The Freeplay styles are programmed in 4/4  time which puts the bass notes on beat 1 (and sometimes 2).  However if you use these for a song in 3/4 time, the bass note will not start in the first beat of the measures in 3/4 time. Is there a way to use style creator to change these Freeplay styles from 4/4 to 3/4 and get the bass notes to play correctly?

Thanks

The idea of a freeplay style is that you are NOT playing in tempo. There is no beat one or beat two.....
If you want a style that plays in tempo, and has a bass line on the correct beat, but has no drums and only pad background sounds, you need to choose a proper 3/4 style then go into style creator and erase all the drum or phrases and replace with continuous pad sounds. Then save as a new style.
Mike

Hi Bpsafran,

You can go to the style editor and change the beat from 4/4 to 3/4 (I am not sure but I think it is in groove section. you will find it somewhere there). Change it for all tracks. That should serve your purpose

Regards

Anand

Hello,

I recently completed this tutorial, which applies to all styles.
Indeed, for free-play, there are no accented beats.
To make this more convenient, I recommend putting the original style and its copy on a USB drive so as not to interfere with the keyboard conten


Have a nice day.

Christian

Quote from: anandmaloo on Apr 10, 2025, 12:50 AMHi Bpsafran,

You can go to the style editor and change the beat from 4/4 to 3/4 (I am not sure but I think it is in groove section. you will find it somewhere there). Change it for all tracks. That should serve your purpose

Regards

Anand

Hi.
You cannot change, as you tell. Because changing time signature of a style part (variations, fills, intros, endings) which has already midi events and data it will prompt you that all data will be cleared/erased.

The things are not so easy as it should be (or at least does not work on G2 as it should)
You have to cut the 4th beat in each measure by yourself. So, given this, I think the best way of converting 4/4 to 3/4 is to first time convert 4/4 to 1/4 and then make the adjustments by copying data from one position to another.

Why do you need to cut the 4th beat? Is simple, let exemplify:

Main A, 4/4 time signature, pattern length = 4 measures.
1 2 3 4 | 1 2 3 4 | 1 2 3 4 | 1 2 3 4 |

Simple conversion to 3/4, ONLY using assembly function, to, lets say, Intro 4:

You need Intro 4 to be set to 3/4 time signature, and to grab all data from Main A, you will need pattern length of 6 measures. Using Assembly function will generate this data:

1 2 3 | 4 1 2 | 3 4 1 | 2 3 4 | 1 2 3 | 4 * * |

So, you will have the last measure which does not have all data filled in it. And more than that, the first beat of each measure does not have the correct accent/midi data.


Let me explain how to do it correctly:

Main A, 4/4 time signature, pattern length = 4 measures.
1 2 3 4 | 1 2 3 4 | 1 2 3 4 | 1 2 3 4 |

Select Intro 4.
Set time signature to 1/4, pattern length = 16

Use assembly function and get data from Main A. Result will be:

1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 |

If you'll look in Step Edit, you will see that each beat of initial 4/4 now will start at beat 1. So measure-beat-clock data will be 1:1:0000, 2:1:0000 etc (clock data could be other values, not exactly 0000, depending on initial style's data)


Now, to cut the 4th beat of original 4/4 measure in this new 1/4 time signature, we need to use copy function, from the Channel Edit page. Practically, we must move important data, to have only the sequence of 1,2,3 midi data into our pattern (1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,etc ).
First, we need to select Source top = 5 (the second 1 value in our pattern length of 16 of 1/4), Source last = 15 (we don't need the last "4" beat in our pattern length of 16 of 1/4), and Destination set to 4. And execute! Data will become like this:

1 | 2 | 3 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 4 |

Repeat this last step with Src Top = 8, Src Last = 14 (skip again the 4th in the end), Dest = 7. Data will become:

1 | 2 | 3 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 4 | 4 |

And the last time, repeat the step with Src Top = 11, Src Last = 13, Dest = 10. Execute! Data will become:

1 | 2 | 3 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 

In this step you will have the correct order of beats for conversion from 4/4 to 3/4 .

Now, change the pattern length from 16 to 12, because we want to throw up those "4"s. Execute! Data will become:

1 | 2 | 3 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 1 | 2 | 3 |

Save style (a temporary copy).

Select Ending 4, and set its time signature to 3/4, pattern length 4.
Select Assembly and get data for each channel from Intro 4. The data for Ending 4 would be:

3/4
1 2 3 | 1 2 3 | 1 2 3 | 1 2 3 |

Save style again (override).

