish bickering. If this is how you wish to treat eachother then that is fine .... but you won't be doing it on this forum. I and other members here are tired of it. I will ban you permanently and you can find somewhere else to do it. If you really need to argue do it via email or on another forum. And it's not because I am over sensitive it is just that conflict distracts the discussion. We simply don't need it ... don't want it.

If anyone attacks other members and finds they have been banned, don't expect notification from me about the ban. It is not open for discussion.


Nigel is very open minded about the topics posted as we are here, but the moderators WILL enforce the guidelines, and they don't need to notify you or anyone else about a thread being removed.

That said, our moderators REALLY ARE nice people, and do our best to help everyone. That's why we have been here for more than two decades.

Gary

[usaraiya]

Wow, I can't believe the level of censorship .. no questions asked, no questions answered? Why?

Uday

[travlin-easy]

Why not?

[Kytrinh]

I think its pretty normal while people are eargerly waiting for the new Genos to be accessible in their local area, so we disect and venture into every territory of this new board.. i have no offence of anything thats discussed here, in fact its quite useful as a time killer while i await Genos' arrival to Australian shores.
Im still on my T4 and yes, still discovering new things and at the moment over on the T4 section theres still aplenty tips.. these discussions will end soon enough once everyone here has their Genos, and those that have decided not to have one, will find that this part of the forum is of no interest for discussion and will self exclude..as i do with the T5
Im the poorest of students, yet find myself the greatest teacher at times if often i just read and listen..

I dont think ive read too many posts thanking and appreciating the moderators and those involved in keeping this forum alive. This site is way beyond any manual released.. so i simply wish to say THANK YOU..

Ky

[markstyles]

Joe is right, PSR is the number one site for information on Yamaha Arranger keyboards, It is invaluable. I am glad and satisfied how they run this site.. They can do what they please, and really have no obligation to explain themselves.  If a member doesn't like, he can just stop coming.  I have noticed here in the US and the world, the current mood.  Jerks in power, think they can just insult, lie, bully, distract to accomplish what they want.  What is really threatening is young minds are leaning this is the way you operate in society.. The internet now is so full of bull***, false facts, that you cannot treat it as an encyclopedia, like when it first came out 

I have left a fair number of sites over the years, when brash people with opinions they thought were very important, turned the site into something undesirable for me.

Yes, I understand the value of criticism. I certainly believe there are a number of Tyros 5 users, who might not opt to buy a Genos.  For some users I see them thinking, Yamaha has gone in the wrong direction.  Others of course will love it, and possibly jump ship from another manufacture.

I remember a couple years back, an influx of new younger members, criticizing everything and even insulting older longtime users.. After a number of incidents, PSR took from action.. Some of the trouble makers disappeared. Those that remained were more civil and polite. 

Ultimately it's PSR's decision, to run this site the way they want.

I've been a Logic Pro user for a very long time.. Many years Apple bought it from EMAGIC and set up a forum..  If anyone said anything negative about Logic, the post was deleted, and after two posts, they were banned. I couldn't agree with that type dictatorship, I banned the website from my browser.. 

Bachus - you've made an excellent point..  If users can complain in mass, and be aware of others, that is far more likely to get Yamaha's attention..

Apple made their 2013, then didn't update it for years.. Many power users,  abandoned Apple.  Now Apple finally admits 4 years later, they went off track. 

There is power in numbers, and when enough people complain, others listen.. There is power in agreement..

[stephenm52]

I've written a similar comment elsewhere on this forum.  The jest of my message is I've been a member here since 2005, I learned more about my original PSR 3000 in a few months at this site than I could have on my own in let's say a year maybe longer.  Joe has always run an outstanding site the "best Yamaha site" in my opinion.   In the last couple of years I've not posted very often but since Genos has been released I've a renewed interest in the site.   What I found at one time this site was more like a big happy family, seems it's changed. YES there are a lot of great people here who still have positive influences. I've made some good friends here through out the years, a few have passed away others have not posted recently.  I support Joe and the moderators in their decisions, they always run a great site.  My thought is with their good judgement if a post is removed it's probably for a good reason.


