make beautiful sound sets

[georges]

Hello everyone.
I'm asking a somewhat original question, but I hope I get some answers. Since I have a Genos, and he's a fantastic arranger, I often do orchestral type compositions. This means that my creations are very powerful in sound and I occupy all possible channels, right, left, pad etc.
they are often symphonic in form.
so I would like to know if there is a tutorial, a video, or comments that allow me to know:
what instruments can be programmed together to have a beautiful overall orchestral output?
In fact I would like to avoid making mistakes with instrument connections that don't sound good together.
Is there a table or tables that allow you to see beautiful instrument associations?

for example: the memory registers created by Yamaha present a beautiful set of sounds

I thank you friends

[mikf]

Georges
I think you are looking for advice in the wrong place. You need to look into tutorials on orchestral arranging. What instruments sound good together or not is a musical thing rather than a keyboard or electronic device thing. And also what sounds good is often dependent on what they are playing rather than any formula, and is often in the ear of the beholder, to paraphrase a well known saying.
This is the whole art of arranging. Orchestral arranging is something that takes time, training and talent. 
Mike

[andyg]

I agree 100%. It's not the instrument, it's the skills of the person doing the arranging and orchestration that are important here, for the reasons mikf mentioned. It's not something that's easy, or that comes naturally to many people, and it takes time to develop those skills. I've been playing pro for 54 years and I would not consider myself to have all the skills I'd like to have. I have arranged and orchestrated at a symphonic level more than a few times, for live performance on a digital organ like my Roland AT900 Platinum, but that pales into insignificance compared to what I'd have to do with a real symphony orchestra. I'd need some help with that, for sure!

Once you have mastery of those skills, at least to the level that you aspire to, you then need to develop a second skill set, that of using the keyboard, its sounds, voices and functions to realise those orchestrations.

[georges]

Thank you gentlemen for your very competent responses. However, perhaps I should have been a little more specific in my question. In fact I agree that knowing how to compose an orchestration is a profession, for which it takes years, like all professions which relate to art, music, literature. I totally agree with all of you. my question was how to compose an orchestration to avoid an elementary error, for example that of coupling an organ and a percussion like a bongoafrican
When I asked this question it was because I attended symphony shows, where the songs and singers are POP music artists, like Jonnhy Haliday who unfortunately died today. Their music, their composition, which was made for disco pop, has become symphonic works. And where he does songs with guitars, their songs are performed with violins, brass instruments, etc., and it's very beautiful. I do not have the pretension, nor the ambition to do like these conductors, I am a modest musician, but I think that with a little effort and advice, I could do other than select my voices, and try to do it a little differently, make it a little more beautiful. This will be my goal, and to remain very modest.
I thank you for your answers

[overover]

Hi georges,

You could analyze the instrumentation of (preset) Styles or good-sounding MIDI Song files in the genre you want (e.g. used voices, volumes, effect settings in style parts, OTS and MIDI file parts). You can do this directly on the keyboard (Mixer display) or, for example, on the PC in the "MixMaster" program.

By the way, you can find many free orchestral type MIDI files on the Internet where you can study the instrumentation (but unfortunately also a lot of useless junk MIDI files...).


Best regards,
Chris

[mikf]

I think the answer is really just the same. It's about training and experience. Some mistakes will be obvious you will know immediately. That will be trial and error. But, beyond that, this forum is not really where you will find that kind of expertise.
Mike

[DrakeM]

I think you should start my examining by listening to recordings of the type/style of music you wish to create.

This is what I observe at a concert, jazz and big band groups in my local area.
Watch what instruments are seated together on the stage. While listening pay attention to which instruments are used together.

As an example: I have found I can use a horn section to replace back up singers that I hear on a recording. Other times a string section works better. Use your ears and decide if what you hear expresses the mood you are wanting to create for the song.

I have discovered that I can also mix two different Horn riffs together and in another case 2 different fiddle riffs together to create the perfect backing section for my songs.

If you are totally just starting out, I think it would be best to try and recreate the actual recording as close as is if you can. Start with a simple song arrangement.     

[Ed B]