Select Main A and change time signature to 3/4. The keyboard will say that all data will be erased, because it cannot convert time signature with data filled into it. Accept this step. Main A will be empty, but with desire time signature. Assure the pattern length is as there was before, so set it as 4. Finally, use assembly function and grab data from Ending 4. And save the style.

I think this is the correct procedure, converting a style from 4/4 to 3/4.

PS: If the style is a free style and the note lengths are equals to pattern length x bars (full pattern note), then the conversion is more simple. What I proposed here is a general conversion time signature for a style, from 4/4 to 3/4.

PS2: You can use directly Main A, instead of Ending 4. And after you finnish the convertion, does not forget to delete data from Intro 4 and Ending 4. You will not need it, and is not ok to make the size of style bigger as long as that data will not be accessible from style player.

I hope it was a good explanation!

Regards,
Vali

Many thanks.  I think I understand: you are suggesting using Intro4 and Ending4 (which have no data in them) as temporary holders for the edited measures and then Variation A (for example) can have its time signature changed which will erased all its data. At the end, I would then copy Ending4 in to VariationA.

Sounds complicated and you did warn us that it was not simple.

What about starting with a style that is already in 3/4 and then using style assembly to insert the sections (track by track, unfortunately as we have to do) from a FreePlay style.  Might that preserve the bass on the first measure and just cut off the last measure?

While the FreePlay styles have no rhthym, at least some have a bass note that is not held the entire time, but starts and stops at the beginning of the pattern. If I play that in 3/4 time (supposedly "free-tempo"), I do not get the bass note at the correct position.  Since I use fingered on bass to provide bass progressions, getting the bass note is important.

Quote from: bpsafran on Apr 10, 2025, 05:41 AMMany thanks.  I think I understand: you are suggesting using Intro4 and Ending4 (which have no data in them) as temporary holders for the edited measures and then Variation A (for example) can have its time signature changed which will erased all its data. At the end, I would then copy Ending4 in to VariationA.

Sounds complicated and you did warn us that it was not simple.

What about starting with a style that is already in 3/4 and then using style assembly to insert the sections (track by track, unfortunately as we have to do) from a FreePlay style.  Might that preserve the bass on the first measure and just cut off the last measure?

While the FreePlay styles have no rhthym, at least some have a bass note that is not held the entire time, but starts and stops at the beginning of the pattern. If I play that in 3/4 time (supposedly "free-tempo"), I do not get the bass note at the correct position.  Since I use fingered on bass to provide bass progressions, getting the bass note is important.

Again, is not so simple. You must check if the notes in the first bar are the only one in the channel, for each channel. If not, then the accent from 4/4 will not be placed correctly in the converted 3/4. Only using my method it will generate correctly the accents.
I made the schema of how the Assembly will work. If you want to only grab the data from 4/4 to 3/4, the accents will not be positioning correctly.
So, for 1 2 3 | 4 1 2 | 3 4 1 | 2 3 4 | 1 2 3 | 4 * * | accents will be on 1 and 3 (or only on 1) which will create strange accents on 3/4.

Regards,
Vali

If you are genuinely playing in free time there is no way to have a bass note programmed in the style land exactly when you play the first note of the bar. The styles are midi loops and when notes play is controlled by an internal time clock, and the tempo setting,  not by what and when you play. So it will play at the programmed time regardless of what you play. The only way to have notes in a style play as you suggest ie have the bass notes play at a particular time is to play in tempo, not out of tempo. The time signature is NOT the problem.
If you are really playing in freetime the only way to have a bass note sound exactly when you want is for you to play it.

As a side note, there have been many discussions over the years about time signatures and the bottom line is that they are pretty much irrelevant in midi loops. The notes all play relative to a time clock. The time signature on a style is really just information to you, as to how the style has been programmed and will sound. If a style has been called 4/4 ballad changing the name to 3/4 ballad changes nothing. It's still the same style with the notes landing where they are programmed according to the time clocks- not the time signature. Freestyles are exactly the same, but have been programmed to eliminate notes and sounds that set rhythmic elements. That way they 'appear' to a listener have no set tempo, although they actually still do.
Mike

Quote from: mikf on Apr 10, 2025, 08:59 AM...
As a side note, there have been many discussions over the years about time signatures and the bottom line is that they are pretty much irrelevant in midi loops. The notes all play relative to a time clock. The time signature on a style is really just information to you, as to how the style has been programmed and will sound. If a style has been called 4/4 ballad changing the name to 3/4 ballad changes nothing. It's still the same style with the notes landing where they are programmed according to the time clocks- not the time signature. Freestyles are exactly the same, but have been programmed to eliminate notes and sounds that set rhythmic elements. That way they 'appear' to a listener have no set tempo, although they actually still do.

