s970 & s770 erratic behaviour / faulty [A] to [J] buttons - is yours affected?

[Joe H]

OK,

I install the v1.04 firmware and my initial testing found no erratic button behaviour or glitches.  Everything is working normal. So it appears it is not a firmware problem. Either the problem is with the Voice Panel Board switches or how some of you are pressing the buttons.   

Joe H

[textbook]

Have you spoken to Yamaha about this. They are always the best people to go to.

I have sent a email to Yamaha UK outlining the issue of needing to press black buttons twice in order to make contact, and gave the link to this thread,  that was about 5 days ago,  but not heard back from them yet.

I agree with Joe, I think it's more likely a batch of bad bubble switch panels myself, as it occasionally misses a press even when pressed dead centre and positively,  it's not just one or two buttons either, the 'Right-1 and Right-2' and buttons around that area doing it quite often.

I'm not concerned about the issue of reverting back to the main screen,  but missing key presses is quite annoying,  in view of the fact Yamaha UK have not commented yet, I will give them a ring next week.  Fortunately it's just the black buttons,  it would have gone back before now had the Registration buttons done it too, but all the white buttons work perfectly.

[Chronos1976]

Hi everyone.

I spoke to Yamaha today, they have been able to replicate the problem and they are sending me a new PSR s970 next week. Yay!

I have to say I have found Yamaha UK and Allegro Music (where I purchased the keyboard via their website) have been extremely helpful, friendly and efficient through out.

Hopefully we'll hear something official soon.

[textbook]

What did they have to say about needing to occasionally press the black buttons twice to make it contact ?  as that sounds like its more likely to be a hardware problem such as a faulty batch of key panels. rather than a firmware fix. ?

[Slarty42]

Hello Folks

Problems with A-J button presses I see !!
I'm Not going to get into the technical aspects, but rather just a friendly, family oriented posting.

Well.... I fixed MY problem today and all problems with missed presses and unintended double presses are gone. I just joined the forum today and thought I might be of help to others with PSR 770. I've had my 770 for a month and this is the first chance I've had to actually use it.

If you look closely at the A-J buttons, you'll notice that the TOPS of these buttons are NOT LEVEL. (unlike all others). The A-E buttons are HIGHER (elevated) on the left side of button.....slanted or sloped towards the screen, and the F-J buttons the HIGHER (elevated) side is on the right side of button....slanted towards the screen. In other words NOT the same.

I believe that they are designed this way in order to facilitate faster and less effort for their function(s). Most people tend to push a button in as close to center as they can. THIS DOES NOT always "work" especially with modern electronics. I'll explain later !!

Firstly: There are many ways in which to use a push button regarding pressure,velocity, angle of incidence,etc. Do you firmly push, moderately press, gently touch (like tablets), quick jab, or hurriedly stab at a button ? . Many people I find tend to use the ball of the finger, while others use finger tips One young lady I watched used her purple fingernails and literally stabbed the poor switch to death,leaving cuts and abrasions  on the rubber buttons.

When you use the ball of your finger, you are actually "rolling" your finger around the top(X Y Z axis) of the button,(not realizing of course) and eventually finding the "sweet spot" of the button. Some are better at consistency than others and a tad quicker.


I have several reasons why I think Yamaha made these rubber buttons as they did.

A: leverage.....a downward force on the high side is to your advantage (unlike rolling the ball of your finger around the center) think tetter-totter !!
B: less pressure  in smaller area so the switch has a better useable "life" (not to mention your fingers).
C: you "feel" for elevated high spot ......good for subdued lighting conditions (black on black is NOT ideal) !!!

My Own Proof:

This morning I spent 4 hrs changing voices/styles (went through all of them) and not once did I have a misinterpreted "double push" or "missed push" using MY method HIGH end of button. Then I reverted back to center push and 3 out of 10 pushes caused problems.
BTW either version of firmware caused buttons to act the same. This afternoon I went to music store and tried it on 2 other KB. (770,970) and same results. I don't know about  the Tyros(s), as I've never even seen one in real life, but have been told about them.

