Arpeggiators on Genos and S970 Arranger keyboards

[Joe H]

Joe you probably misread my comment about the 2 rows of 8 buttons to the right.. they would pretty much work like the 4 rows of buttons on the montage... somif you want dedicated buttons for style part on off, you would have them... want to use them for something else.. you could do that..

With another of those nice small screens above them to give you information

This would not only add all the functionality you want, but also give the design of the Genos a much more ballanced look between left and right side..

By the way, saw you posted a video for me, i am in kind of a hurry, but will watch later today when i get home...

I guess you are talking about hypothetical buttons that could or should be on the Genos... it that right?

The Genos has 6 buttons for direct access to somethings and 6 assignable buttons on the right side.

Joe H

[EileenL]

Looking at the Demo's style parts are controlled by the sliders. You can turn them on or off very quickly.

[pjd]

So how are we going to convince Yamaha we want to be able to load custom and user created arps?

The Montage did not have the ability to create user ARPS when it first shipped. Yamaha did listen to the hue and cry on the synth forum and eventually added this functionality.

Time to organize, mates!

-- pj

[Joe H]

The Montage did not have the ability to create user ARPS when it first shipped. Yamaha did listen to the hue and cry on the synth forum and eventually added this functionality.

Time to organize, mates!

-- pj

We know it's possible for Yamaha to do firmware updates for the Genos just as they have with the Montage.  So they could add a second arpeggiator, more arps, add an Arp Editor to create your own and the ability to load User Arps.

As I noted before that the $500.00 USD MX49  keyboard has 2 live arpeggiators and 999 arps on-board.

But... will they listen is the question. We are all waiting on the manuals to see just how "programmable" those knobs and faders really are.  They should support writing and sending ANY MIDI message and be able set minimum and maximum values.

I don't know about the MOX but the Motif Rack XS has encoders that are also buttons.  There are 5 knobs programmed for 20 different parameters adjustable real-time.

You press the knob to see the current value of the parameter.  when you change the value it is seamless and smooth (no jumps).  The original parameter value and current value can be seen on the display any time you press the knob or turn it. So it's possible to always go back to the original setting if you want.

With my PC1600x I can map a foot pedal to control Arp Gate Time, Attack, Decay, release, Filter Cut-off and Resonance at the same time, with minimum and maximum values set for each.  What this does is allow me to create a nuance not possible on the Motif keyboard except by using the same kind of PC1600x algorithm.

Let's hope the Genos allows the player to assign Arp Gate Time to a foot pedal. Just that single parameter can go a long way in creating real-time variations to a live arpeggiator.

Joe H

[Joe H]

But everyone who wants user arps and a creative tool to create them raise your hands

Count me in!



Joe H

[pjd]

Organising is hard when there are so many things on everyones wishlist... and every wishlist is different...

But everyone who wants user arps and a creative tool to create them raise your hands

Exactly. Count me in for user arps.

Now that I've said that, I'd like to amplify your point (and whine).  Let's focus, folks. One issue -- user-defined arps. Let's get that much even if Yamaha dictates how they are implemented.

Thanks -- pj

[SciNote]

I have 150 arps on my PSR-E433.  Of course, it doesn't have the ability to upload new arps.  I haven't used them much, but I did use one in a part of a song that I wrote and recorded.  I have included a small clip where the arp is playing in the background.  Toward the end of the clip, I turn up the envelope generator's release to allow the notes to gradually blend together.  Except for the drums, I manually played all of the other parts (piano, bass, etc.) as part of a multi-track recording.

https://app.box.com/s/45nowisjr1hu1io5kd9d53yk1ujz91zb

[CalUKGR]

So if we want to make demands ... or aks nicely for improvement of the arp feature..
What should we shoot for with the current physical state of the Genos..
As its obvious that yamaha can not change the hardware...

Should we stick to this topic, or create a topic specifically for our wishes..