    
I don't think I see what I've just see here! 😁 What you've wrote here is a very WRONG affirmation.

The Time Signature of a variation in a style is definitely the key in how the information is written and played in the style.

You never can say that a 3/4 time signature is the same as 4/4 time signature. 

The "time signature" is not only a string in a file name, it practically changes on how many bars are written in that style part.

A 3/4 time signature will have only 3 bars in each measure with its clocks from 0 to 1919 (1920 for a quarter note). A 4/4 time signature will have 4 bars in each measure, each bar having clocks from 0 to 1919. Do a math calculation and see how many clocks will have a 3/4 time signature measure and how many clocks will have a 4/4 time signature measure. You cannot ever say that are the same thing. They have different accents, they have different number of midi data.

I think your definition of "time signature" is something else than it is in reality!

Now, on an advanced vision, yes, indeed, you can "compress" data in a 3/4 measure as you can achive the sound of a 4/4. But this is a wrong approach, it will be very hard to quantize, it will be very hard to read each clock number for each midi data.

If you wanted to refer to something else, but I've wrongly understood, then I'm sorry!

Regards,
Vali

Quote from: valimaties on Apr 11, 2025, 01:38 AM...
If you wanted to refer to something else, but I've wrongly understood, then I'm sorry!

Yes, I think you misunderstood.

What Mike was saying is (the way I understand):
Time signature only has meaning for playing particular rhythm. But free-play accompaniment has no rhythm (no accent beats) and so time signature is irrelevant.

But even if we play rhythmic music, time signature still has a meaning only for the player -so he knows how to play the melody rhythmically correct along with accompaniment (i.e. at what beat he should change chord).

At time signature 4/4 we have four beats in the bar, where 1st beat has an accent: A-b-b-b, and at 3/4 we have three beats in the bar: A-b-b. In both cases single beat has 1920 ticks (on Yamaha). That is, at 4/4 bar has 7680 ticks and 3/4 bar has 5760 ticks.

Now let's say we have a three bar 4/4 rhythm; that is 3x4=12 beats (23040 ticks). To play exactly the same rhythm in 3/4, we need four bars: 4x3=12 beats (23040 ticks). Now we have the same number of beats in both cases and there's absolutely no musical/rhythmic difference between 4/4 and 3/4 -it's up to us if we play accent on ever 3rd or every 4th beat.

At least that's how I see all this 
Bogdan

Bogdan, In a 4/4 time signature, the accents are on 1 and 3, in mostly cases. 3 is the secondary accent in that measure. Of course, there could be some asymethrics accents, like in this one, where the accents are on 1 and 4. But in most cases accents on 4/4 are on 1 and 3. And of course, there could be some variations (like Main A) which can have the accent only on 1, where kick is used, or a bass note.

Indeed, for freestyle, as they are build, the accents should not be anywhere, as this is the purpose of a free style, to let you change the chords whenever and wherever you want, whithout hearing accents instruments.

I've made a spelling mistake in the previous post, writing bar instead of beat. Sorry for that!

hi Vali,

Quote from: valimaties on Apr 11, 2025, 03:36 AM...
I've made a spelling mistake in the previous post, writing bar instead of beat. Sorry for that!

Ah, I'm sure majority knew what you actually "mean" 

I agree with you about accents -I was referring to 1st beat so it's easier to understand.

Greetings, Bogdan

Another option to keep the player in time is to use a multipad in 3/4 time, drum or piano, at low volume.

No Valimates, I am not wrong. The programmer of the style decides where he will put the notes and accents. Obviously he puts them at the correct places for that style he is programming - on beats 2 and 4 if it is 4\4. But the keyboard only then plays them at correct position because it is then recorded on a clock. It has no knowledge of the time signature or that accents are played on beat 1 and 4 in 4/4. The keyboard knows when to play them because of the clock and the tempo set. The tempo setting essentially adjusts the clock.
If the programmer wants a 3/4 feel he has to completely re program where the notes and accents fall. In a freetime style he avoids having accents to create the illusion that the style has no tempo.
A statements like ' keeping the player in time' has no meaning when playing in freetime.
Mike