I truly hope this works for you, so please try using the high spot of rubber buttons just once and see if it solves your problems.

best regards Terry

[textbook]

Well Terry,  when I read your post I was a little sceptical,  but not being one to knock something unless I've tried it myself,  that's exactly what I did, in fact I'd not even noticed that those black buttons around the display had a sloping top.   Anyway I have to admit, that when I tried pressing the outside of the buttons ie. on the raised side I experienced no missed presses either,  they certainly work better   

When I reverted back to pressing in the centre of the button I started getting the odd missed press again,  so a big thanks for that observation Terry and for passing it on, because users always tend to press the centre.   It certainly appears that pressing in the middle as one naturally would aim to do produces more missed key presses than on the outside highest point of the top of the button AYS.

In reality of course if the button was well designed, it shouldn't matter where you press it,  and one should not need to find workaround solutions to fix it,  but there's no doubt with these buttons on my own 970 it does matter where you press it and pressing on the outside (highest point) as you suggest does indeed seem to help   

Thank you Terry, for a most interesting and constructive post indeed,   it's obvious some of these button panels do have issues, as not everyone has this problem.   One should not need to press a button in exactly the right spot to make it work...lol   yes of course it helps to have a workaround,  but in well over 50yrs of playing keyboard instruments I've never needed to press a key on any instrument a certain way to make it work,  they just worked.

Thanks again my friend, your post was most helpful indeed, and much appreciated. 

Regards...Cameron

[Bill H]

Well, now, this is bizarre! I never noticed the higher outer edge of the buttons. They kinda blend in to the sloped bezel. Thanks for pointing that out, Terry!

Have to admit, pressing the outer end of the button sure seems to work better than a press in the center! I would conjecture that the higher outer edge allows more travel to the button press (even if it is off-center), thereby allowing the switch mechanism to operate more reliably.

I'm a little disappointed in Yamaha deploying a switch with such tight tolerances. It's a performance keyboard, for crying out loud. The musician should be able to finger-pop a button any which way and have a reasonable expectation that it will operate. Having to hit a button on one edge or the other to make sure it works is ridiculous in a $2K instrument. Hell, my $350 Casio has better buttons than this!

I really like the sounds and other features, but pushbuttons? C'mon, Yamaha. Folks been makin' reliable pushbuttons for a looong time, now...

[Volkmin]

I tried it on my S770. Everything is normal. I do not understand why it happens to some arranger.

Volkmin

[textbook]

Yamaha will replace keyboards that have the problem of missed key presses,  some were fitted with a batch of iffy keyboard panels, they are aware of the problem.

[Slarty42]

Hi Cameron

OH   GOODY ! GOODY ! GOODY ! thanks for the info and informing Yamaha

A whole brand new S770, that's wonderful as mine is getting old now (5 weeks)
I've already made room under my Christmas tree for the new one. I wonder if Yamaha will wrap it up in pretty paper and ribbons
in time for Xmas morning (ya..very wishful thinking !).

I guess I'd better register mine now with Yamaha Canada,as well as my dealer(they have serial #), so they can inform me when\how\where to exchange kb's.

regards; Terry

[milesmusic]

Hi,

I eventually got around to checking my S770 and found that the fault exists, usually reverting back to main screen after the 6th button press. I have sent an email to Yamaha advising them. Should I advise my supplier?

Best wishes,

Brian

[Joe H]

Now that I've had my S970 set up for about a week, I'm noticing some erratic behaviour with those buttons along the screen.  Seems they are overly sensitive to the touch.  I've seen my board leave the arp screen and go back to the last screen... in my case the Panel Voice page where I had selected a particular Voice.

I think most of the time this happens is when I'm navigating fast.  I agree with the comment above that the buttons should be flat and not tapered.  Maybe Yamaha intended these buttons to work like a small rocker switch (IE; pressing them on the high side of the button.  I don't know.   

