s970 & s770 erratic behaviour / faulty [A] to [J] buttons - is yours affected?

[szwarc]

So i will be call to the shop were i buy my yamaha on monday.

[Happy Jack]

So i will be call to the shop were i buy my yamaha on monday.

    Yes, that is a good move.   'A stitch in time, saves nine', as the old saying goes. 

  PS:  Many thanks to the original poster, Paul, (Chronos1976) for highlighting this issue.

  best regards
  Jack

[textbook]

[quote author=Happy Jack link=topic=32258.msg243668
  Aye, we're back in the Land of the Living.  Although one's extended warranty might be another story. :-)

  happy regards
   Jack
[/quote]

Good to see you back anyway Jack,  I sincerely hope your personal extended warranty won't expire for many years yet my friend. 
My consultant recently renewed mine for another 6 months...fingers xxx for both of us.   

Best wishes...Cameron

[Jeff Hollande]

Hi,

I followed all instructions as described on page 1 ( Thank You ! ) and nothing seems to be wrong.

Best wishes, Jeff

[Happy Jack]

  Hi all here,

    I'm repacking my PSR-S770 return, ready for courier collection.   Presumably one would include all the bits: manual, power supply, music stand? ...

   cheers

[EileenL]

Yes you should pack everything that came with the keyboard.

[Happy Jack]

Yes you should pack everything that came with the keyboard.

  Cheers, Eileen, much appreciated.   

   Empty keyboard trolley looks weird; withdrawal symptoms already kicking in. 

   Thankfully, still got my looper and sampler to compensate. :-)

  happy regards
  Jack

[Jeff Hollande]

Is it a software bug or a " mechanical " problem or both ?

Hopefully all " victims " will be helped soon.
Nothing worse than being without keyboard arranger. 

Wish you all good luck !
Keep my fingers crossed ...

Jeff

[Happy Jack]

Is it a software bug or a " mechanical " problem or both ?

Hopefully all " victims " will be helped soon.
Nothing worse than being without keyboard arranger. 

Wish you all good luck !
Keep my fingers crossed ...

Jeff

  Thanks for your good wishes, Jeff.   Unsure what the cause is of this keyboard anomaly at the moment, but maybe Yamaha tech department will elucidate anon. 

   Needless to say, I refitted the two original Live Control knobs (had installed two yellow 'short fatty' ones). Must say the feel of the 'short fatty' ones in general use,  are much more pleasurable, in contrast.

  The only minor casualty (so far) was in my prizing away the extension USB hub (secured to the side of the PSR with double sided tape). Split the hub's casing. Boo-hoo, woe is me!      Also, found that the use of a hair-dryer came in handy to quickly remove multiple traces of double-side tape residue. 

UPDATE:   Reidys' courier picking it up tomorrow (Tuesday). :-)   And says only to repack the PSR-S770 keyboard and the power supply and lead, but NOT the music stand or the manual.   Anyone else in the same situation might better check with their dealer regards same.

  Now, the next hurdle is trying to make sense of these polystyrene end packing bits. :-)

2ND UPDATE:  Young gent from Reidys couldn't offer any tips on making sense of repacking with the polystyrene bits, other than confirming it is 'difficult'.    Never mind, found an PSR-S970 Unboxing vid' on YouTube, which shone a light from afar. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5H9LsEn1o40

  Okay, all good to go (back) :-)
  Jack

[textbook]

Hopefully Jack they don't have it too long, and they get it sorted and returned to you quite quickly... fingers xxx.   That video was a good idea, if my memory serves me right, there is a specific cut-out in the packing to hold the power supply and lead, which is locked in place once the box is sealed up.   The 670 I bought last year before my 970, came with the power supply floating around loose inside the box, which likely caused the nasty chip on the front of the board, and indeed was one of the reasons it was returned.  If that 670 was new, my name's mickey mouse...lol

Jeff:
I'm pretty certain it's a hardware issue. caused by flaky membrane switch panels,  if it had been a firmware issue, we would ALL be suffering from the problem, and the way it occasionally exits back to the main screen is typical of switch bounce.  Where even though you only press once, the contact is not always clean and positive so it sometimes thinks you pressed it twice, and other times it doesn't recognise the press at all so you need to press it again.

