Saving voices from existing Midi file

[Wil5560]

Dear Users,

Maybe I am seeing this too difficult, or missing the right approach due to my lack of knowledge. So hope anybody can be of help......
In an existing midi file (which i purchased), there are 2 voices playing which really sound wonderful.
Now my idea is that I would like to use these voices and there setup also in a regular Genos preset style.
Is there a way (and please also tell me how to do this), to kind of save these midi voices so that I can start using them also in normal Genos styles?

thanks a lot for your help

[Joe H]

If you are playing a MIDI file on your Genos... then those Voices already exist in your Genos.  MIDI files have no sounds in them, just note data and other MIDI messages.

Look in the Mixing Console at those Voices you like and see how the different parameters for those Voices are setup.  It is probably the DSP effects that make them sound the way they do.

Joe H

[DerekA]

Joe, genuine question

Let's say I created a user voice by taking one of the preset voices, and fiddling about in Voice Set to adjust the cutoff, resonance, envelope etc. Then I record a midi track using that user voice.

I can see the DSP parameters for the song part from the mixing console DSP assignments. But is there a way to easily find out the specific voice set settings that were used for a voice on an individual song part? I guess they are actually stored as SY*** events in the midi, so they could be reverse-engineered, but is there another way?

[Wil5560]

Hello Joe,

Thanks a lot for your explanation. One more question related to your input:

When opening the Mixing Console at those Voices, how can I easily see which different parameters have been setup?
Eg if you have the standard 'factory setting' of the voice, which parameters are different and how can you compare and list what has been changed to the voice?

Is there an easy way to recognize what exactly has been changed?

thanks, Wil

[Joe H]

Joe, genuine question

Let's say I created a user voice by taking one of the preset voices, and fiddling about in Voice Set to adjust the cutoff, resonance, envelope etc. Then I record a midi track using that user voice.

I can see the DSP parameters for the song part from the mixing console DSP assignments. But is there a way to easily find out the specific voice set settings that were used for a voice on an individual song part? I guess they are actually stored as SY*** events in the midi, so they could be reverse-engineered, but is there another way?

We already discussed this in another thread.  Since the OP was talking about a MIDI song file, I assumed it was not the lead Voice. So I suggested looking in the Mixing Console.  But you bring up a valid point.  We don't know if the original MIDI was produced on a Genos or some other instrument.  Maybe the OP will clarify if it was a Yamaha MIDI for the Genos and what channel(s) the Voices were on.

This is the problem these posts... like email, a lot of detail(s) is not expressed.

My experience with recording a style with R1 OTS is that not all the settings of the R1 DSP are recorded. If the Variation (DSP1) is turned on for R1 that is recorded.

BTW... I rarely play MIDI song files, so I don't know if things are displayed differently in the Mixing Console than for style files.



Joe H

[Joe H]

Derek,

Update:  I looked at a MIDI song file I generated playing a style.  All the Part settings are displayed, but the channels 1 and 3 (R1 and R2) do not show the DSPs used for those two right-hand Voices.  Since I don't have a Genos, I don't know what is different in the Mixing Console display.

Maybe you can help the OP better than I can.

Cheers,
Joe H

[Joe H]

... I can see the DSP parameters for the song part from the mixing console DSP assignments. But is there a way to easily find out the specific voice set settings that were used for a voice on an individual song part? I guess they are actually stored as SY*** events in the midi, so they could be reverse-engineered, but is there another way?

Maybe take a look in MixMaster List View.  As discussed in the recent thread with Henni, it's not always possible to recreate a R1, R2 or R3 Voice for a style Part.

Joe H

[Toril S]

Hello I always record in MIDI on my keyboards, and sometimes, although the MIDI has been made om my keyboard, the lead voice sound a little different when I play back the MIDI song, almost as some of the effect has seeped out of it. This especially happends with guitar voices. Sorry if I am wandering a little to the side of the topic, but it is relevant. Sometimes the difference is not great, but I hear it, and it bothers me

[DerekA]

Joe

I created a test file and had a look in Mix Master, quite instructive as you'd suggested. I am only looking at the voices used in the midi file song parts, not the R1/R2/R3 voice parts.

I recorded part 1 using 'Soft Mini'. Then I changed the cutoff / filter (didn't save as a user voice) and recorded part 2. Then I edited some DSP parameters (again not saving as a user voice) and recorded part 3. Finally, I reslected the 'Soft Mini' voice, changed the velocity offset and recorded part 4.

The result was that the MIDI file (attached in case anyone is interested) contained

+ SY*** messages to assign the DSP to each of the 4 parts
+ SY*** messages to set up the custom parameters on DSP3
+ SY*** messages to set up the velocity offset on part 4
+  CC messages to set up filter/cutoff on parts 2 and 3.