If I can establish a pattern, I'll report it to Yamaha.  If they have a hardware problem (switches)... it could be like the S900 (screen going out) all over again.

Joe H

[Chronos1976]

Hi everyone,

I just received PSR s970 keyboard number 3 and still had the same fault, except when pressing the extreme right hand edge of the button which seem to work :-(

I wonder why these keyboards don't share the same type of buttons as the Tyros 5 (but black :-) because I tested one of those whilst out shopping and it worked perfectly.

Oh well, I suspect keyboard number 4 will be arriving sometime early next year.

Seasonal greetings,

Paul.

[textbook]

Sorry to hear that Paul.      I've been putting off sending mine back,  though the dealer did offer to replace it without any issue at all.  I haven't' done anything because it works most of the time, and AYS the buttons work more reliably when pressed on the outer raised edge.

I also sometimes need to press the right 1&2 button a second time if I failed to press firm enough the first time.  I already tried pressing them on the sides just to see if that made a difference but sadly not,  they work 9 times out of 10, but that one time is annoying.
What I can't understand is, they fitted better buttons to the S670,  I know because I had one for a short while, although albeit they were a bit clicky,  but at least they worked every single time and had a positive click to them, and I didn't need to press them in a certain way to make them work... only thing I disliked was the way you could hear the audible click when playing at low volume, but they worked.

I bought myself a 88key Casio Piano for Xmas, and before the wife insisted it gets wrapped up for Xmas day,  I did give it a try out just to make sure it was working okay, and remember thinking how good the buttons felt compared to the one's on my 970 and that was half the price.
The 970 can produce some nice sounds and it looks great,  but I really think Yamaha's penny pinching has gone a bit too far this time by fitting these pathetically poor black button switches....  I have  a cheap £120 Midi/Controller keyboard here from Gear4Music and even the switch buttons on that work and feel much better than these cheap black rubbery things on my 970.

The fact some users like Eileen and others say they have no issues would suggest these boards are obviously made in different factories around the world, or should I say different factories in China.    I've seen a couple poor 970 Keybeds in dealers showrooms too where keys were not aligned and spaced evenly,  yet my own keybed thankfully feels great and the alignment is smack on, which is why I find it hard to believe they all came out of the same factory.

Indeed having bought a entry level E443 for my granddaughter earlier in the year,  it's ridiculous that the buttons all worked fine on that E443 too yet they fit some that are much worse on the top model in their S range.... truly unbelievable.

[Slarty42]

Hi Everyone

Just a little update about my button problem

My "F" button is DEAD.....complete failure as in not working at all. I've wiggled it,pressed everywhere and let it sit overnight.I'm the one who pointed out the high side sloped button tops. I first noticed it last night after using it quite extensively,and thought in my haste,I'm missing the high side every now and then.

I have a work around, where I have to use the data wheel and Enter button to select voices or styles if they're positioned at the F button. However, I can't change my Function\Menu2\ Pack Installation button "F", and the wheel doesn't work in the function mode.
Just my luck...I had some silly little 100K file loaded (unimportant) and am stuck with it. for now

I'm not even going to mention my MONO button LED is not working.......ha ha !!
I'm still happy with my kb and try different functions every day.....I'm Not going to allow a few defects to ruin the fun.

My dealer doesn't expect another shipment of S770's until middle of Jan and isn't even aware of the problem in Canada

question:
Does anyone know if Yamaha will inform OWNERS about this problem (like auto recall notices)

regards Terry

[Bill Grosse]

Naw, if you don't complain to Yamaha directly, no action coming from them.

They do post OS upgrades on their site, but won't send you any notices.

If you have a problem, you need to let Yamaha know about it, just the way it is.

[textbook]

Oh dear...this does not inspire confidence,    as Bill states...yes it's a case of getting on to Yamaha or request your dealer change it which is likely easier as you probably stand  a better chance of getting a new replacement,  I found my dealer a little more sympathetic and positive than Yamaha, so your choice really.