Cameron

[Joe H]

I think it's a hardware (switch) problem myself.  I went through auditioning several hundred of the Voices over the weekend.  I pressed on the inside edge toward the screen and only experienced the problem a few times.  Pressing on the high side of the switch causes the screen to EXIT far more often. I think Yamaha made a mistake going to the contoured buttons.  They should have stayed with the flat button design.    I only had this happen on rare occasions on my S910.

Joe H

[Happy Jack]

 CAMERON:

  Hi, cheers for the reminder about packing the PSU in its' proper slot in the polystyrene packing.  All boxed now and awaiting collection, thanks. :-)


JOE: 

  Hey, mine is the *reverse* of the fault you describe.  Pressing the A-J buttons at the centre, or pressing the 'thin' edge (next to the screen) causes the fault; whereas when pressing the 'high' point it works okay.

   Sure, pressing only the high point of the button would be a 'workaround' of sorts,  but a tiresome one: aiming to hit something the size of a match head time after time.  Not good. 

  happy regards
   Jack

[ticktock]

Hi all,

My s970 appears having this issue when I bought it in August 2015. Because this is my first keyboard (ever), I thought it was designed that way, until I saw this thread.

Three days ago, I updated the firmware to 1.04 and retested the buttons. The problem still resists.

I need your advice:

- Should I bring it back to the dealer? I bought the s970 from Guitar Center in USA.
- Should I report directly to Yamaha?
- Or doing both?

Many thanks,
Ted

[Happy Jack]

Hi all,

My s970 appears having this issue when I bought it in August 2015. Because this is my first keyboard (ever), I thought it was designed that way, until I saw this thread.

Three days ago, I updated the firmware to 1.04 and retested the buttons. The problem still resists.

I need your advice:

- Should I bring it back to the dealer? I bought the s970 from Guitar Center in USA.
- Should I report directly to Yamaha?
- Or doing both?

Many thanks,
Ted

   Hi Ted,

   Sorry to hear that you are experiencing the same issue with your S970.

   Personally, I decided to report my defective PSR-770 keyboard to the dealer who sold it to me.  I asked that he do something to correct the fault, if you please.

  Whether getting my keyboard fixed via repair or replacement is immaterial to me, since the keyboard was only purchased in August, so I still regard it as a new instrument with full warranty still running.

   I would have preferred to give a written account of my keyboard's fault to the dealer, but for some reason, when I tried the dealer's website it told me that my original order number was not recognized! I have since reported that website anomaly to the dealer. ;-)

   So I reported the fault to the dealer via telephone,  making notes, times, names, etc, and giving exact description of the fault.  I also asked my dealer if he was aware of any other similar problems.  In my case, my dealer said that this was the first time he had heard of such a problem with the PSR-S770 / S970  A-J buttons.

   Can't give a definitive answer to your original question, Ted, but my personal decision was to ask for assistance from my dealer.   

   best regards
   Jack

   

[textbook]

It's very likely the switches will be of the membrane type,  if they had been the bubble type (1st Pic) one would detect a slight click when pressed and will likely have a audible click too when pressed,  this bubble type is what Yamaha fitted to the S670 would be my guess, and tends to be used where the buttons are made of plastic, which the 670 buttons are.
As shown in the 1st pic, it's just a springy metal disc which pops in to make a contact when pressed in the centre, and pops out again when released, they work well, but the audible click can be quite noticeable as I found when I had my 670.