How should Yamaha change the arp feature to make it more usefull?
Here is my opinion...

1) add more arps then the current number of 210
2) open up the system so you can load user created arps from other yamaha instruments
3) add an option to create your own arps
4) make it so we can assign a user arp to each of the 4 panel voices. This should happen trough a specific window on the screen that opens when you hold the arp button for a bit longer.
5) add options for comtroling the arps trough the live controlls, pedals and assignable buttons.


Changing this. Would for me be a reason to upgrade from the pa4x to the Genos. Because when done this way, there is truely a reason to change from Pa4x to the Genos.


5)

Bachus, I absolutely agree it would be really great if there was a way to add in more arps - perhaps, say, from third parties - and then use them across the Genos' Styles as we wished. Think of the creative possibilities that would be opened up. Perhaps some kind of firmware update? I really hope so.

[pjd]

Thats what we are aiming for, a firmware update..
What we need first is the attention of people that have real influence with Yamaha..
We need them to bring this topic to their doorsteps.

True that.

I had this idea last night and would like to offer it for the list. I apologize to anyone who might have suggested this before.

Every PSR/Tyros/Genos style is a potential source for arpeggio MIDI data. The styles, collectively, are one huge library of phrases. Since the keyboards can import new styles, a musician can easily bring their own arpeggios (musical phrases) into the system.

Yamaha needs to add the ability to: a. store user arpeggios, b. copy a musical phrase from a style and convert it to a user arpeggio.

This process is similar to the way Motif and Montage import and create user arpeggios.

Using styles as the phrase database, Yamaha has an instant phrase library and so do we. A copy and convert operation might also be handy for creating Multi Pads, too.

-- pj

[pjd]

Here's a few extra thoughts. I wanted to keep my last message focused.

There's no reason to have Motif-envy. A lot of the Motif arpeggios started life as phrases in style MAIN, FILL-IN, BREAK, INTRO and ENDING sections. Of course, there are also the arpeggios started life in the old Yamaha beat-boxes like the RS7000. That's why I started thinking about the current existing PSR/Tyros/Genos styles as an "instant library."

In Montage-land, Yamaha seems to have orphaned the arpeggios. (Might be overstating this a bit.) When Yamaha moved from the Motif Performance concept to the Montage Performance concept, they lost the 5 (or 6) section mini-style, song starters. These style-like groups of phrases played together, so a quick drum+bass+guitar+whatever backing track could be played in real time into sequencer pattern or song tracks.

You can still play a Montage performance into its performance recorder, but all of those wonderfully composed groups of arps have been lost. Montage users wish and have asked Yamaha to convert them, but Yamaha hasn't take any action. This is what I mean by "orphaned."

Thus, I'm not optimistic about Yamaha converting any of its old content. 

-- pj

[pjd]

keep in mind his does not really work for some of the more advanced but highly usefull arps..
Also there are restrictions, like a max of 16 different notes for an arp.

Hello Bachus --

I'm hoping that the Genos engineers will eliminate this ridiculous note limitation. This "encoding," if you will, always struck me as some kind of hack to reduce storage space.

I guess I'm expanding the discussion, but which advanced arp features did you have in mind? That short list would be good guidance for the Yamaha engineers.

All the best! Gotta run to the gym for a while -- pj

[Joe H]

True that.

I had this idea last night and would like to offer it for the list. I apologize to anyone who might have suggested this before.

Every PSR/Tyros/Genos style is a potential source for arpeggio MIDI data. The styles, collectively, are one huge library of phrases. Since the keyboards can import new styles, a musician can easily bring their own arpeggios (musical phrases) into the system.

Yamaha needs to add the ability to: a. store user arpeggios, b. copy a musical phrase from a style and convert it to a user arpeggio.

This process is similar to the way Motif and Montage import and create user arpeggios.

Using styles as the phrase database, Yamaha has an instant phrase library and so do we. A copy and convert operation might also be handy for creating Multi Pads, too.

