Looking for Melancholy Styles

[YammyFan]

I have lots of styles  in my collection. But nearly all of them are joyous [Upbeat]and are not suited for playing sad songs [Laments] I have been looking for something  in a minor key. Sometimes I play in the key of C major and the score I am using  has E minor. and A minor chords.  Does that mean that I am playing in a minor key? Also, if I use the transpose button on my SX 900 will that transpose me into a minor key or does it just raise the pitch?

[Graham UK]

To play in a minor key you have to play minor chords....Nothing to do with the keyboards transpose.

Try one of the FreePlay Styles for playing Melancholy songs.

[BogdanH]

Graham is right, of course.

I see major and minor as two different types of chord harmony. For example:
Cmaj chord: C+E+G  --->root=C, C+4semitones=E, E+3semitones=G
Cmin chord: C+D#+G -->root=C, C+3semitones=D#, D#+4semitones=G
-as you can see, only middle note is shifted by one semitone (which can't be done with transpose). The rule root+4+3 is true for all major chords and root+3+4 for all minor chords.

I think it's very rare in popular music that the whole song would be played in minor. Usually it's in major and only certain parts are in minor (to emphasize the sadness).
Or opposite: song is in minor key, but majority is played in major chord (i.e. famous "House of the rising sun" by The Animals).

Just my 2cents,
Bogdan

[DerekA]

Just to confuse the issue, remember the key C major is also A minor .... 

[DrakeM]

If the song you are playing starts with a Minor chord and ends with a Minor chord, then the song is in Minor. It is that simple.
The style has nothing to do with it.

[DerekA]

Some styles do apparently have alternative patterns that play depending on whether the chord is major or minor.

I don't have any specific examples, this is just something I have heard is possible.

[Graham UK]

Some styles do apparently have alternative patterns that play depending on whether the chord is major or minor. ...

Korg Keyboards Styles have always provided this right back years ago on the model i3. which I owned.


Edit: Quote fixed by overover

[BogdanH]

hi DerekA,

Some styles do apparently have alternative patterns that play depending on whether the chord is major or minor.

I don't know what you mean by alternative patterns, but in general you're correct. And that's not true only for major vs minor: it is (or can be) true for every key in which we choose the style to use.
Many think that it doesn't matter in which key particular style is used. But that's not really true -especially not for song specific styles. Yes, we can play any style in any key, however it will usually only sound right in the key in which style was created.

A simple example perhaps:
Someone made a custom style for particular song and because it was the easiest for him, he decided to make it in C-key. Then he records Bass sequence (for example, C and G note), which us usually used in Root Transpose mode. That is, in C chord we hear C1 and G1 note and when we switch to G chord, we will hear G1 and D2 note. Because G1 and D2 (especially D2) is kinda high for a bass guitar, we usually limit the highest chord: we set Note Limit to F. That means, if chord is higher than F, then chord won't transpose to higher chord, but to one octave lower chord: in this case we will hear G0 and D1 notes instead. Summary: F chord will be higher than C chord, but G chord will be lower than C chord.
Now we play the song for friends who struggle to sing along and so they suggest you play the song in different key, i.e. A key. We can do that, however bass guitar will still follow F Note Limit and will not switch to lower octave at the highest chord.
And that was only bass guitar! What about various guitar or piano arpeggios? In short: we can expect that style won't sound properly (if used in some keys).
My opinion: for song specific styles, author should tell for what key the style is intended.

I hope that was informative,
Bogdan

[mikf]

Whether chords are major or minor has nothing to do with the key. Minor and major chords are normal occurrences whether you are playing in a minor or major key. For example playing in the scale of C major, the chords of D min, E min and A min all use the notes of the scale of C major, and are 'normal' chordings. Actually the chords of A maj, DMaj and E maj could be considered bigger departures because they contain notes that are NOT part of C major scale. But they still commonly occur.
In fact chords - major, minor, diminished etc etc can and do occur without changing key, and are normal. They are there to support the intended HARMONY of the composition in that key. It doesn't change the key.

But when a composition is in a minor key you have a DIFFERENT SCALE, - essentially the third note (degree) of the scale is flattened, and that is what creates the different feel. In other words the third note is only a semi-tone higher than the second note, and not a full tone as in the major scale. This difference is reflected in the key signature, and the nature of BOTH the melody and harmony.
The scale of Amin has exactly the same notes as C maj, and will have the same key signature as Cmaj, and it is called the relative minor of C. While C minor actually has the same notes and key signature as Eb major,(3 flats), so it is the relative minor of Eb major.   
But although it has the same notes, songs written in the minor key will have a different melodic and harmonic feel to songs in the relative major key, because the scale degrees are different.
BTW, changing key is called modulating, not transposing.

