Drum Setup - edited drum channel loads second time only

[valimaties]

Hi.

I have an issue with styles that have drum elements edited in Style Creator - Drum Setup.
After I save the style, I also save a registration on one of my registration banks. Mainly on the 1st reg in reg bank.
The problem comes when I change the registration bank (so, selecting another style). Caming back to my registration, which must loading my edited style, with elements edited in Drum Setup, it firstly load the initial style. I have to load the style again by opening Style page (click on the main screen style name -> re-select the style). It's like somehow the registration does keep the original data of the drum channel, not the edited one.

Somebody have this issue?

Thanks,
Vali

[valimaties]

No one are using registrations which recall edited styles with edited drum parameters?

[terryB]

I havent done it myself, but I think you must save the edited style to a new user style to call up into the registration

Cheers Terry

[valimaties]

@terryB , I have changed the style in registration, saved registration bank, changed back to my style in the registration and re-saved the registration bank. I also created a new registration with this style. Every time I load the registration the style will play without the edited parameters in drum. I need to reload manually the style, and this is frustrating.

And why is frustrating, because the edited drum contains another snare from another kit, contains edited toms, and cymbals (small decay). And if the edited parameters are not loaded, is a problem changing the registration and playing with the style without those modifications. Very frustrating!!!

[Amwilburn]

Sorry, I missed this: yes, once you load up another version of the style, it will load the voices and sounds for that style, not your registration.

The trick to doing something related: where I'm creating a style, while creating the registration, and editing the voice changes (sometimes as part of the style, sometimes as part of the registraion, but I want the voice settings, and style on/off parts that I've already set in the registration)

I save a style, let's say "Top Gun G2". Then I save v1, v2, v3, but the registration always references the original file. Then everytime I update Top Gun G2 (Top Gun G2 v1, Top Gun G2 v2, top Gun G2 v3, etc) I copy that copy of that style back onto the original "Top Gun G2"... as far as the registration knows, I haven't changed the file, so all my registration voice settings are still there.

There *is* a caveat though: if you *want* the drum to change to a different kit, for example, you might have to manually resave *that* change. Ideally it's best to have the desired voice changes on the style first before you start changing them for specific registrations, but  this is the workaround I use when i'm still editing and creating a style at the same time I'm editing and creating a registration. I'm assuming you have style ticked in registration.

*However* I haven't encountered the *exact* same situation you describe; I think you said you're using custom edits of a style in registration, then loading a different registration (does it load the same custom style, btw?) and then loading back to your original registration, and it's somehow forgetting the voice assignments you did the first time? Is that correct, Vali?

Sorry, I missed this because I'm spread across 3 forums, and naturally answer the questions first on the I'm that I'm still a moderator for. But I do eventually get here!

Mark

[valimaties]

@Amwilburn Hi Mark. Is not like this, as you said.

So, I have a style, custom one.

Step 1: I edit it in Style creator, working on Drum Setup. Let say, I need some modification I want to make to Kick, some Resonance to add, set the Chorus, Reverb and Variation to 0 (I don't want any of these for kick), then I choose another snare for the key playing snare, from another kit, then adding some Decay1 and Decay2 for one of the cymbals, to short its trail. After I made these adjustments, I save the style.

Step 2: I create a registration with this style, and save it to a registration bank. It is a NEW registration in a NEW Registration bank. No style editing after this step, no registration edit after this step.

I load registration. Everything works fine. After this, I change registration, I load another registration with another style, for another song from another bank. Everything works fine for this one, as long as the style is a factory one, or a custom one without edited drum in it.
Coming back to my registration bank which creates the issue, and load the registration having drum setup parameters changed. TADA!!! PROBLEM! The style playing it plays WITHOUT the edited parameters: I hear the trail for cymbal, I hear another snare, the kick has not the resonance I set, and I hear some reverb to it. So, it plays the style without my edits.

I hope this time is clear 

Regards,
Vali

[tyrosaurus]

Hi Vali,

I don't have a solution for your problem, but it doesn't seem to happen on my Genos(1).

Usually I don't use the drum setup function but out of interest I thought that I would check it out.

So I modified a preset style with various parameters changed (including sounds from a different kit and other settings that made it obvious that the modified style was playing).  I saved the style into User and memorised it in a registration in a new bank. I also made further (audibly obvious) modifications to the drum setup and saved this version of the style to USB. I memorised this into another registration in the same bank.

When this bank is called up the registrations consistently call up the correct modification of the style by just pressing the button once, even if I had previously manually loaded the original preset style. I even opened each of the styles called up in Style Creator and checked that all of the drum setup changes had been saved - which they had been!
 
