Simulate string resonance via effects on Genos2 pianos

[bpsafran]

I realize that true string resonance involves the resonance of several keys when only one is pressed. But I ask our CVP piano experts (e.g., Mark (Amwilburn)) if they might recommend how to set the effects and eq on the Genos2 pianos to mimic this better.  Sustain does not do it - at least for me.

Thanks

[mikf]

The sample on a CVP has already captured this resonance. You should not need to add more. The piano sound on a CVP is pretty good. But if you want an electronic piano to exactly simulate a great acoustic, that is probably never going to happen. And all acoustic pianos are different anyway. I have two top of the line grand pianos, and the Shigeru has a very much more mellow, sound, while the Yamaha has a more cutting sound. Both great but quite different.

In any case, is it really the piano sound or your technique? The majority of people playing arrangers play lh chords and single note rh melody. So they always think the piano sound needs fattened up. Piano players don't generally play this way, so they typically generate a fuller sound with a lot of resonance.
There are a number of 'fattened up ' piano voices around, and you can probably find them on the forum. But I would never use them because when piano is played properly they usually sound fuzzy, and not clean.

While there are always different opinions on any voices, Yamaha are the biggest piano maker in history. So if there is one thing they know how to optimize it's a piano voice. And IMHO they have already done that pretty well on the CVP. But by all means search around for a different voice on this forum. You will find several. But playing it better is the real answer.
Mike 

[bpsafran]

The sample on a CVP has already captured this resonance. You should not need to add more. The piano sound on a CVP is pretty good. But if you want an electronic piano to exactly simulate a great acoustic, that is probably never going to happen. And all acoustic pianos are different anyway. I have two top of the line grand pianos, and the Shigeru has a very much more mellow, sound, while the Yamaha has a more cutting sound. Both great but quite different.

In any case, is it really the piano sound or your technique? The majority of people playing arrangers play lh chords and single note rh melody. So they always think the piano sound needs fattened up. Piano players don't generally play this way, so they typically generate a fuller sound with a lot of resonance.
There are a number of 'fattened up ' piano voices around, and you can probably find them on the forum. But I would never use them because when piano is played properly they usually sound fuzzy, and not clean.

While there are always different opinions on any voices, Yamaha are the biggest piano maker in history. So if there is one thing they know how to optimize it's a piano voice. And IMHO they have already done that pretty well on the CVP. But by all means search around for a different voice on this forum. You will find several. But playing it better is the real answer.
Mike 

Thanks, but I was not asking about the CVP which has the resonance effect, but rather how to set the effects for the CFX piano on Genos2 to mimic the resonance.

[BogdanH]

The way resonance occurs on a real piano (at what circumstances) is quite complex and is impossible to mimic on (today's) arranger keyboards -at least not properly.
Some might think, that resonance is the sound coming from piano body which resonates with strings -but it's not that (and not that simple).
For general readers, here's a good explanation of what's all about (if needed, turn subtitles on and translate to english): Piano resonance

No effect (or sound setting) can imitate resonance.. simply because resonance is dependent on each note separately, combined with (some) other notes.
I think that's only possible if some special sound processing algorithm is implemented in keyboard.. and probably also separate resonance samples... it's complicated 


Bogdan

[mikf]

It doesn't change anything I said because piano samples across most Yamaha arrangers including the CVP are not that different. And the Genos 2 probably has either the same sample or maybe a slightly better one. Good sampling already captures resonance. You can't add this with effects. You can find other ways to alter or 'fatten' the sound with effects, but you either captured resonance in the sample or you didn't.
But that's not the whole story because resonance changes depending on touch, the use of multiple simultaneous notes, sustain pedals, and technique. No sample can capture all of that because it has endless possibilities. That's why we love real pianos.
You can maybe obtain and load a different piano sample. But don't delude yourself, it won't be a marked difference if you are a typical arranger player using one note melody lines. We conducted a blind test on this forum several years ago using samples from several arrangers dating back over 20 years to the PSR 3000, and against a pretty recent CVP. Most people could not pick out the CVP.

 Mike

[DerekA]

The Genos (1 and 2) have a dedicated DSP effect called "damper resonance". Play around with the parameters to see if it helps you.

[Amwilburn]

A little late to the party, but what Derek said, yes.
The real issue is that the portable arrangers don't have VRM, so yes, the same piano sample on a PSR/Genos sounds quite different from on a CLP or CVP (and they use different types of VRM for different models, to boot!). You could turn up the pedal control of the damper DSP (slightly, it starts at 0, at 127 all you'll hear is the resonance, I'd keep it under 34) and likewise the Dry/wet mix (it's 38 dry>wet, if you spint it right it will become more 'wet' ie more resonance, but even a slight change is *very* noticeable)

Also, reverb makes a difference. On Genos 1, I'd use Real Room +, Real Medium Hall+
On Genos2, for piano, I'd use Revelation Church, Concert Hall, or Medium Hall

[mikf]

Mark, you say 'sounds quite different', but I wonder if that is really the case for the average person. You sell these instruments, you have them all virtually side by side, and play and hear them all every day. So I have no doubt your experience and ear can discern quite subtle differences. Then there is the quality of the keyboard which gives much better piano touch on a CVP, and that also contributes to the perception. And it is your job to point out the differences.
But if you record some pure piano as a midi on the CVP, then transfer the midi to a Genos, and of course use a similar sound system, will the average person spot a difference on a blind listening? I have no doubt you could, but the average player......?
We did this test here years ago and the answer was not only a resounding 'no', they mostly couldn't even tell the CVP from the old psr3000.
Bottom line... the sample is much, much less of a difference than how it is played, the sound system and the quality of the keyboard. Remember Dalekwars, who used to post piano pieces, many of them classical, on I think a psr950. They were brilliant, and sounded as like a 'real piano' as makes no difference. But then he had been a professional concert pianist.
Mike

[Amwilburn]

Mike, that's all true, too! The player makes as much difference (if not moreso!), agreed.