There were also SY*** messages to set up some things that I had not touched - velocity offset on parts 1-3, EQ on each part, and one  parameter on all 4 DSPs. Without running another test I can't be sure if they are always there or just there for the voice I picked on.

So, finally, to answer the OPs question ... you can open the file in MixMaster and you will see the instructions to select a starting panel voice, and the various voice set and DSP settings that were applied. It might take a little time to understand what you are seeing, but it is all there. This will let you call up the panel voice on R1, then apply the exact same settings to get the voice you want.

(NB Toril - you lost the DSP from the song part because you used too many -, either on too many song parts with DSP or by calling up a panel voice after setting up the song parts. PSR-S only have 4 DSP so are vulnerable to this. Tyros has 9 and Genos 28 so it's less likely).

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[Joe H]

Hello I always record in MIDI on my keyboards, and sometimes, although the MIDI has been made om my keyboard, the lead voice sound a little different when I play back the MIDI song, almost as some of the effect has seeped out of it. This especially happends with guitar voices. Sorry if I am wandering a little to the side of the topic, but it is relevant. Sometimes the difference is not great, but I hear it, and it bothers me

As I stated above, it seems the R1 and R2 DSPs are not recorded with the MIDI song file... only DSP1 (if it is turned on) which is assigned to the style Parts.

Joe H

[Joe H]

Derek,

This is a difficult topic to address. As I alluded to above, this subject was discussed 2 days ago with Henni. 

https://www.psrtutorial.com/forum/index.php/topic,51063.msg399404.html#msg399404

There is a too big difference between the Tyros / Genos (TOTL) and the PSR line.

The OP still has not let us know what channel(s) those Voices are on in his MIDI song file. If he wants to duplicate a right-hand Voice to use in a style Part, it's going to be rather hard to do and very time consuming. As you stated... it will take some reverse engineering. Even if he wants to duplicate those Voices for R1,R2 or R3, it may be difficult to do.

Joe H

[Joe H]

Wil5560,

Are you still with us?   If  I owned a Genos and knew which MIDI file you had I would go buy it to see if there is a solution.

Can you tell us what MIDI channels these two Voices are on? If they are right-hand Voices, it will be very difficult to recreate them in a style Part. If they are R1, R2 or R3, you might get close using the right software.  Midiworks will actually display the DSP types for each right-hand Voice in plain English and a lot of other settings.

As you can see there is no simple answer... or easy solution.

Regards,
Joe H

[DerekA]

You know what Joe I misunderstood slightly. I thought the OP wanted to use the sound from the midi file either in their own midi file, or as an R1/R2/R3 voice. I hadn't really picked up that he wanted to use the same sound in a style - and that's what you've being saying, you can't customise a sound in a style anyway, even if you can discover the custom settings.

[Wil5560]

All,

First let me thank you already for the provided feedback.

So this morning, i tried to investigate the midifile through the Genos menu, and did see that 3 voices are used in R1,R2 and R3.
Next i also recognized which voices are being used, and 1 voice is coming from the legacy area, and the other 2 voices ar from the Genos preset.
I also did see that the EQ and Reverb were adjusted.

So with this i went into my normal Voice setting, and did select the same voices as i found in the midi, and also made the same settings for EQ and Reverb. Next i saved this as a registration.

The own created voices are now sounding almost equal as if i were listening to the midi file.
It's not 100% the same, but i would say 95%.

Maybe there are some other dsp settings that i dont recognize, since i am also not a specialist on dsp.
(Unfortunate i never found a good tutorial for Tyros or Genos what you can do with Dsp and what all the different settings really mean).

Hope this answers as well some of your questions in the provided feedback.

Thanks again

[Joe H]

Wil5560,

So you want to use the Voices as right-hand Voices.  You don't need to save in a registration, you can save as a User Voice.

How to do...

Select each Voice and open Voice Set, then set those same settings in the Voice Set parameters.  You can also add a DSP before you open Voice Set (or after your in Voice Set) and when you find something you like, it will also be saved in the Voice Set File.  One last thing... Give the User Voices a different name.

When you load the User Voices; the Preset Voice will load, (and be displayed) then the Voice Set file will load and modify the Voice to the settings you made in the Voice Set file.

By doing things this way you can use your User Voices whenever you like (as R1, R2, or R3) by just selecting them the same way you would select a Preset Voice. You can save your User Voices to the User Drive or to a USB stick... it's just a specialized MIDI file.

Give it a try and let us know how it goes.

Joe H

[Joe H]

... you can't customise a sound in a style anyway, even if you can discover the custom settings.

Well you can with a lot of experimenting, particularly with the T5 and Genos which have DSPs that you can use in individual style Parts. But it will be a lot of work to say the least.



Joe H