One might now ask if pressing the high spot on these buttons is to be recommended doing ?  as I can imagine Yamaha now saying....ah but your supposed to press the buttons in the middle...lol

Anyway...sorry to hear this latest bad news Terry, at least your being very positive about it,   mines still working in a fashion, only thing that's stopped me returning it is the real possibility I may get one exactly the same with iffy button issue,  and I need to use it at the moment. Obviously if it quits altogether as in your case then there is no option but to get it replaced.

Hope you get it sorted.

Cameron

[Slarty42]

HI Cameron

Thank goodness I only use it for my entertainment purposes,as it helps to pass the time away in the Winter months. I will have
lots of time now to learn musical terms and play around with MIDI and DAW's.

I am of the same thinking as you, in that perhaps waiting a while will lessen the chance of getting a replacement with same
flaky buttons.Eventually all the new ones will be ok...they just have to filter down to the dealers.

It's probably a "blessing in disguise", as it will keep me from fooling around (as much) and actually concentrate on my playing

I don't think that pressing the high side of buttons will cause any great damage, put rather prolongs the time before complete failure occurs, as in my case.  These buttons with flakiness, most likely have a limited "working life" (MTBF) mean time before failure it's called.

In Canada my registration card states 2 Yr warranty, so no rush on my part

regards;  Terry
 

[milesmusic]

Hi,

I have now heard from Yamaha UK, who have advised me to contact them by phone with regard to having the keyboard collected and assesed by a Yamaha Authorised Service. I,m not to happy with this as it looks like I,m going to get a repair rather than a replacement , and not have a keyboard for some time. I notice that others who have the same problem have had replacements, or was this just in the USA?

I.ll ring them next week when normal working applies and see what they have to say.

Best wishes,

Brian

[EileenL]

Hi  Brian,
  I can understand Yamaha wanting to inspect a faulty keyboard for themselves so that they can report this directly back to Japan. They are very good at returning your keyboard as quickly as possible. So far I have not had any problems with my 950.

[szwarc]

I have the same problem !

[textbook]

My dealer swapped mine out yesterday for a new replacement, and I'm very pleased to say all the buttons work perfectly,  no need to press the black buttons on the outside to make them work,  they just work every single time now regardless how I press them.  Also, unless it's my imagination and the placebo kicking in they also feel a little more positive when you press them 

I'm pretty certain the occasional issue of exiting back to main screen when the black buttons were pressed is likely due to contact bounce,  where the switch was not making a good clean contact.   I've had this happen on the odd PC mouse where towards the end of it's life it gives the effect of double clicking the button even though you only clicked it once...IOW switch bounce.

Excellent service by my dealer as I only phoned them on Monday, they arranged delivery of replacement and DPD took mine away with them, can't be bad.  Just a shame the first one had one of the bad button panels.  Personally, I could have managed by just pressing the raised part of the buttons,  but figured it may pose a problem if I ever sell or pass it on later.  I've used it a lot today and all is good, can't fault it.

Cameron

[Joe H]

Cameron,

Thanks for the update.  Since I am already communicating with Yamaha, I passed this info along.  So it appears to be a problem with a certain lot of keyboards that may have bad switches.  Just when I think I'm not having the problem... it happens.  It must be caused by overly sensitive switches or the PNL board they are mounted on that is sending the double-press message causing an EXIT of the current screen.

I'm considering taking mine in to my dealer to get looked at who is an authorized Yamaha Service Center as well.

Joe H

[szwarc]

So i must send my psr to service ?

[Joe H]

szwarc,

Only some of us are having problems.  Pressing in the center of the buttons works best.  But if you are having a lot of trouble with those set of buttons, it is probably a good idea to have it checked while under warranty . We can only speculate as to why Yamaha changed to a different type of button by the screen when the old style button worked just fine.

