SOLVED: Midi Song to Styles problem

[Fran MB]

Solution provided by Bogdan (on the messages below):

"Select that SFF1 style on your keyboard and open it with Style Creator. Select RHY2 channel and then open PARAMETER tab. There you need to change NTT to BYPASS (that's proper setting for every DrumKit!).
Apply this RHY2 setting in all variations (Fill-in, Main, etc.)"





Edited to a short version with additional information

Hello everyone,

My name is Fran.

I've started using Yamaha's "Midi song to style" program and I have a problem that I can't find a solution to.

In "easy" mode, I create a style from a MIDI file, convert it to SSF1 with the "Style Format 2 Converter" software and load it via USB into the Tyros 2.

The style works correctly, leaving aside possible tonal errors in "intros", and the assignment of "mains", etc that it does automatically.

But when I play the style on the Tyros and change chords, especially to minor, or sharp, the rhythm of the style changes time signature, non-harmonic drum beats appear, and even effects are Heard of sounds that didn't exist before in the previous chord (like applause to explain it in some way, and other strange sounds).

I rule out bad programming of the original MIDI file, as I have tried about 50 midi, from different sources, and the result is always the same.

I've thought that maybe the error occurs when changing from SSF2 to SSF1 format.

- Channel 10 is correctly asisigned as a instrument "drumkit" in the channel Rhym (1 or 2). If I change the drumkit for other perscussion sound, in the program or in the keyboard, it doesn't solve the problem.

-Channel Chd1 and Chd2 are correctly assigned to a suitable instruments.

-When I play the style in the Tyros but without the "Acomp" button pressed, the style works perfectly (but with no chords of course), and when pressing the keys that did produce that applauses, etc, now they don't sound at all.

I would like to know if anyone has had this problem or knows what the error may be and how to solve it.

In case someone is interested, can downolad on the link one of the MIDI file I have used to create the style, create a new one with the program,  and try on your keyboard.

Or also download the styles created by me (SSF1 and SFF2) in orther to test on your keyboard, and see if you have the same problem as me.

https://we.tl/t-FoCEq0k9TL

Link is active during 7 days from today 23/02/2024. After this time  I can share again if anyone is interested on.

Thank you very much in advance.

P.D.: The style is created is in Easy mode, and I have not changed any parameters, nor the wrong key of the intro (A Maj) because in my experience it does not produce any change in the final (wrong) result of the Style, to make this test.

Best regards.

                                     

[BogdanH]

Hello Fran,
I can see that you described the problem the best you could, but I'm afraid that no one will be able to help with exact solution. Main reason for that is, there's no guarantee that MidiSongToStyle will create proper style from every midi file -please see this thread.

There are a few experienced MidiSongToStyle users in this forum who could maybe help, but for that you need to provide midi file and both (SFF1 and SFF2) problematic styles that you created.

Greetings,
Bogdan

[Fran MB]

Good morning Bogdan, thank you very much for your response and for the link.

I will follow your advice and attach the corresponding files.

On the other hand, I will do a test with the Fats Domino MIDI file. Starting from a correct MIDI base, I can create a Style and see if then It is correct created.

I take this opportunity to thank you for your videos on YouTube.

Best regards.

[Rick D.]

Fran,

Midi to Style works well some of the time, not all the time. It all depends on the MIDI file you start with. It has to be made properly and not be too complex for the software to work. I have had some that came out great and some that were lousy.

Rick D.

[DrakeM]

Good to know. I must have down loaded a messed up midi. The program could not find the drums. They were there, I just had to revoice the track with the keyboard. It was to hard to separate the sections of the song out I needed without hearing the drums and quit.

I started converting the new Genos 2 styles and when I finish them, I'll take up learning the Midi to Style program again with a different midi file. 

Drake 

[pjd]

I had a similar experience as Drake. Tried feeding very simple MIDI patterns into the MIDI song to style converter and everything just seemed to get scrambled. The MIDI song was simple enough that a monkey (me) could make a style from it.

I've given up on the MIDI Song to Style converter for the time being. I don't have time to second guess this thing...

All the best -- pj

[Fran MB]

Good afternoon again.

I've tried to attach the midi file and the styles created, but the system has not allowed me to attach MIDI and .sty files.

If someone is interested on make a test, I could share them by mail, or if someone knows other way to share the files in this forum, please tell me.

Thanks.

Best regards.


Edit: Email address removed by overover.
Please do not post your email address publicly. Members can see your email by calling up your forum profile.

[overover]

Good afternoon again.

I've tried to attach the midi file and the styles created, but the system has not allowed me to attach MIDI and .sty files.

If someone is interested on make a test, I could share them by mail, or if someone knows other way to share the files in this forum, please tell me.

My email address is *****

Thanks.

Best regards.

Hi Fran MB,

If you would like to make styles or MIDI files you have created available here, you can upload the files to an online file hosting service such as box.com or Dropbox and post the corresponding download links here. Please note that the downloads must be accessible without logging in/registering with the relevant online service.


Best regards,
Chris

[Fran MB]

Thank your very much Overover for your response about sharing files and for the fact about not show the mail adress, I didn' t know about.

Regards.

[Gleston]

Fran
I use the midi to style JOSOSOFT program for a long time. And sometimes has the same kind of result.

My experience tells me that use the "easy" or "automatic" mode we don´t get the best result.

Try the hard way , and try to change the parameters of the software by yourself.

Listen to the song, take note of the instruments you want, the tracks you need to change, the lenght of the bars for each part, what track will respond to chords , what track will not, etc. for a better result.

[Fran MB]

Hi Gleston,

Thaks for your response.

I have tried lots of times in mode edit to change parameters, and I can see that the instruments, channels are correctly assigned, but always starting from the "easy" mode.