-- pj

I already have a thousand phrases in C scale I could donate.

Joe H

[Joe H]

What really concerns me is that the Genos has the same identical Live Control options as the S970. The improvement is that these Live Control parameters can be assigned to the 6 knobs and 8 faders.  Fader #9 is a Volume control.

No improvement to assign any of those parameters to a foot pedal. this is recycled PSR E433 on a $5000.00 keyboard.  Unacceptable.

Joe H

[Christophermoment]

RE:
"In Montage-land, Yamaha seems to have orphaned the arpeggios. (Might be overstating this a bit.) When Yamaha moved from the Motif Performance concept to the Montage Performance concept, they lost the 5 (or 6) section mini-style, song starters. These style-like groups of phrases played together, so a quick drum+bass+guitar+whatever backing track could be played in real time into sequencer pattern or song tracks.

You can still play a Montage performance into its performance recorder, but all of those wonderfully composed groups of arps have been lost. Montage users wish and have asked Yamaha to convert them, but Yamaha hasn't take any action. This is what I mean by "orphaned."
______________________________________________________________________________________________________

Hi, all the voices and more and all the Arps and more that made up these 4-part performances are still available in the Montage. Some Montage owners ( including Phil ) have, using the information in the manuals or having access to a Motif recreated these on the Montage. Converting your old favorites from the Motif is I think an excellent way to learn and experiment on the Montage. John Melas has hinted that he might do a conversion tool to convert all Motif performances to useable Montage performances. It takes a little time and effort ( which Yamaha have decided not to do as they want you to use the better Montage ones ) but is possible. The focus as always with the synthesizer line has always been the use of Arps/performances to kick start the creative process rather than using the supplied ideas as a fixed in stone (silicon) preset.

Christopher.

[Joe H]

RE:
"In Montage-land, Yamaha seems to have orphaned the arpeggios. (Might be overstating this a bit.) When Yamaha moved from the Motif Performance concept to the Montage Performance concept, they lost the 5 (or 6) section mini-style, song starters. These style-like groups of phrases played together, so a quick drum+bass+guitar+whatever backing track could be played in real time into sequencer pattern or song tracks.

You can still play a Montage performance into its performance recorder, but all of those wonderfully composed groups of arps have been lost. Montage users wish and have asked Yamaha to convert them, but Yamaha hasn't take any action. This is what I mean by "orphaned."
______________________________________________________________________________________________________

Hi, all the voices and more and all the Arps and more that made up these 4-part performances are still available in the Montage. Some Montage owners ( including Phil ) have, using the information in the manuals or having access to a Motif recreated these on the Montage. Converting your old favorites from the Motif is I think an excellent way to learn and experiment on the Montage. John Melas has hinted that he might do a conversion tool to convert all Motif performances to useable Montage performances. It takes a little time and effort ( which Yamaha have decided not to do as they want you to use the better Montage ones ) but is possible. The focus as always with the synthesizer line has always been the use of Arps/performances to kick start the creative process rather than using the supplied ideas as a fixed in stone (silicon) preset.

Christopher.

Thanks for your post.  Having recently purchased a Motif Rack XS I agree the 5 (on the MRXS) arp variations was an important element of the Performance Mode.  I did not know this was eliminated on the Montage.  I'm looking at how I can convert MRXS Multis to Multi Pads and style Parts for the arranger keyboards.  It is nice to have access to those 6630 Motif arps.



Joe H

[pjd]

RE:
"In Montage-land, Yamaha seems to have orphaned the arpeggios. (Might be overstating this a bit.) When Yamaha moved from the Motif Performance concept to the Montage Performance concept, they lost the 5 (or 6) section mini-style, song starters. These style-like groups of phrases played together, so a quick drum+bass+guitar+whatever backing track could be played in real time into sequencer pattern or song tracks.