In answer to your specific question there are instrument groups which are generally used together in different genres of  digital music  .
For Classical music which you are addressing:
Orchestra: flute, violin, viola, cello, contrabass, oboe, horns, clarinet, trumpet, tuba, string pad, woodwind pad , brass pad, Timpani.
String Ensemble: Violin, cello, viola, contrabass, string pad.
To get a beautiful sound you must consider much more than what instruments to use but also the role of each in various parts of the arrangement and the mixing of the instruments and how to play them.
Mixing is the stage where you create depth and quality to an arrangement. It also usually where you will add special effects, decide on the stereo placement of voices, adjust velocity and reverb or even decide on the length of a part in the mix. All which create a sound field
There is a 3 dimensional arrangement between panning, velocity and reverb. Panning sets the position on the stage from the left to right, velocity and reverb controls how far back or forward the instrument is located. Pitch can also have a bearing so it is wise to separate similar pitched instruments in different horizontal locations to avoid interference. Panning is critical to the makeup of your stereo image.  A stereo image has two basic perspectives, left to right and front to back. Pan midi control 10 control the left and right axis.  Volume control 7, reverb control, delay, filtering and ambience create the front and back.
Instruments that we perceive to be closer are louder and are drier (less reverb), because you experience less reflected, sound and brighter.  The elements of the mix that are important are up front and we hear them most clearly.  Those in the back may have more early  reflections infused into the main sound of the instrument and are lower in velocity sometimes the highs in these further back sounds can be rolled to increase the effect of distance.  In your mix, you might create a reverb just for these early reflections that is separate from the main, hall reverb.  Why is that? Consider being at a concert hall.  The loud elements may bounce off the back wall and ceiling even though they are up front.  Yet the softer instruments in the back may be imbued with reflections but very little of the sound energy may actually bounce off the back wall.
The main thing here is to keep instruments out of the way of each other so the listener can hear them clearly.
There are also some playing techniques such as: Yamaha demonstrators frequently use the sustain pedal to add ambiance to the sound of strings when playing.  Do not use this on low sections because it can sound muddy. Also, make sure you play wood instruments allowing time for the player to take a breath.
There are a couple of articles on the main forum on arranging:
https://psrtutorial.com/lessons/workshops/H5-arranging.html
As has been said by others you need to do a lot of listening to what others have done and take a look at some of the styles. Some pieces can best be created using mutli-tracking,

My two cents.
Ed B

[mikf]

No one can cover even the basics of orchestration in a forum post. Symphonic arrangement and orchestration are probably the most advanced and complex task of the musical art/science. Even lifetime musicians like Andyg who have actually tackled real orchestral arrangement know that they only know enough to know how little they know. It would be like trying to teach someone nuclear physics in a forum post.
The only realistic answer to the OP is that you are in the wrong place if you want to understand how to make beautiful symphonic orchestrations.
Mike

[pjd]

You could read Dave Stewart's series of articles about orchestration in Sound On Sound magazine. Here is a link to the first article:

https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques/sampled-orchestra-part1

Hope this helps -- pj

[georges]

I thank you all for your answers on the question of orchestration and beautiful sound ensembles. Of course, since the beginning of my question, I have never claimed to make our forum an academy or a great conservatory of Orchestration. Contrary to what MIKF says, which is rather negative.
I consider that all questions concerning music can be discussed and receive opinions and interesting ideas.
I also note that some of you responded with long, very competent messages, with examples, and even links that allow for better understanding.
This is how I understand our forum, trying to understand and respond when a member asks a musical question. For me, everything you said will allow me to get off to a better start, that's what I'm trying to do, and the links that some have given have helped me a lot.
I agree that orchestration is very complex, since it is an entire art, which cannot be learned in a day, but the goal is to understand and start one day to try to do it .
Thank you all. Georges

[mikf]

I don't think I am negative, just realistic. I have been on this forum for years and have a pretty good handle on the level of expertise among the members. I am constantly amazed at the depth of knowledge people have on the functions of these arrangers. But by and large, musically, that knowledge is not matched.
I'm glad you found the advice you got useful, but just remember some of it is coming from people with no musical training who play simple tunes in one key with one finger. That is a large part of the arranger world.
Mike

[Christophermoment]

For some reason pompous and pretentious come to mind. 

[BogdanH]

...
I'm glad you found the advice you got useful, but just remember some of it is coming from people with no musical training who play simple tunes in one key with one finger. That is a large part of the arranger world.
Mike

Hahaha, yep, that's quite true -for me too 
I think that the arranger keyboard is to blame or praise for that. The thing is, we play for the whole band (style) and usually only replace main melody (singing) with the voice that we play. And to do that, not some complicated multi-finering exhibitions are necessary.. I mean, singing is a single note at a time thing.
Yeah, arranger keyboard makes our fingers lazy in this regard and doesn't really push us to learn more advanced arpeggios or whatever. I guess that's why I bought an arranger: just to be able to play some nice popular melodies, without much skill needed from the past.
Because let's face it... if I start playing the keyboard at age of 40, 50+, then I'm already too late to become a skilled piano player -no matter how much I practice 

Bogdan

[georges]

This time I am sending this message to particularly congratulate 2 people.
It is: BODGANH, and, MIKF
As for you, BODGAN, I think you are a little humble about your knowledge. Indeed I don't know what level you have on your keyboard, but in theory you are certainly not a beginner.
I read your reviews and messages a few times. They are often long and skill-filled. I even started a topic on tuning pianos last year and you responded to me with several opinions on the settings and much else. As you say, your hands are not very agile on the keyboard but your brain still has good capacity.

