Can I use FC7 expression padal with i500 keyboard ?

[shirish]

Hi,
I have bought new i500. It has only one port for pedal control. The manual mentions that I can use it only as sustain pedal with FC4 or FC5 pedals.
Is there any way I can use expression control (volume control) on i500 keyboard ?
If not inbuilt, can I connect any external devices to create expression control with FC7 like pedals ?
Please help.
Thanks,

[BogdanH]

hello shirish, welcome to the forum.
As far I know, there's no way to use expression pedal (to control the volume) on i500.

Bogdan

[shirish]

Thank you @Bogdan

It may not be possible directly, but is it possible to use any external devices that will help controlling the volume ?
I am not expert at this but just imagining !
If I connect my Lineout to a device which also has a port for FC7 like expression inputs (basically potentiometers) and then the device connects its output to the mixer. I can then connect FC7 and control the volume. Is this possible ? Are there any such devices ?
Thanks in advance.

[BogdanH]

I don't know if there's a device that would make that possible. And even if there would be such a device, then that would only be a replacement for volume knob on your keyboard. That is, by pressing the pedal, you would change volume of the whole keyboard -and that's no what we want. With expression pedal we only wish to influence volume of what we're playing with left and/or right hand (not the volume of the style).
What I'm saying is, such solution would only be usable if you don't use the accompaniments (for example, you're only playing organ voice without using styles).

Bogdan

[SciNote]

I don't know if there's a device that would make that possible. And even if there would be such a device, then that would only be a replacement for volume knob on your keyboard. That is, by pressing the pedal, you would change volume of the whole keyboard -and that's no what we want. With expression pedal we only wish to influence volume of what we're playing with left and/or right hand (not the volume of the style).
What I'm saying is, such solution would only be usable if you don't use the accompaniments (for example, you're only playing organ voice without using styles).

Bogdan

This is not necessarily the case.  I learned how to play keyboard on a traditional home organ, and on those, at least on the models available at the time (late 1970's to early 1980's), the expression pedal controlled the volume of everything at once -- all keyboards, bass pedals, drums, and any backing automatic accompaniment, if one was in use.  To this day, one of my set-ups is a multi-keyboard system with bass pedals all going through a mixer, then to an amp and speakers.  And yes, I have a stereo expression pedal in line between the mixer and the amp that controls the volume of everything.  However, I normally only use the styles for the drums.

Without opening the keyboard and modifying the circuitry, there is no way to have an expression pedal control the volume of the I500's built-in speakers -- and the same is true of any of the current PSR-E keyboards, as well.  So, the only way that I know of to accomplish this is to essentially do what I did.  Use the phones jack as a line out, run the line through a stereo expression pedal, with the outputs of the expression pedal going to the inputs of a stereo amp and speakers.  Unless you're running other keyboards or audio equipment at the same time, you probably do not need a mixer.

You'll probably need to get an adapter plug that has a 1/4 inch stereo male plug that plugs into the I500's headphone jack and then splits that into two 1/4 inch mono jacks (left and right) to allow you to run the stereo signal through a stereo expression pedal, as the expression pedal will likely have separate left and right inputs and separate left and right outputs, all using 1/4 inch mono jacks.  And then, any adapters and audio cables you might need at that point depend on what kind of amp you're using and what kind of input jacks it has.

You definitely want to keep everything stereo.  If you just combine the left and right outputs of the I500 into a mono signal, you'll lose all sorts of imaging and fullness of the sound.

[shirish]

Thank you @BogdanH and @SciNote.

@BogdanH
Yes I understand that I will be controlling the full output volume and not just the lead or right part of the keyboard. But I will accept that limitation.

@SciNote
Yes, thanks for your help. The expression pedal FC7 of Yamaha does not have such 4 ports, 2 in + 2 out to keep the stereo in place, as you have mentioned. I have further questions, please help.
1   Clearly FC7 cannot be used. Do I have look for an alternate expression pedal ? Can you please suggest one ?
2   Additional 2 lines in and out can create noise pickup at the pedal, after several months of usage, as it is a moving part. Is this assumption reasonable ?
3   Also, this is a very long shot ... I have seen some other devices that work with MIDI out Port and let you connect an expression pedal. They call it MIDI Expression - please check https://www.audiofront.net/MIDIExpression.php   - Will this be useful to achieve volume control ? I wish to play this in live music on stage. So will this kind of thing work ? Off course i500, i see no separate MIDI out port, then I may have to buy MIDI Adapter that connects to USB or Phone out ? Again, I am not an expert, just imagining.

Thank you!!!

[SciNote]

You are correct in that you would not be able to use the FC7 with the method that I suggested using the external amp and speakers.  There are a variety of stereo volume pedals that have the left and right inputs and outputs like I described.  I believe I am using one by Boss, but I'll have to check it.  I do know that there are two kinds, related to the overall resistance or impedance of the pedal.  It's been a while since I bought mine, but I believe one type is for regular line-in levels, like what we would be using with the output of our keyboards, and the other type is for use with an electric guitar or other device that outputs a significantly lower level signal.  If you use the wrong type of pedal, then it will either be too sensitive, where just a small amount of pedal travel will go from silence to blasting, or not sensitive enough, where even full pedal travel would have little effect.

I have not noticed any real noise issues with the pedal I am using now, but I did notice noise with a previous model.  It was just a lower quality pedal that started going bad.  Also note, however, that most of the music I play is rock, pop, movie/TV themes, and other louder types of music, so I don't usually have very quiet passages where such noise would be more noticeable.