You can still play a Montage performance into its performance recorder, but all of those wonderfully composed groups of arps have been lost. Montage users wish and have asked Yamaha to convert them, but Yamaha hasn't take any action. This is what I mean by "orphaned."
______________________________________________________________________________________________________

Hi, all the voices and more and all the Arps and more that made up these 4-part performances are still available in the Montage. Some Montage owners ( including Phil ) have, using the information in the manuals or having access to a Motif recreated these on the Montage. Converting your old favorites from the Motif is I think an excellent way to learn and experiment on the Montage. John Melas has hinted that he might do a conversion tool to convert all Motif performances to useable Montage performances. It takes a little time and effort ( which Yamaha have decided not to do as they want you to use the better Montage ones ) but is possible. The focus as always with the synthesizer line has always been the use of Arps/performances to kick start the creative process rather than using the supplied ideas as a fixed in stone (silicon) preset.

Christopher.

Hi Christopher --

Thanks for posting this and I agree. The point that I wanted to make WRT Genos is that Yamaha will only go so far converting its old content. Their policy puts the onus on either the end user to convert or for a 3rd party to build a tool (such as the excellent tools from John Melas).

I went the other way and converted MOX performances to PSR/Tyros styles. Did about about 24 of them. If I buy a Montage instead of a Genos, I will convert them back to Montage. (Cheesh. )

I totally agree. This is an excellent way to deep dive and learn the intricacies of one's electronic instrument.

All the best -- pj

[Christophermoment]

Hi PJ, I see what you meant. Converting those MOX performances to styles must have been fun and I think something that  lot of people overlook, which is the power of the styles. Used in combination with multi-pads they can be an incredibly expressive tool. A lot of talk about the Arps on the synthesizers seems to overlook the fact that the synths only have the Arps and now we get to have Arps on the new Genos as well(as styles and multi-pads). Great! Good luck on having to make a decision between the Genos and the Montage, a difficult one for sure but you know you will be happy with either. I'm lucky at the moment to have a Montage 8 and a Tyros 5-76 so I might be able to resist the urge for the Genos a little longer. Thanks for all the informative posts as well, they make for interesting reading.

Christopher.

[Joe H]

... Let's hope the Genos allows the player to assign Arp Gate Time to a foot pedal. Just that single parameter can go a long way in creating real-time variations to a live arpeggiator.

Joe H

Unfortunately it does NOT!  Genos Pedal assignments only support Arp On/Off or Arp Hold... same as S970.



Joe H

[Bachus]

So if we want to make demands ... or aks nicely for improvement of the arp feature..
What should we shoot for with the current physical state of the Genos..
As its obvious that yamaha can not change the hardware...

Should we stick to this topic, or create a topic specifically for our wishes..

How should Yamaha change the arp feature to make it more usefull?
Here is my opinion...

1) add more arps then the current number of 210
2) open up the system so you can load user created arps from other yamaha instruments
3) add an option to create your own arps
4) make it so we can assign a user arp to each of the 4 panel voices. This should happen trough a specific window on the screen that opens when you hold the arp button for a bit longer.
5) add options for comtroling the arps trough the live controlls, pedals and assignable buttons.


Changing this. Would for me be a reason to upgrade from the pa4x to the Genos. Because when done this way, there is truely a reason to change from Pa4x to the Genos.

Luckilly someone saved he essence of my contribution to this topic..

Now again, the question is how are we going to get Yamaha to add (some of) these to the Genos?
They actually did quite some big featurenupdates for the montage
So not all is lost, we just need to unite our wishes

[Joe H]

Bachus,

I think we just keep making an appeal to Yamaha that their TOTL arranger MUST offer more than the PSR E-433, S670, S770 and S970.  After all the Genos IS now the TOTL arranger.