However, the one used most often these days because it's cheaper and requires less soldering,  is the membrane rubber sheet type, (2nd Pic) this is where the switch contact panel is a specially etched printed circuit board, where an arrangement of specially shaped tracks are in close proximity, and the button itself is made of rubber,  (usually as a rubber membrane sheet of them),  designed so that when pressed in, it simply shorts out the track and returns on it's own accord because of it's moulded rubber shape.   These type of switches are normally silent in operation.

The bottom of the rubber which comes into contact with the printed circuit board when pressed has a coating of a special electrically conductive material, (likely containing carbon/silver or similar)  which simply shorts out the track on the PCB.... a very simple arrangement that normally works well and is cheap to produce.  This is the type that is likely used on the 770/970 models,  the PCB shown on the second pic will have lots of these pcb switch patterns to match the required number of buttons.

So why are they not working properly ?   TBH I wish I knew....  The buttons are quite loose and floppy, so depending where/how it's pressed in may result in it not making a good contact with the PCB.    It's also possible that the electrically conductive material used on the bottom of the rubber button to make the contact is inferior.  Another possibility is that the PCB alignment with the rubber button membrane sheet is not as accurate as it might need to be, so that when the button is pressed in, it's NOT directly over the PCB contact area, so would give the symptoms we are getting,  but it can be any of those issues,  not cleaning the switch panel PCB properly before fitting would give similar issues too.  

Cameron

[attachment deleted by admin]

[Joe H]

Ted,

When I contacted Yamaha Support, they directed me to take it to my local dealer / authorized Yamaha Service Center, but I think it's good for Yamaha to get the message every way possible and as many times as possible.  I'm sure they are not going to be happy about this.  A hardware problem is more costly than a firmware update.

Joe H

[FELIXMUSIC]

I have a different problem...I reset my whole keyboard to try to fix this and for now, it's ok:

I needed to change my 'Chord fingerings' to Fingered on Bass. So I go to the appropriate screen in 'FUNCTION'...

The selection toggle was there on the bottom left of the screen...but the up/down rubber buttons below it didn't do a thing...(other items on the right side of that screen could be changed)...After I reset the whole keyboard...they are working again...but I think there is a bug in the software somewhere...

I recall years ago (14!!), the same thing happened with dead 'left/right' screen keys on my PSR-2000...but I would not have expected this sort of problem with a new instrument like the PSR-S770...

As noted...all is working again...but it is rather disconcerting...

I do not like the rubber keys that the PSR-S770 and my PSR-S900 have. An older arranger I have (the PSR-3000) has 'solid' keys (like the TYROS) and I like them way better...

James

[Happy Jack]

     Good day, yammylovers,

    I see that with excess of three thousand views of this topic, there are only 7 Likes to date! 

    To the lucky majority of those viewers, (whose keyboards are presumably fault-free), peace and love and lots of continued fun.

    My thanks also to the psrtutorial site.

  happy regards
  Jack

   

   

[Joe H]

Jack,

That's just the way it is.  Lots of readers, not so many comments.  When people post files for download, sometimes they get snatched up like candy... but not many thank you's compared to the number of downloads.

It's OK.  Most people appreciate what's being said here.  Obvously there are some boards with a button problem.  Maybe it's not that many... that would be good news for Yamaha.

Joe H

[Happy Jack]

Jack,

That's just the way it is.  Lots of readers, not so many comments.  When people post files for download, sometimes they get snatched up like candy... but not many thank you's compared to the number of downloads.

It's OK.  Most people appreciate what's being said here.  Obvously there are some boards with a button problem.  Maybe it's not that many... that would be good news for Yamaha.

Joe H

   Well said, Joe, here's hoping it is just a few 'rogue' ones 

   My dealer tells me that mid-January is a busy time regards factory warranty repairs.   Instruments purchased in the Christmas period have now been played and explored enough to reveal any inherent problems.   

    In other words, be prepared for a warranty work backlog.

    Could be that the A-J button issue is maybe comparable to noisy tappets rather than a big end knock.   Perhaps some might tolerate a nuisance level fault rather than the trouble of sending the keyboard back for warranty work?

   good regards
   Jack

   

[textbook]

Just a quick update regarding the replacement I received last week, and it's not exactly 100% good news unfortunately.