I can't believe that Yamaha intended to change this for Genos2, so it may be an issue with the firmware or perhaps the registration format which seems to be changed with each new model (as I'm sure, Murray Best will confirm  ).)!

Perhaps someone with a Genos2 could spare 5 minutes to try it out on their keyboard. This should show whether it is a firmware issue or not.

Regards

Ian

[Amwilburn]

@Amwilburn Hi Mark. Is not like this, as you said.

So, I have a style, custom one.

Step 1: I edit it in Style creator, working on Drum Setup. Let say, I need some modification I want to make to Kick, some Resonance to add, set the Chorus, Reverb and Variation to 0 (I don't want any of these for kick), then I choose another snare for the key playing snare, from another kit, then adding some Decay1 and Decay2 for one of the cymbals, to short its trail. After I made these adjustments, I save the style.

Step 2: I create a registration with this style, and save it to a registration bank. It is a NEW registration in a NEW Registration bank. No style editing after this step, no registration edit after this step.

I load registration. Everything works fine. After this, I change registration, I load another registration with another style, for another song from another bank. Everything works fine for this one, as long as the style is a factory one, or a custom one without edited drum in it.
Coming back to my registration bank which creates the issue, and load the registration having drum setup parameters changed. TADA!!! PROBLEM! The style playing it plays WITHOUT the edited parameters: I hear the trail for cymbal, I hear another snare, the kick has not the resonance I set, and I hear some reverb to it. So, it plays the style without my edits.

I hope this time is clear 

Regards,
Vali

Yes, that was what I was afraid you meant (hence the final line of my question). I said afraid of, because no, that doesn't happen to me; if I load a registration with edited parameters for drums, and come back later to load it, it's saved.

So I now have to ask,
1) What OS are you one? 1.20?
2) When was the last time you "cleared the cache"? As I've mentioned on here before, it's advisable to do a clear every 6 months or so, or else weird behaviors start happening (I forgot to clear my own CVP for 2 years, and one day it started dropping the middle note of any triad chords that I played! I thought there was something wrong with my beloved instrument; called the repair tech over for nothing. "You did clear the memory, right"? Oops. Nope.

We both had a laugh about it because *I* should know better... I'm the only salesperson in Canada that's also an authorized repair tech, but I hadn't received that designation *yet* when this happened)

All you do to clear it, btw, is turn it off, hold the rightmost white key (usually C, except on a 76 key it's the G) and while holding it down, turn it on and keep holding it until you see "init" or "initializing" on the screen

Now, if I recall, your G2 is less than 6 months old, so that's probably not it either, and the odds are that you've actually found a bug.

I can bring it to Yamaha's attention (I'm the one who brought the sustain disappearing 'patch remain' issue to them after Dennis Bu discovered it on his sx920... hillariously nobody had noticed the same issue existed on *every* keyboard since 2022, including Korg Pa5x, and even Yamaha CVP909... the CVP is especially baffling since it's nearly identical to the 809, which *doesn't* have the 'patch remain sustain' issue. But I can only do so if I can recreate your bug.

I'd ask for a copy of your custom style *with* and without the edits (I guess the registration would help me narrow it down, too).

Please note the fragmented memory due to lack of destructors to matching constructors in coding (always happens; no matter what platform/ coding language), will also be saved in your registrations that you program whilst memory is corrupted (so I really don't want to load your registration unless we can't find any other way). I found this out the hard way; I'd been programming registrations during the period when my CVP was dropping notes, and any registration I'd created at that period had the same issue. I had to initialize, after writing down my registrations, and re-coding them from scratch.

Then again, even less than 6 months old, *you* might do enough programming to need a memory clear

Initializing the keyboard this way doesn't touch any of your user files, but *does* reset split point, fingering, tuning, scale tuning, pedal assignments, and assignable buttons to factory setup. *All* of these things you can literally reload from your factory state registration (every new keyboard that comes in, I create a 'default' registration of whatever the keyboard initially boots up to, except I change fingering to AI if it isn't already, because I can't stand accidentally triggering single finger mode (the ABC single finger mode from the 70s, which is *still* present as an option in modern arrangers)

And yes I'm coding custom drum kit assignments on my Genos 2 as well, and I *did* stumble across the same issue you describe (when I was programming the Axel F registration and style). I had to do an initialize to finally get it to 'stick' properly... I'd forgotten the display G2 was already over a year old, needed to be initialized again. I know I said I hadn't encountered your exact situation, but I'd actually forgotten about this because I initialized and moved on and it worked; it's become 2nd nature after programming registrations for 41 years now (they first showed up in 1984). You know how you sometimes you forget that you fixed something out of habit? yeah, that.

It's now coming up on 18 months, I should initialize again just in case.

Mark

[valimaties]

Thanks Ian and Mark.