1. Minimum 2 live arps... 4 would be better
2. Assignable  to Left, R1, R2, R3, Style Parts or Multi Pads.
3. Genos should also offer ALL Live Control functions assigned to a foot pedal or foot switch.
4. Full MIDI implementation (MIDI Data Formats like the Motif) All Live control parameters can be executed via system exclusive.
5. Live Control parameter setting on all knobs and faders be saved in registrations
6. Add all Motif XF arps and Mega Voices necessary to use with the Mega Arps

Joe H

[Bachus]

Bachus,

I think we just keep making an appeal to Yamaha that their TOTL arranger MUST offer more than the PSR E-433, S670, S770 and S970.  After all the Genos IS now the TOTL arranger.

1. Minimum 2 live arps... 4 would be better
2. Assignable  to Left, R1, R2, R3, Style Parts or Multi Pads.
3. Genos should also offer ALL Live Control functions assigned to a foot pedal or foot switch.
4. Full MIDI implementation (MIDI Data Formats like the Motif) All Live control parameters can be executed via system exclusive.
5. Live Control parameter setting on all knobs and faders be saved in registrations
6. Add all Motif XF arps and Mega Voices necessary to use with the Mega Arps

Joe H

Yes offcourse..

Arps assignable to the multipads and styles..
How could i have not seen this..
This would be so huge for creating diversity in a style.

Real arps playing, and you could controll the parameters amd chnage the arps and so your auto acomp trough changing the arp in real time, or even trough prerecorded controll messages..

Definately would be huge..

[Bachus]

Joe, how much success did you have turning the midi of a styletrack into an arp?

We know Montage has a feature that turns any midi track into an arp..
But would such a tool work in the Genos too?

[Joe H]

... Real arps playing, and you could control the parameters amd chnage the arps and so your auto accompaniment through changing the arp in real time, or even through prerecorded control messages..

Definately would be huge..

I can do this with my Motif Rack XS Multis.  I created an algorithm made up of Arp Gate Time, Attack, Decay, Release, Filter Cutoff and Resonance simultaneously.  Each parameter is adjusted with its own minimum and maximum value.  the PC1600x faders are mapped to a pedal as Master Fader so I can control the algorithm with a foot pedal real-time. I will try to record an example this weekend.

I also DID made a style Part using the S970 arpeggiator.  The recorded arp was manipulated with real-time Arp Note Gate Time using Live Control to create a unique one of a kind arp. I will try to record an example of that as well.

I'm hoping Yamaha will add the sy*** data formats for arp parameters on the Genos.  When I requested them for the S970 I was told they don't exist.   

I have turned MANY style Parts into arps and converted them to Multi Pads and converted Multi Pads to style Parts.  Just recently I converted a bunch of Motif arps to Multi Pads using Pad-Maker-Midi.  These are good for Trance music and other EDM. Michael Bedesem's MixMaster has a Batch Process for converting style parts and Multi Pads into pure MIDI loops.  You have the option of including the Voice messages and other MIDI data or just the note data alone. 

This function allows us to convert thousands of ready to use MIDI loops created from style parts and Multi Parts that are 100% compatible with our arranger keyboards.   And I'm talking about all styles and genre of musical tastes.

I have made several appeals to the author of StyleMagic to add Import MIDI Loop to his next program update.  If he does this, it will be possible to load loops into StyleMagic to build styles much the same way as in a DAW but I think a lot easier.  Plus StyleMagic allows us to easily create the CASM settings and convert to a style.  Not to mention the great Voice Editor and Drum Kit Editor.

Joe H

[travlin-easy]

Great informational post, Joe. These are the kind of posts that are very helpful to everyone on the forum, and I'm really happy to have you here.

Keep up the good work,

Gary :cool:

[Joe H]

Thanks Gary.  I'm still working nearly full time at 70 years of age.  This really puts a damper on my hobby projects.  There are a couple of tutorials I would like to write, but so little time.

Lately it seems like there is a lot of "chewing the fat" and not so much help with how to get the most out of our keyboards.