I know many of you shy away from what you call 'music theory', but it is important to grasp some of this very basic stuff. It's not high level. Think of it this way, there is some very complex math theory embedded in advanced math like differential calculus, that many remain happily unaware of without affecting their lives.  But everyone needs to understand very basic math theory like addition, multiplication and division just to get through life.
This stuff on keys, chords and scales is just the addition, multiplication and division of music. Everyone that plays should get some grounding on this very, very basic stuff.
BTW - There is actually only one major scale, but there are three different minor scales, called Natural, Harmonic and Melodic. One of them contains different notes (scale degrees) when ascending from when descending. They all flatten the 3rd degree of the scale, and that is the fundamental difference from major scales. But that gets into a different level of theory and useful mostly only to very advanced Classical composers or improvising jazz players. Although heavy metal guitarists frequently compose stuff in the harmonic minor.
Mike

[cyber swine]

Thanks to all for taking some serious time to explain.  You all gave me a headache but I learned something(s).

[mikf]

Some additional information, the Natural Minor is what you mostly will deal with and flattens the 3rd, 6th and 7th notes of the major scale. It is these flattened notes in the melody - and not the chords - that really provide the melancholy feel you talk about, although the harmony (chord progression) of the piece will also support the occurrence of these notes.
In the same way, many of you will already have discovered that you can get a 'blues feel' by occasional flattening of the 6th note of the scale. Sometimes this 'kinda in between' major- minor keys feel, can be achieved by playing the 6th and flattened 6th almost together. And you can do the same with the 3rd and flattened 3rd. This temporary dissonance of two adjacent notes while staying in a major key is often what gives music a blues feel. Guitar players get that similar slight dissonance and  'in between' feel by bending the string. Sax players, trombone and trumpet payers also have ways to achieve this.
Mike
 

[mikf]

I am on a bit of a mission here, because I don't like misleading information to be left out there.

To play in a minor key you have to play minor chords....Nothing to do with the keyboards transpose.

Not correct. The most common chord other than the root chord in most pieces is the dominant, and the dominant chord in a minor key is a major chord.  For example in the key of A minor that would be E7, a major chord, not E minor. As I started out by saying at the top, there are lots of minor chords in major keys, and lots of major chords occur in minor keys. The minor key is defined by the scale  - not the chords. The chords are defined by the harmony, and its not the same thing. 

If the song you are playing starts with a Minor chord and ends with a Minor chord, then the song is in Minor. It is that simple.
The style has nothing to do with it.

No, not quite that simple. It is mostly going to be true , but it is not what defines a minor key. The scale it is written in defines if it is in a minor key. Its not uncommon for a song in a major key to start on chord 2, which is a minor chord. And it could feasibly transition to a minor key at the end, and end on a minor chord. Equally, a song in the minor key could feasibly have a dominant 7 as the first chord, but still be in the minor key. Have to admit I cannot think of examples on the fly, but I am sure they will exist.

I think it's very rare in popular music that the whole song would be played in minor. Usually it's in major and only certain parts are in minor (to emphasize the sadness).
Or opposite: song is in minor key, but majority is played in major chord (i.e. famous "House of the rising sun" by The Animals).

Not true, many famous pieces are totally in minor keys  eg 'Eleanor Rigby' or 'Summertime' from Porgy and Bess, dozens of heavy metal songs etc. And the 'House of the Rising Sun' is completely in the minor key. The use of major chords does not change that. I'm repeating myself, but its important, the chords do not define the key. 

[Amwilburn]

well...

Eleanor Rigby is actually Em (Em7, Em6, Em) with CM7 thrown in, mostly back and forth, so technically not all minor chords, but you're right, the scale defines the key.

Drake's quote about starting and finishing on a minor chord is mostly true, and while not 100%, it's good enough for horseshoes and hand grenades, especially when deciding if a song is melancholy or not.

Interestingly, *most* songs that are 'minor not major' songs, start in a minor, and the rest of the chords are typically all major; for example, House of the rising sun! It's a melancholy song, but only the start is minor; the rest of the chords are major.
eg vi, IV, I, V, will still sound mostly minor, despite only have 1 minor chord and essentially being in a major scale (of course, once you introduce the major 5th of the root minor, then the above gets renumbered i, VI, III, VII, V, but of course it's *much* easier to still write it from the point of the major scale:
vi, IV, I, V, III; but anyone with music theory will clearly see those are the chords for the minor scale of the 6th.

Another common chord progression for a minor feeling song is vi, IV, V, then iii or III; again potentially only 1 minor chord in a melancholy song.

Likewise, an uplifting major feeling song? Might start on the root, the IV or the V, but the iv (6th minor) will not start a section, it will be major.
eg I, vi, IV, V.

Mark

[BogdanH]

...
Drake's quote about starting and finishing on a minor chord is mostly true, and while not 100%, it's good enough for horseshoes and hand grenades, especially when deciding if a song is melancholy or not.

-well said.

...And the 'House of the Rising Sun' is completely in the minor key. The use of major chords does not change that. I'm repeating myself, but its important, the chords do not define the key. 

I didn't say chords define the key. I said:

..song is in minor key, but majority is played in major chord.

I have almost zero knowledge about music theory and the little that I have, I learned on "on need basis" or even by coincidence at practicing. And because of that, any additional info is very welcome for me -so I don't make wrong conclusions in my way of thinking.
On the other hand, most of us here are hobby musicians and so we mostly think about music rules in general, which (as Mark said) is good enough for horseshoes and hand grenades -I like that 
One of those thinking is, that music should be in minor to be melancholy, which in my opinion, is not necessary true: it can be melancholy in any key.
All in all, nice thread.

Bogdan