Having played it quite a lot since receiving it,  I have since found that just occasionally it will miss the odd button press, and I have to press it again, it's only happened about 4 or 5 times,    and it's jumped back to the main screen 3 times so far,   but certainly nowhere so often as it did on my first 970,   so if it stays like this I shall be reasonably happy.   I certainly won't be requesting another change or fix,  but TBH I'm suspecting quite a few have flaky button switches, but some much more noticeable than others, as my original 970 was like it from day-1 and it occurred quite often.  When it only does it infrequently as it currently is,  it's much more tolerable and I can live with it.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news,  but just to let you know. 

[Happy Jack]

Just a quick update regarding the replacement I received last week, and it's not exactly 100% good news unfortunately.

Having played it quite a lot since receiving it,  I have since found that just occasionally it will miss the odd button press, and I have to press it again, it's only happened about 4 or 5 times,    and it's jumped back to the main screen 3 times so far,   but certainly nowhere so often as it did on my first 970,   so if it stays like this I shall be reasonably happy.   I certainly won't be requesting another change or fix,  but TBH I'm suspecting quite a few have flaky button switches, but some much more noticeable than others, as my original 970 was like it from day-1 and it occurred quite often.  When it only does it infrequently as it currently is,  it's much more tolerable and I can live with it.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news,  but just to let you know. 

  Howdy, Cameron and all A-J Buttoneers.

     Sorry to hear that, sir;  bad show, especially that your replacement keyboard is now displaying a similar fault after such a short time. 

     Hope the fault remains within the zone of tolerance.  But please, leave any hammers outside of your Man Cave for the time being, eh? 

   happy regards
   Jack

[Joe H]

Cameron,

I tried the system reset thing.  This seems to reduce the erratic button behavior, but doesn't eliminate it.  I wonder if there is a problem with the installer program when doing a firmware update.  Shouldn't have to do a system reset after updating firmware.

At least my problem is on the radar screen of my dealer.  The store manager is going to the winter NAMM so he is preoccupied for the moment.  We plan to talk again when the dust settles. He called Yamaha trying to get a heads-up on this issue.   No one at Yamaha seems to know about the problem.  The tech support guy also seems to have abandoned me for the moment.

I'm not going to let it rest.  Sooner or later I will get a response from Yamaha directly or through my dealer.  Looks like a couple of weeks before I can take my board in for the diagnostic test.  I want the repair guy to be communicating with Yamaha repair in California if necessary to figure out what the problem is... IE; hardware or firmware.  I need the store manager's support for that to happen.

Stay tuned...   

Joe H

[Nick]

Hello everyone! This is my first post and, I'm having the same issue as most of you. First of all I think the PSR 970 is a fantastic keyboard!  If it wasn't for the A,C,and D keys which seem to be the issue on my 1 week old 970.  After reading this topic I realized that I have the same issue. I went to Guitar Center were I purchase the keyboard and they were ready to order a new one ( Excellent Store ) for me. I asked them instead to call Yamaha and find out what was the story regarding this erratic behavior. The Yamaha tech said they would  call me back within 24hrs. to trouble shoot the problem.  When I told them about the posting here he said that yes  there are a some complaints on the site but no one is reporting it.  This is why I'm asking who is correct? Is Yamaha being truthful. I know after putting down my money I want a system that works not a work around.  I'll let you know what the testing process is when we finish.

[Happy Jack]

Hello everyone! This is my first post and, I'm having the same issue as most of you. First of all I think the PSR 970 is a fantastic keyboard!  If it wasn't for the A,C,and D keys which seem to be the issue on my 1 week old 970.  After reading this topic I realized that I have the same issue. I went to Guitar Center were I purchase the keyboard and they were ready to order a new one ( Excellent Store ) for me. I asked them instead to call Yamaha and find out what was the story regarding this erratic behavior. The Yamaha tech said they would  call me back within 24hrs. to trouble shoot the problem.  When I told them about the posting here he said that yes  there are a some complaints on the site but no one is reporting it.  This is why I'm asking who is correct? Is Yamaha being truthful. I know after putting down my money I want a system that works not a work around.  I'll let you know what the testing process is when we finish.