I already mailed Murray to see what is wrong, and he gave me some solutions, but none worked for me.

My keyboard is 3 months old, and it was new, I have unboxed it. I personally update the firmware to 1.20, as it comes with 1.01. I don't think it needs a cleanup procedure but I can try.

I will also send my registration and the style to Yamaha, to see what is wrong with them. And btw, it was not happening only on G2, it happens on G1 as well with some other old custom style I personally made from scratch on the keyboard, but in the same way, I mean using custom parameters in drum setup and call it from a registration. 

Keep in touch...

Regards,
Vali

[ckobu]

Hello Vali,
I'm following the topic but I don't know why your problem is occurring. You can also send me the Registration and Style, maybe I'll think of something when I see the Style structure.

regards, casper

[BogdanH]

I'm following this thread too, but because it is/was about Genos2, I didn't comment.
However:

...
And btw, it was not happening only on G2, it happens on G1 as well ...

I don't have Genos, but SX700 is pretty much based on Genos1 (with less features obviously) and all I can say is, customized drum setup is memorized in registrations -or to be more precise, custom drum setup is actually memorized in the style (registration only loads the style).

In short: On SX700, custom drum setup settings are preserved for a style, regardless if I select that particular style manually or if I use it from registrations, or if I switch registration banks in between.

Just my 2c,
Bogdan

[Amwilburn]

Bogdan: The sx700 is actually the same sound library as my s970 (which I own, so we basically own the same keyboard library), which is in turn based off the Tyros 4, not the Genos (sx700/s970 are actually all the sounds of the T4, plus the drums of the T5, minus *all* the S.Art2 sounds, and minus all the non "ooh-ahh" choir sounds. That's right, we both own the stripped down version of the excellent Yamaha choirs introduced in T4)

The sx900 uses the sound library of the T5 (love those Twin Guitars, especially the Megavoice strum versions), plus live (non revo) versions of the G1 Revo drums, minus all the S.Art2 sounds. Which is why it drove me batty when people kept calling sx900 baby Genos; it's not. The sx920 *is* a baby Genos (contains all of the G1 sounds, plus at least 1 piano from G2!, but none of the reverbs, or new revo or ambient drums from G2, and minus 63 of the 75 S.Art2 voices from G1, but also the addition of Guests are not allowed to view links. In order to access the links, please Register or Login+, which is a really useful addition.)

Vali: I'm guessing your next question is why don't other keyboards require memory clearing? Well, Yamaha didn't used to either until around 2002; before that you shut off your keyboard, turn it on, it's always back to a new state because no persistent memory. But then people complained they lost the active registration if they accidentally turned off/ unplugged, etc, so Yamaha made the memory persistent.  So yes, the same thing would happen on G1. In fact, going all the way back to T2 (maybe even T1, I don't recall), this can happen now.

With that came the issue of not making enough destructors to match the number of constructors when allocating memory, causing memory fragmentation (same reason you need to reboot your PC periodically).

With most people it'll take at least 6 months to notice anything weird because of this; I've had customers who didn't reboot for a couple of years and didn't notice anything because they aren't programming anything. But considering how much content you probably create, I can see you needing to reboot even more often than 6 months. Yes it's slightly annoying, but it's better than accidentally losing the registration you were working on (weirdly, I think that's the *only* persistent memory; they keyboards don't remember what style/midi/etc I was working on)

And remember, the extra few seconds it takes to re initialize the memory *every* time you boot up G1/G2? Is still *less* time taken than rebooting PA5x/Pa4x. So it's not really *that* much to ask.

Mark

[BogdanH]

Bogdan: The sx700 is actually the same sound library as my s970 (which I own, so we basically own the same keyboard library), which is in turn based off the Tyros 4, not the Genos ...

Hi Mark,
I didn't have keyboard content in mind. I was more thinking about OS: SX700/900 is the first touch display based keyboard after Genos1, first PSR with three RH voices, etc. I would guess that SX OS is cloned from Genos1 (stripped down, obviously) and so I expect the same registrations behavior (the same background processes).

Greetings, Bogdan

[Amwilburn]

Sorry, I misunderstood!

Yes, you are quite correct! The OS is shared, yes. G1/sx700/sx900/A5000 all basically have the same OS (but they added variable time sig to the A5000 one). Hence why any bug affects all 4 collectively; e.g the fact that they accidentally removed the ability to render chord step recording using user styles across all 4 models; or the lack of patch remain/ sustain that affected G2/sx920/sx720 before Yamaha corrected all 3... I still haven't seen a fix for CVP909 yet, though... and yes, this sustain while turning off the voice worked on all previous models, so it was definitely a bug; as was the custom style chord step recording (which *was* brought back in G2/sx920/sx720, and was in all previous Yamaha arrangers as well)