I took a look at the link you provided for those MIDI pedals.  Honestly, I know very little about MIDI.  I was wondering if having some sort of interface with MIDI could control the volume, but I don't think that overall keyboard volume is a MIDI function.  It seems to me that the volume of the notes being played by MIDI is dependent on the data being sent with each note, and the volume settings of the device that is playing the MIDI data.  I didn't see anything about overall volume control in the advertisement in that link.  However, maybe someone with more knowledge of MIDI can weigh in on this.

Finally, I imagine that you've been playing the keyboard and have determined that a pedal would be beneficial to you.  However, have you tried just experimenting with the touch sensitivity?  I've played a couple live gigs recently, and I didn't use my pedal for the gigs.  I was using a set-up where I stand up, so the only pedal I used was a sustain pedal on my PSR-E433 (I also use a Roland Gaia SH-01 synth with it).  And I didn't really miss the pedal -- I just use touch sensitivity to control the volume of the music while playing.  However, as I said before, I mainly play music that is typically a moderate to loud volume, without too many dynamic changes throughout the songs, so that would also play a part.

I'll post again once I get a look at the pedal that I'm using -- as well as the one that went bad -- and let you know what brand/model those are if that information is printed on the pedals.

*** EDIT ***

I checked -- I am currently using a BOSS pedal, but I could not find a definitive model number on it.  The old pedal that started getting noise is branded as a company called Daphon.  Again, no clear model number on it.  I remember the jacks were pretty close together, causing the plugs to fit tightly and push against each other -- maybe that eventually caused a bad internal connection, leading to the noise.

I did a quick check on Sweetwater's site, and there are not too many stereo volume pedals there, but there are a few.  And they distinguish between "volume pedal" and "expression pedal".  I'm not sure, but I think a volume pedal is what I've been describing -- something to attenuate the audio signal before it goes to the amp.  And I think an expression pedal is meant to hook directly into a compatible keyboard or other musical instrument, where it controls selected parameters on the instrument directly.  At least, that's what seems to be the case.

[casiokid]

Expression pedals are for the 'Wah Wah ' effect more than a gradual controlled transition of volume

[SciNote]

Expression pedals are for the 'Wah Wah ' effect more than a gradual controlled transition of volume

That would be in line with what I was thinking.  If a pedal is creating a wah-wah effect with a keyboard, then that pedal is most likely controlling the cutoff point of a low pass filter in the keyboard.

[BogdanH]

hello shirish,
I think the MIDI Expression pedal that you mentioned would do the trick. I'm not some midi expert, but if you check i500 MIDI specification, then you can see that i500 can recognize Expression (and many other) commands. I didn't go trough whole MIDI Expression pedal manual, but from what I saw, it seems to be programmable. That means, it can also simulate expression pedal. In short, it would work as you would have expression connector on keyboard -the only difference is, it's connected to USB port. And also very important: there will be no additional noise.
I can't guarantee that it will work... but it's not some big money and I would definitely try it.

Bogdan

[pjd]

Short answer: Consider using a foot volume pedal like the Boss/Roland FV-500L. There are other, cheaper alternatives on the market. This pedal will let you adjust the total audio volume from the keyboard.

I don't think I would attempt the MIDI route with the I500 (essentially an E-series with regional content). First, you face the issue of getting the MIDI messages into the I500 from the pedal. Next, you need to get the I500 to properly recognize and handle the MIDI expression messages. The I500 MIDI control parameters (i.e., "The Functions") aren't up to the task.

I owned an E443 at one time and wouldn't have attempted a MIDI expression pedal. It would be an exercise in frustration.

Hope this keeps you from tearing out your hair! -- pj   

[shirish]

Thank you @pjd  @BogdanH @SciNote.

I agree with @pjd, controlling it with MIDI expression looks a bit dicey. Will need time to set it up and validate. I will park that idea for now.

I tried to go with touch setting to manage the volumes. But this is bit scratchy as my fingers are not trained on touch sensitive keyboard! So All  fingers do not apply similar pressure and so some notes are heard at higher volume ... for playing chords it may not be so relevant, but any lead is not sounding good. Any ideas as to what can be done for this ?

I will go for a volume control pedal with 2 line in and 2 line out, like the one @SciNote has described (Boss) etc. They seem fairly expensive though... Will post my experience with these pedals. Sweetwater have a couple of them available.

Than you for all your help.... Really appreciate you all.

Shirish

[pjd]

Best of luck!

Those Boss pedals are darned well indestructible. They last a long time. I forgot to mention the BOSS FV-30L -- it is smaller and lighter than the FV-500L. Only slightly less expensive, I'm afraid...

-- pj

[SciNote]

Thank you @pjd  @BogdanH @SciNote.

I agree with @pjd, controlling it with MIDI expression looks a bit dicey. Will need time to set it up and validate. I will park that idea for now.

I tried to go with touch setting to manage the volumes. But this is bit scratchy as my fingers are not trained on touch sensitive keyboard! So All  fingers do not apply similar pressure and so some notes are heard at higher volume ... for playing chords it may not be so relevant, but any lead is not sounding good. Any ideas as to what can be done for this ?

I will go for a volume control pedal with 2 line in and 2 line out, like the one @SciNote has described (Boss) etc. They seem fairly expensive though... Will post my experience with these pedals. Sweetwater have a couple of them available.

Than you for all your help.... Really appreciate you all.

Shirish

There should be a function setting on your keyboard to adjust the sensitivity of the touch response of the keyboard.  If it's anything like my E433, you should be able to turn it off completely, so that every note has the same volume and brightness no matter how hard you strike it, or turn it to a low sensitivity, so that you still get some variation of response to give you some control over the timbre of the notes you play without it being overly sensitive.

Don't forget to check out pjd's suggestions above for pedals, and make sure you get one designed for keyboard use -- instruments with electric line-outs with enough power to drive headphones -- and not designed for passive, non-powered instruments.  Let us know how it works out!