Joe H

[Happy Jack]

Cameron,

Thanks for the update.  Since I am already communicating with Yamaha, I passed this info along.  So it appears to be a problem with a certain lot of keyboards that may have bad switches.  Just when I think I'm not having the problem... it happens.  It must be caused by overly sensitive switches or the PNL board they are mounted on that is sending the double-press message causing an EXIT of the current screen.

I'm considering taking mine in to my dealer to get looked at who is an authorized Yamaha Service Center as well.

Joe H

  Hi Joe, Cameron and all. 

     Please add Happy Jack's PSR-S770 to the queue.     

   Like some other folk, I'd assumed it was my doddery, slippery fingers at fault.  But the A-J buttons (both sides) are now becoming beyond a slight nuisance and keep flicking me, unbidden, to the main screen.  Might happen once in ten presses, or once in twenty, but sometimes I get a flurry of 'em at once.

   Phoned Reidys today, (after their website's Returns Form Request told me that my order number was not recognized) :-(    Did the usual stuff: disconnected all leads apart from the power, full factory reset, already done system upgrade to 1:04.    Bought it new August 2015 UK. 

  Mr Reidy of Reidys  (Yamaha main agent I think)  says will collect it next week and forward it to Yamaha.

   Will keep you informed.

   cheers
   Jack

[Joe H]

Jack,

When I take mine in... I will let the Tech know that this problem has been reported several times now and he should ask Yamaha if they have come up with a fix.

Please do the same.  Sooner or later Yamaha will have enough reports to know what the issue is... hardware problem or software problem.

Joe H

[textbook]

So i must send my psr to service ?

I don't know your location,  but IME the dealer you bought it from will likely prove more rewarding,  as the model is pretty new they should replace it,  then they will get your returned keyboard replaced by Yamaha. Obviously the longer one leaves it the less chance they will replace it.  If the item is fairly new many UK dealers will replace like for like without any cost to the customer.

My own dealer has a good warranty on keyboards, and arrange collection at their cost, though after a set time I cannot see them replacing for a new one, so better to get it sorted early rather than later. Otherwise one will need to contact Yamaha and send it to them for repair, but you will have to pay postage costs, and you will likely be without your keyboard for a while, hence why I suggested your dealer should be your first option and see what they have to say, as the legal obligation (in the UK anyway) is with the dealer that sold it to you.

As Joe suggests,  in view of the fact that not ALL the 970 and 770 models are affected does indicate they fitted some with inferior switch panels.  BTW The switches on the S670 are totally different and are not affected, and in fact actually work very well.

Happyjack:   
Good to see you posting again, I hope you have not been unwell my friend.  Not good hearing yours may have this problem too. 

Cameron

[Happy Jack]

Jack,

When I take mine in... I will let the Tech know that this problem has been reported several times now and he should ask Yamaha if they have come up with a fix.

Please do the same.  Sooner or later Yamaha will have enough reports to know what the issue is... hardware problem or software problem.

Joe H

  That's good, Joe, thanks.  When I fully described the fault to Mr Reidy of Reidys,  he said this is the first case he knows of.    I postponed acting on this before now until it became progressively more pronounced. 

   Am happy with this PSR-S770,  but I wouldn't want to feel that I'm stuck with a 'faulty' keyboard, regards selling or part-exchanging later on.

  cheers for your help
  Jack

[Happy Jack]

(brevity snip): ....better to get it sorted early rather than later. Otherwise one will need to contact Yamaha and send it to them for repair, but you will have to pay postage costs, and you will likely be without your keyboard for a while, hence why I suggested your dealer should be your first option and see what they have to say, as the legal obligation (in the UK anyway) is with the dealer that sold it to you.

  Good advice, Cameron.   So easy to let these little jobs slide into the pending tray. Thankfully Reidys uses DPD courier which saves a lot of hassle.  Didn't fancy camping out by the front door all week. :-)


Happyjack:   
Good to see you posting again, I hope you have not been unwell my friend.  Not good hearing yours has this problem too. 

  Aye, we're back in the Land of the Living.  Although one's extended warranty might be another story. :-)

  happy regards
   Jack