Yamaha new products at NAMM 2023... unfortunately no new Montage or new Genos 😢

[rikkisbears]

Currently I'm saving money, so anything can happen until I'm "ready".. but right now I'm flirting with idea to get Pa5X -to make a jump worth jumping, so to speak. Of course I would consider Pa1000 successor, but considering Korg current supply capability, I don't expect that to happen soon. Anyway, I'm trying to get the best I can and stop looking for a long while.

@rikkibears .. stop doing that -I'm already on fire   

Bogdan

Hi Bogdan , sorry 😔.  For one, they're still not that readily available,  and another ,anyone that's asked, I've recommended they wait till next update. Note so much for people who want to just enjoy playing music, but the ones who enjoy delving into the workstation functions.  Some are still missing.
Trying to make you feel better.😁
Worth waiting and getting something you can keep for a long time, be it a Korg or a Genos  when the new model is announced..

Had I not misread the signs 3 to 4 years ago  and sold my pa4x(ie I thought Pa4x was going to be replaced) my Pa4x would now be 6 to 7 years old. Would have been good value for money.

Same for Genos owners 5 years plus.

Maybe the time has gone where they bring out a replacement every 3 years.  Probably good for junkies like myself😆. ( and Danny) haha.

[Danny1972]

Maybe the time has gone where they bring out a replacement every 3 years.  Probably good for junkies like myself😆. ( and Danny) haha.

hahahaha! Well I think you will be a bit shocked with the message I sent you. I am truly a proper keyboard junkie for sure! You'll find out why when you read my message !!!!

[rikkisbears]

hahahaha! Well I think you will be a bit shocked with the message I sent you. I am truly a proper keyboard junkie for sure! You'll find out why when you read my message !!!!

You definitely are Danny. Haha

[tyrosman]

I did not think Irene was leaving the forum but just not going to take part in this thread anymore.
  After all there are still many members that look forward to getting information on there currant keyboards and asking for help where required.
  Most forums became very quite a while back because there were no new flagships from Yamaha coming along and sad to say but nothing to moan about like how bad Piano's were.
  These new threads crept in about the opposition and for my part have gone on far to long. Yes it is nice to know what else is out there but going on and on about it takes away the enjoyment of coming onto the forum for some. Come on all you Yammie's lets get back to our own topics. Why be on a Yamaha forum that is producing such long threads about other keyboards.
  The new Genos or what ever they call it will be along at some point and also the price it will be. Then we make our discissions.

very True Eileen

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

EVERYTHING COMES TO HE WHO WAITS

[mikf]

If only that were true"..............
Mike

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

NOVEMBER WILL BE HERE IN A JIFFY!!

[Amwilburn]

Seven years ago, when the then-new Genos was released, Yamaha prepared us for the event by showing us three months of teasers to get us talking about it and getting mighty excited, which would increase their early sales.
So, I would expect that Yamaha will herald in the new G2 using the same rollout strategy, three months of teasers before the release! Pure speculation, but something to look forward to!

Uday

My goodness, did you get the Genos a year and a half before the rest of us?? 

Genos launched Oct 2017 for USA & parts of Europe, Dec 2017 in Canada. (5.5 years ago from your post, but I agree it feels like it's been longer)

Mark

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

I  read somewhere now forgotten that a salesman had approached Yamaha and they said they cannot divulge any information.
In my book if Yamaha said they cannot divulge information, it means there is something in the ethers.
Elemetary my dear Watson.

[usaraiya]

I apologize, Mark, senior moments do occur especially when the events have been ages ago!

Uday

[mikf]

Wasn't doing much today - rainy sitting around bored - so I was looking back on the forum and came across this older thread and decided to add a couple of comments.
Bogdan , unfortunately true margins are driven by much more than just manufacturing cost. While it is correct that electronic keyboards have lower direct manufacturing costs, they often have significant other overhead costs, like design, development and support. And because the main selling platform has largely migrated to the internet rather than specialist shops and studios, they are under huge competitive pricing pressure. Margins on electronic instruments are often now razor thin, while that hasn't yet been the case for quality pianos.
And on Jeff's point, he is correct that large corporations are organized into smaller units with a management team tasked with profitable day to day running. But the job of senior corporate management is not just to set targets and monitor these units. It is to set corporate direction, and setting direction is much more than just what is or is not currently profitable. It looks at longer term things like market trends, corporate strategy, availability of investment cash, and where best to leverage that investment. 
Mike

[BogdanH]

Wasn't doing much today - rainy sitting around bored - ...