About two yeas ago I contacted several forum members and proposed a group effort to write a tutorial on style making that included all available tools, the technical aspects of building a style, the musicality of styles, mixing and arranging.  I don't know how this could be coordinated except by a video conference for an initial discussion followed up by group emails and maybe a couple more video conferences.

It would be nice to produce a comprehensive tutorial that might include in-depth documentation with screen shots of the keyboard and software where applicable and short videos on "How To" techniques.  But... it's just wishful thinking... I'm just a dreamer on this I think.

Regards,
Joe H

[travlin-easy]

Joe, I will be 77 next week, and I didn't retire until last year, mainly because health issues forced me to retire. The best advice I have for you is to take some time to smell the roses before someone places roses on your casket. I should have retired at age 70, but when you are an musician/entertainer and work 7 days a week and the money is flowing in it's hard to say no when someone offers to pay you for having this much fun.

I celebrated my 72 birthday sailing down the Atlantic Intra-Coastal Waterway to the Florida Keys where I spent that winter. It was as close to retirement as you can get, and I only performed two to thee nights a week while I was there, which paid all my expenses. If I were not so busted up, I would do it this month, but now my lungs are shot and I am slowly dieing of pulmonary fibrosis from asbestos contact when I was a young kid in the US Navy.

I have done several tutorials for the site, which can be found under projects. If I were going to do one today, it would be all video with audio voice overs, which have a greater impact than those that I merely wrote. The only reason I was success with the written projects is for many years I was a full-time, freelance outdoor writer for 25 publications. For me it was relatively easy, but without that experience, it would have been a lot more time consuming and difficult.

Thanks again for your efforts and contributions to the forum,

Gary

[Joe H]

Hi Gary,

I've decide to go to a 4 day work week... so that's a start in the right direction I think.   



Joe H

[Jimmy Gee]

Thanks for sharing - I have just really begun with Arp's.

I use a combination of my T5 with Logic Pro X which has  some Synth Plug-ins with programable ( customizable Std Patterns) ARP's.

So this combo offers quite a selection:
1) I can just trigger the ARP in Logic by playing a note or chord on my T5.
2) I can combine a T5 Multi-Pad (Arp) with a Logic Arp ( 2 separate tracks- same BPM) - and get something Strange / amazing / Exciting / different results.
3) I can take a T5 MP play it thru a Logic Synth where the T5 MP gives the 'pattern' and Logic is revoicing it.

The dropbox link is an example of:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/b9crrqev7izokpv/EDM%20chant.mp3?dl=0

1) T5 Style and MP
2) Logic Arp
3) T5 Ensemble voice
4) Apple loops and samples

[Joe H]

I don't have an account with Google drop box so I can't listen to your arps.

Joe H

[Bachus]

Thanks for sharing - I have just really begun with Arp's.

I use a combination of my T5 with Logic Pro X which has  some Synth Plug-ins with programable ( customizable Std Patterns) ARP's.

So this combo offers quite a selection:
1) I can just trigger the ARP in Logic by playing a note or chord on my T5.
2) I can combine a T5 Multi-Pad (Arp) with a Logic Arp ( 2 separate tracks- same BPM) - and get something Strange / amazing / Exciting / different results.
3) I can take a T5 MP play it thru a Logic Synth where the T5 MP gives the 'pattern' and Logic is revoicing it.

The dropbox link is an example of:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/b9crrqev7izokpv/EDM%20chant.mp3?dl=0

1) T5 Style and MP
2) Logic Arp
3) T5 Ensemble voice
4) Apple loops and samples

Nice performance

Logic/mainstage has a very nice arpeggiator, also Omnisphere, Reason and Halio. Have very nice arps.

I even started a topic about this ar kvr audio, the worlds most popular vst forum, and it seems people agree overthere, nothing comes close to the diversity of Yamaha's motif and montage arps..

If you want Yamaha's arps and make full use of it, we still seems to be condemned to using a montage..  why cant yamaha understand that this feature is also very very usefull for arrangers?  In a more pro form, i guess...