As for you, MIKF, all things considered, I realize upon re-reading that we are more or less in agreement on no subjects.
I wouldn't allow myself to say what the level of all the members of this forum is, because I don't know enough.
But it's like everywhere there are experienced members and others who are less experienced. To tell you how I thought about starting this discussion, it's a bit like the dictionary.
A dictionary exists and it is opened millions of times every morning. It is opened by scholars, geniuses, graduates, the less qualified by even the ignorant.
But it is there, it is no one's property and everyone can use it as they want. Well I think the forum is the same thing. It's a form, a kind; it's a place, which we can read or not read, by different members on a musical level as you say.
What was important for me was that I received opinions but not necessarily solutions, but that was enough to continue doing what I wanted.

So in conclusion we somewhat agree
Finally, what I'm going to say is similar to your thoughts. Once I called Yamaha Europe because I was looking for a book, a magazine, a tutorial that would allow me to go into the fine adjustments of the sounds to make something special and very beautiful.
Yamaha answered me: Sir, we have millions of arranger keyboard buyers around the world. There is only 1% of our customers who ask us this type of question. We are here to sell to customers who want to have fun without the hassle.
"Se prendre la tête" is a French expression but I don't know how to translate it.
Otherwise they told me don't "bother" us with your questions, that's not the goal of our commercial policy.
Tank you everyone - Georges

if anyone can tell me how to translate; " se prendre la tête"

[Amwilburn]

that literally translates to bringing your own head (which makes no sense to us) but amazingly Google /Bing translate both took the entire phrased as "getting in the swing of things" which is very close to "getting into the swing of things"!

I'm definitely not familiar with that phrasing, but then I only had high school French

Mark

[mikf]

Mark - I think we have a similar phrase in Scotland 'you're doing my head in' which is not literal and can have slightly different connotations depending on context, but typically means stop hassling me with unanswerable questions. Not sure but think the French phrase may be similar.
Mike

[Amwilburn]

You're right, Google and Bing translated the phrase both spat out "getting in the swing of things"; but I found another translation which was "Doing ones head in". Which certainly seems to have more context with the actual words in the phrase.

And yeah, "You're doing my head in" is a phrase here too, m8! I think it means the same; basically you're asking me questions that are giving me a headache.

Mark

[mikf]

Yeah, Mark, I think that's about right. Not surprising some Scottish idiom has made it to Canada.
And on another small point, the forum is not like a dictionary, you don't get tips or advice from a dictionary, just data. Georges seems very trusting of our advice, but I think if I ask about brain surgery on an open forum I would want to know if it is coming from a neurosurgeon or a baker! 
Mike

[Duffy]

Hello everyone.
I'm asking a somewhat original question, but I hope I get some answers. Since I have a Genos, and he's a fantastic arranger, I often do orchestral type compositions. This means that my creations are very powerful in sound and I occupy all possible channels, right, left, pad etc.
they are often symphonic in form.
so I would like to know if there is a tutorial, a video, or comments that allow me to know:
what instruments can be programmed together to have a beautiful overall orchestral output?
In fact I would like to avoid making mistakes with instrument connections that don't sound good together.
Is there a table or tables that allow you to see beautiful instrument associations?
for example: the memory registers created by Yamaha present a beautiful set of sounds

I thank you friends

My advice would be to listen to Steve Solitaire on You Tube who's a master at this type of thing.
Steve also sells his sound sets but to start,  you could watch his many videos where he demonstrates the sounds he has created.
A link to just one of them here.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLb0sh1VE7E&ab_channel=SteveSolitaire
Steve creates solo sounds but also mass orchestra sounds comprising up to 8 parts which have to be heard to be believed.
Best wishes with your search.
Duffy

Steve lives in Europe I believe,  and his video's are in either Dutch or German but you can change sub-titles to English.

[EileenL]

Try using some of the ensemble voices and see how they chose instrument that work well together.

[Ronbo]

se prendre la tête"


This could mean loosely translated as

"take the lead".       

regards


Ron

[georges]

Good morning. Thank you for your explanations, for the expression
"you do not take the head".
on a specialized book on French expressions, what I found, on the translation and the spirit of this expression.

"There's no reason to get worked up here."

"A good solution to discover skiing without getting overwhelmed."

now if I tell you, what we French mean.

"don't worry too much, and don't tire your mind over such a small thing
In other words, don't spend too much time on something so simple.
That's it, we're out of technical questions about keyboards, but sometimes, it's interesting to ask other things.

thank you all Georges

[pedro_pedroc]

Hello.

Well, I don't have experience playing or composing orchestra styles/songs.
But, if I can make an advice, if I must have an orchestra composition, I'll first study what is an orchestra, what are the basis instruments of the orchestra, and for sure I'll start with at least one bass, one middle strings and one treble strings... then adding more instruments according to the song you want to compose.

What do you think about it? Maybe can be a good start.

Best regards
Pedro