I know such days 

Bogdan , unfortunately true margins are driven by much more than just manufacturing cost...

-I'm fully aware of that.

While it is correct that electronic keyboards have lower direct manufacturing costs, they often have significant other overhead costs, like design, development and support. ...

Support... what kind of support exactly? Hardware wise, there's only warranty repair... which luckily, isn't needed that often. If at all, then things break (or wear out) after few years and then parts & labor is paid by customer anyway. And on software side, there's nothing to be supported (ok, there could be, but it isn't). To put it with another words: right now nothing would be different for me, if Yamaha factory stopped existing at the time when I bough my keyboard.

Margins on electronic instruments are often now razor thin...

Agree. However it's important to know that margins are actually dictated by manufacturer (Yamaha in this case). Yamaha has different net pricing depending on market strength (USA, Europe, etc.). And to be competitive in region, a retailer can only add a minimal margin -let's say 10% (I speculate). Now let's assume every retailer in every market region has 10% margin. But if we compare prices for PSR-SX900, for example, in:
Europe: 2045€
India: 1191€
-then we can imagine how much margin is kept by manufacturer.
Philosophy is quite simple: because consumer in wealthy region can afford to pay more, manufacturer just sets net price accordingly higher -this has nothing to do with manufacturing costs (I'm sure that Yamaha makes profit in India too).

Doesn't matter if I'm right or wrong in my thinking... these things are always darn too expensive 

Bogdan

[mikf]

Bogdan, you're certainly right that customer support  may not be not be huge, but my experience was that a lot of support went to the sub contractors, manufacturing, suppliers, etc. , so it's always there and has a significant overhead cost.
But my main thought was that everyone on the forum is speculating on how Yamaha has to produce a competitive product to Korg asap, and what needs to be in it, but really we have no idea on what the thinking is at corporate level in Yamaha.
Corporations look at things so differently from customers.
Mike

[soundphase]

Corporations look at things so differently from customers.

+1

[pjd]

Support... what kind of support exactly?

A friendly chap at Yamaha USA just helped me out. I'm sure he and his family like to eat and have a place to live. 

Yamaha's prices are relatively consistent across regions after currency conversion, VAT, tariffs and whatnot are taken into account. Yamaha may not feel compelled to sell up-scale products into all regions, however. Product offerings do vary by region.

Oh, well, feeling tired today -- pj


-- pj

[Yama]

I  read somewhere now forgotten that a salesman had approached Yamaha and they said they cannot divulge any information.
In my book if Yamaha said they cannot divulge information, it means there is something in the ethers.
Elemetary my dear Watson.

A German supplier, in response to my enquiry, informed me their sales department had contacted Yamaha, no information on a new Genos and/or its potential logistics/delivery is currently available, and that if such information were made available to the supplier, "they regrettably will not  share with customers"... 

The anticipation is as sweet as the anticipation for my upcoming first child (expected to arrive in Feb . 

I waited a long time for the KorgPA5x (88), and then unfortunately had to return it after 10 days, buttons were loose (floating), could not switch between headphones and speakers without unplugging or turning off the speakers (my DGX-670 had this option)...

[travlin-easy]

This entire thread is based entirely on speculation! No one really has a clue what Yamaha or any other manufacturer will be bringing to the table in the next few months, or years.

Gary

[EileenL]

You are right there Gary. Yamaha never lets us know until just before it is ready to launch a new product. What will be will be.

[soryt]

I ordered it a year ago , and I want it now 

[Amwilburn]

every retailer in every market region has 10% margin. But if we compare prices for PSR-SX900, for example, in:
Europe: 2045€
India: 1191€
-then we can imagine how much margin is kept by manufacturer.
Philosophy is quite simple: because consumer in wealthy region can afford to pay more, manufacturer just sets net price accordingly higher -this has nothing to do with manufacturing costs (I'm sure that Yamaha makes profit in India too).

Doesn't matter if I'm right or wrong in my thinking... these things are always darn too expensive 

Bogdan

I'm afraid you're missing the mark there; I can tell you the difference isn't being made up by the retailer, and most likely not (much) by Yamaha either.

It has a *lot* to do with duties, & certification, which all ties up to population (or more accurately, market size).



I *wish* I could get a PSRsx900 for the price of 1 in India (that's well below cost here). But why?