Although the style system is pretty technically complex, in some ways it's useful to grasp the big picture by understanding that it is essentially just a dumb machine. A useful analogy is to think of a simple audio recorder. If I play a series of drumbeats or piano notes into a dumb recorder, and I do so with a 4/4 feel, when I play it back it will sound exactly as I put it in. If the recorder has the facility to be speeded up or slowed down, it will still play them back relative to each other as a 4/4 feel. I can't change it to a 3/4 feel, to do so I have to start all over.
Now imagine I play a continuous note- like a violin or organ - what we refer to nowadays as a 'pad sound'. When I play it back it will have no rhythmic feel. That is essentially what a free play style is. If I wanted to I could play anything I like along with that at any speed and it just provides a continuous background.
Now, in actuality, if you play a violin the note is not absolutely continuous, or unchanging, because the bowing produces very subtle changes in sound and volume. Since it is truly going to repeat continuously that way, you could feasibly regard it as having a 'beat' or you could just ignore it. That is essentially what a freeplay style does.
When you examine the make up of styles in detail you will see that 6/8, 2/4 and 4/4 styles are often all showing that they are 4/4. That's because it really doesn't matter, like that dumb recorder it doesn't care, it just plays back what you put in - faster or slower.
Of course, that is over simplistic, because the style system is actually very sophisticated in its ability to reposition the pitch of the notes in the accompaniment, depending on the chord driver. And there are actually some areas where time signature does matter to the machine. Eg the fill length on 2/4 is half what it would be on 4/4. But without getting into the weeds and turning this into a technical paper on style systems, for current purposes, the dumb recorder analogy is valid.

When I read the OPs comments, I think that he or she is not really playing in freetime. If they were they wouldn't care about landing on a supposed beat. If they do care, but want a style that has that clear beat, but still has a very continuous background accompaniment sound, they have to design a specific but conventional style to do that. The freeplay style is not different in the way it works, it still has a changeable tempo like any other style. So one way would be to simply redo the bass line to be a little more distinct, save the style, then play it real time in the desired tempo.
Mike

Even playing without an accented beat? The OP could want to change time signatures so that the score lines up correctly with measures.

Anyway, FWIW, what *I* do? If I'm converting 4/4 to 3/4, I'll just reduce everything to 1 bar, so it only captures the first 3 beats (assuming an accent on Beat 1; if not then I redo the note velocities) then copy and paste the style parts back into itself, then I have a single measure in 3/4. Now restretch everything back out to 2 or more bars... Too repetitive? Then go in and edit so that you get 2,4 (or more) bar variations.

*However* Vali is correct, you need to do single beat measures to edit around using cut and paste; I don't have the patience for that and simply play the notes I need (yes, even for megavoice; you then edit the velocities in the midi step editor).

And yes the time signature is an arbitrary construct of the style programmer, sometimes to serve the purpose of making a tempo *exactly* match (for example, when I originally created a Top Gun style, I wanted the beat accents to be 1 & 3 so I used a tempo of 54... but that wasn't *exactly* correct, the original uses 53.5 bbpm.

Which Yamaha achieved on their Action Anthem by doing 'half bar' double time, at 107 bpm.

Likewise, I'm working on a Style for Genesis Mama; Phil Collins said (during one of the behind the scenes videos) that they used a 167 tempo, and using 8 beat hi hats at double tempo to sound like 16th notes. But I wanted to do his huge long drum fill in a single bar (not realizing at the time that the G2 can now do 2 or more bar fills by messing with the time signature)so I had to set my tempo at 83 or 84, giving me my 1,3 kicks (Phil Collins' sounds like 1 & 3, but it's on the 1 beat of his double time "half-bars")

Yes I could go back and redo it, but doing it at 1&3 accents meant i could steal a lot of the acmp from his "In The Air Tonight" style (80sAnalogBallad). The point is in both cases it will sound exactly the same to the audience (but off by 1/2 bpm), but it will score differently... it's an arbitrary choice by the style designer really.

Mark

Mark, If you just want to line up the measure count I think  you can do that more simply by just changing the style tempo to match measure time. ie if you are playing a tune in 3/4 at 60 bpm, set the 4/4 style to 1/3 more ie 80 bpm, to match measure length. (3 beats in the bar versus four).
Since there is no actual audible beat it doesn't matter that the bpm is different, as long as the measure matches. But I honestly think that's a pretty unusual concern, and not what the OP was wanting to fix and its also why the multi pad probably will not help. Because you cant set a multi pad to run at different bpm from the style. At 3 bpm it takes 3 secs to play a 3/4 bar, but 4 secs to play a 4/4 bar.
Mike