  Hi there, Nick,

   Welcome to the forum!

   Thanks for taking the time to post your thoughts here on psrtutorial. 
   
   Yes I see your point.  While waiting for my faulty PSR-S770 buttons to be fixed, I think I will now take the added precaution of writing (not phoning) Yamaha UK to make sure they are informed of this specific problem.

    Hopefully my own faulty PSR-S770 (bought August 2015) will be soon restored to a fully functional instrument.

   happy regards
   Jack

[androidgalaxyman]

Dear  All,

After i read with continuous replies, i am bit worried about my new PSR S770. i was bought this last Saturday, i really happy that keyboard i got. But reading from @chronos and @Joe replies, these malfunction happened many users. so that i made quick test, alas me too have same behavior. is that the only way we must do return  claim? my country is india, i am more worried about whether dealer can exchange it or not. i too worried, if i go for service, it may take long time. its due to indian service center will not act on deadlines. is that anyway to do claim like, Seagate warranty procedure?  you can apply through internet and file the claim. Then we can gave the corresponding service unit and after a short while we  can get the warrantied device.

Thanks

in deep sad!!!

Regards
Androidgalaxyman

[Joe H]

Androidgalaxyman,

Before you do anything else.  Try doing a System Reset.  With the power turned OFF, press and hold the right-most white key, then power on your keyboard holding down that key.  You will see a message saying System Initializing.

See if this stops the button problem.  I have had very little of the button issues once I did a System Reset. Let us know if this works.  If it does this would be an important piece of information.  I encourage others who is having this problem to try it as well.  Yamaha needs to fix the problem... if we can identify a specific pattern of behavior it will help to get it corrected.

Joe H

[Nick]

Hello Joe!
Thank you for the info! 
I followed your recommendation and, it seems to have settled the issue for the minute.  I pressed the buttons repeatedly  with only one miss but it could have been my fault. This reset seem to have done the trick for now.  Time will tell if it returns.  Very odd problem.  Maybe it's a firmware issue don't know but when or, if I get a call back from Yamaha I will definitely mention this process.
Hopefully this may help others on this posting.

Thanks again
Back to Music....

[Joe H]

Nick,

Thank you for your report.  I hope others will give it a try.  I'm talking with someone else who tried the reset and got those same results.  He needs to do a firmware update from v1.03 to v1.04.  I asked him to let me know if the button problem starts again after the firmware update.  If so I suggested he do the System Reset again and see what happens.

Joe H

[Bill H]

This whole thing reminds me of my first computer, a TRS-80. (Please don't laugh... 

The keyboard suffered greatly from "bouncy" keys -- pressing a key might result in four or five of the characters appearing on the screen. The cause was a sub-millisecond bouncing of the springy key contacts when a key was pressed. As slow as it was, the computer could read the keyboard several times over while the contacts were still bouncing, resulting in multiple undesirable inputs.

The fix was to load a small utility program (called "KBFIX" if I recall correctly) that slowed reading of the keyboard just enough to allow the bouncing to settle before the next read while still reading it fast enough to keep up with a good typist. So, we have a hardware problem fixed by software.

All of which leads one to believe that even though the S970 (or at least some of them) apparently have flaky push buttons, a simple firmware update might be sufficient to fix the problem. Could it already be in v1.04? I doubt it, as Yamaha doesn't yet appear to know about (or at least acknowledge) the problem. But it does leave hope that a future firmware update might solve the problem, which would be much better than having to send the silly keyboard off for a couple month's worth of factory repairs.

Just my $0.02...