When something is brought into a country, there's certification (among other things) that costs *per model* to certify. A different colour counts as a different model, hence why often there are other colours that aren't brought into North America (CSP170 white for example). I can't remember the rates, but it was in the hundreds of thousands $$$. I'm betting India doesn't have those certification requirements.

Oh and support? Yamaha does have a technical dept for some of the more deep delve questions, but for the most part, *local* support is supposed to be given by the dealers (like us).

[travlin-easy]

Bogdon, retailers could not open the doors to the stores with a 10 percent markup - 10 percent would not even cover the electric bill, let along taxes, store rental costs, water, heat, employee salary, employee taxes, etc... If you know someone that says they are only making 10 percent on keyboard sales, they either are not telling you the truth, or neglecting to tell you that it's what they are making after expenses, or not profit. I spent a lot of years in the retail business, with my own store, a sporting goods store that also sold boats, motors and trailers to 21 feet in length - high dollar items compared to arranger keyboards. The markup on them was about 15 percent, but the net profit was at best 2 percent. However, some of the sales exceeded $40,000 back then. The markup on small items, fishing tackle, rods, reels, marine accessories, hunting gear, etc..., was 35 to 40 percent.

The big markups in the retail business here are in furniture and appliances, which can be as much as 120 percent. And, they always want to sell you a service or insurance policy along with the product. Lots of bucks to be made there, as well.

All the best,

Gary

[mikf]

To be fair to Bogdan, he never said that the typical margin was 10%. He used it as an example to make the point that if the retail price varied between retailers/countries by a huge amount, then some retailers must be making a much bigger margin than others. His same argument holds even if he had used 25% as the number.
However, he is wrong there anyway, because that all assumes the retailer's cost from the manufacturer is similar, and that might not be true. In fact it almost certainly is not the case.
There are many ways the manufacturer might justify different prices into different markets. Yamaha might be prepared to swallow almost no gross margin in one market if they can make enough in a different market, to cover operating expenses (indirect costs like R and D, admin etc, by having higher prices elsewhere., and still therefore generate a workable global net margin. Happens in the global corporations all, the time.
This kind of differential pricing might often make sense if it keeps manufacturing volume high ie fills the factories.
Mike

[BogdanH]

Mike, thank you for explaining that "10% margin" thing -yes, was meant as an example obviously.

My profession was sales/marketing (not consumer electronics, though) and so I think I know a little about how it works. But that doesn't necessary mean that I'm right in my assumptions. I say assumptions, because we have no evidence -is just a discussion.

Every country has import costs, taxes, vat, etc. and although they might differ in naming, percent wise, the end result is usually very similar -economics dictates that. That is, if import price of some article is 100€, end price will be (let's say) 80% higher and that's true for US, Europe and India. Yes, it might be only 70% higher in some countries or it can be even 110% higher in others, but this is less relevant in this case. I mean, between 170€ and 210€ is only 24% difference -even in this case, import costs difference is 40%! What does make an important difference, is import price -because end price is (percent wise) based on import price.

I agree with Mike, that manufacturer can be ready to sell at some countries with very minimal profit: being present in market can be very important for future. However, I'm not sure that's the case for India. Why I think so? Because India has more than four times the population than US (for example) and I'm quite sure that much more PSR keyboards are sold in India than in US -probably more than in US+Europe together. And because of that, I just can't imagine that Yamaha would work on such huge market with minimal profit and cover profit difference with sales in US and Europe.
In short, we pay here more, because we can afford. Average monthly income in India is about 450€ and so the person there need to pay two monthly incomes for keyboard -now compare that with monthly income in US or Europe. And Yamaha knows that.

Ok, time for some practicing on my overpriced keyboard 
Bogdan

[mikf]

Well you are right Bogdan, we don't have enough data to know exactly the Yamaha strategies. But some things are universal. If you sell at negative gross margin that is a form of economic suicide, because then every keyboard is sold lower than COGS and requires a 'subsidy'. If the lower price generates increased sales volume, - which is the whole point of lower price - all you are doing is losing more and more money and are on a death spiral.
But, theoretically at least, most overhead costs remain fixed. Lower prices, provided they don't get below the point of negative gross margin, increase sales and the increase in sales volume therefore absorbs more overhead recovery. So I could see someone saying, for example, dropping the price in India will generate four times more sales volume,  and that although each keyboard has a lower than ideal net margin, the total margin from India, and overall contribution to overhead is much improved.

mike