Keep up the good work Joe, Gary and other moderators.

[Fred Smith]

In my vision, making demands as a user community works only if they are backed up by a considerable part of the community... and a forum where we all know, that Yamaha reads the forum, might be the only place to do so...

I disagree.

Gary and Eileen have got Yamaha to implement lots of their suggestions. And it wasn't done by incessantly posting to this forum. You should follow their advice.

Fred

[Jørgen]

Hi Fred

The conditions in the different countries are different.
Here in Denmark it will be waste of time to contact the Yamaha sales office or a keyboard dealer for "technical" issues. I have tried... 

Jørgen

[Jeff Hollande]

Maybe Denmark, like The Netherlands, is managed by the Yamaha European Headquarters in Germany ?

Jeff

[Flemming]

No Jeff. In Denmark we have a common headquarter i Sweden together with Sweden and Norway.

Even though Scandinavia, as these three contries are called, has a small population about 20 mill, we are a relative huge market for Yamaha. Its because we have great traditions for solo-entatainers using this kind of keyboard for parties of all kind. And as musicians are well paid in this part of the world we can afford buying expensive instruments.

And to the thread about the price. I really think the price is not higher than the Tyros 5-76, at least not here in Denmark. Our currency is linked to the euro, so I guess that must be the situation in most european contries. The currency in Norway has lost value since T5, which also goes for the enlish pund (brexit) and thats maybe why the price seems higher.

Best regards Flemming

[Gunnar Jonny]

.......... And as musicians are well paid in this part of the world we can afford buying expensive instruments.
...........The currency in Norway has lost value since T5, which also goes for the enlish pund (brexit) and thats maybe why the price seems higher.

One-man-band, duo or trio get well paid in Denmark? Maybe I should start gig again and move a bit south.
Maybe it's true: "Det er deilig å være norsk i Danmark"

Pricepolicy?  Well they rised the T5 price quite a lot during the past months, and T5-76 is at the moment N.Kr 45.393,- = US$ 5 575 / € 4 787
Genos are at N.Kr. 45.393,- = US$ 5 596 / € 4 805  (Genos if no trade in at N.Kr. 44.419,-)

Also, why does the prices differ as much around the world? The cost to produce is the same whatever country Yamaha sell to, and shipping cost from Chine to USA or Europe are pretty much the same?

Yamaha keyboards are probably worth the price, but I cannot see why they all that sudden made a step up aprox US$ 1 250 from PA4X (and SD9 - Audya) that has been quite equal in price short time ago.

T5: https://www.musikkhandel.no/keyboard-piano/keyboards/yamaha-tyros-5.html
Genos: https://www.musikkhandel.no/yamaha-genos-workstation-den-nye-tyros-6.html?nosto=nosto-page-category2

Genos are even called "The new Tyros 6"   

[Joe H]

... A lot of people want to use the forum to inform Yamaha of what they are doing wrong and what they should be doing.  This forum, however, is for Yamaha owners, not for Yamaha Corp.  If you want to tell Yamaha anything, contact Yamaha... 

FYI... Apparently things have changed over the years. Below is an email I received from Yamaha Tech Support USA.

Joe H

________________________________________
From: YCASupport Support YCA [mailto:YCASupport@yamaha.com]
Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2016 10:41 AM
To: jhlifka
Subject: RE: Suggestions for the Next PSR Arranger Release

Hi Joe,

I'm sorry, unfortunately we can no longer take suggestions or forward them due to legal reasons.  I suggest posting this here:

http://www.psrtutorial.com/forum/index.php

That forum is monitored by Yamaha product managers.

Thank you,

Xxxx  Xxxxx

Yamaha [/color]