So, I will try to start the project completely from the edit mode, and selecting single parts of the song, or only a Main section, etc.

Curious that sometimes with Jososoft software you have observed the same problem as me (you mean when you change chords, I understand).

I did a single test with that program, creating a simple Main, and in this particular case it worked very well for me at first tiem.

Thank you for sharing your experience. Best regards.

[Fran MB]

Hi,

Related to my initial message, I send three files in the following link.

https://we.tl/t-FoCEq0k9TL

The first is one of the Midi files for which I have created styles and that gives me an error.

The other two are a the styles created from the Midi file, in the format SFF1 and SFF2.
If anyone is interested, you can try creating a style with the Midi Song To Style software and try it on your keyboard.

Or load one of the two files already created (SSF1 or SSF2).

I would be very grateful if someone does some of the tests and reports their results to me.

The style is created is in Easy mode, and I have not changed any parameters, nor the wrong key of the intro (A Maj) because in my experience it does not produce any change in the final (wrong) result of the Style.

Reminder: the error I observe is that the style works correctly, except when changing chords, especially sharps/flats (altered rhythm and applause sounds, etc.).

Thank you so much.

P.D.: The link Will be avaiable during seve days, so if someone is interested on make the test after one week, I can share again.

[BogdanH]

hello Fran,
I'm just following this thread because of curiosity and I have read you first post again... According to your description, there are really strange things happening in your case: time signature changes when you change chord(??), non-existing sounds in drums appear out of nothing,...
As I have pointed out in my thread that I have mentioned (experiment), MidiSongToStyle is far from perfect, but it isn't that bad either. I mean, it can do most basic things, but that greatly depends on source midi file.

I don't know how deep is your style creation knowledge (I mean, by using Style Creator on keyboard), but without that knowledge it's almost impossible to get expected result -unless we're just lucky.
Let me explain what I mean by that.
Those who created (recorded) midi files, they didn't have some MidiToStyle creation tool in mind. For example, for a style it's expected that drums will only be in Rhy2 or Rhy1, but for midi that's not really necessary.
Or let's take my "Fats Domino experiment" as an example... I have deliberately created that midi in a way, where I knew that MidiToStyle won't be able to create a style out of it. If I would have created that midi in a bit different way, MidiTo Style would have no problem to create style properly.

You say "Channel Chd1 and Chd2 are correctly assigned to a suitable instruments". What does that mean? I ask because any instrument (not DrumKit) can be assigned to any of 11-16 channel. That is, it's not important to which channel particular instrument is assigned. Important is, how that particular channel interprets the instrument (notes) and that is defined in SFF section.
That is, it doesn't matter if guitar strumming is in channel 11 or in channel 16. Important is, that you
set Guitar mode for that channel -otherwise style will play rubbish notes. Even further: if midi is recorded with a style where Guitar mode was used for strumming, then that strumming track is totally unusable -it's impossible to properly convert that strumming back into style.
I'm just explaining that, to show the importance of proper SFF settings in each channel.

I have no idea what in your midi causes the troubles. I'm only saying that every midi can have some unexpected characteristics and that's why we can sometimes create usable style, sometimes good enough style and many times that's impossible.

PS. I just saw your post and downloaded your files.

Greetings,
Bogdan

[Fran MB]

Hello Bogdan,

Thank you again for your time.
My knowing about Style creator is still almost cero, I started on this fact few weeks ago, so I don't use correct and specific vocabulary, and maybe I don't use correctly the word "channel" in any case, besides my english is also basic.

All your explanation is very interesting.

I meant that channel (or "parámeter") Chd1 and Chd2 in the program are assiganted a piano, guitar, etc, not a "drum kit" for example, also, the Rhy 1 and Rhy 2 are "drumkit" in Ch10, not other instrument, as for example "sound effect" (apllause sound error).

For a beguinner as me, the program is perfect, all the 50 Styles I have created from different MIDI files (more or less profesional) are fantastic, except the problem of changing chord).

Yesterday I tried with your Fats Domino MIDI file. The only error was when I tried to save the Style "there is no MAIN sectiom" so I changed the intro to a Main, and the program allos to created the Style, I converted to SSF1, loaded on Tyros2, and It worked. But as a test for my problem was no definitive, as the Midi file doesn't contain channel 10 with a  "drumkit" sound instrument.

I' m sorry if I say things with no sense.
Regards.

[BogdanH]

hi Fran,
No worry, your english is perfect and your writing is well understandable 

Ok, I tried both styles on my keyboard where I only concentrated on Drums: SFF2 plays fine, but SFF1 doesn't. And because of that, I assume the problem is in your SFF2 to SFF1 converter.
Anyway, you can solve that easily in keyboard with Style Creator. I'm not familiar with Style Creator on Tyros2 and so I will give you just general guide what to do:

Select that SFF1 style on your keyboard and open it with Style Creator. Select RHY2 channel and then open PARAMETER tab. There you need to change NTT to BYPASS (that's proper setting for every DrumKit!).
Apply this RHY2 setting in all variations (Fill-in, Main, etc.)

About Time Signature... Style is showing it's 4/4, because that's default (Beat) value in MidiSongToStyle program (you can change that accordingly). However when style is running, or if you check in Style Creator (StepEdit), you can see that for MainA and MainD it's actually 3/3 -that's the length that MidiSongToStyle determined automatically for MainA and MainD -you need to change that.

Bogdan

[Fran MB]

Bogdan,

Thank you very much for your quick response.

I Will try to follow your instructions this week-end as soon as possible, and Will tell the results.

In with keyboard have you test the Styles? One who read both SFF1 and SFF2? Or in two different Keyboard?

Regards!

[BogdanH]

hi Fran,
I only have one keyboard (PSR-SX700) which can play SFF1 and SFF2 styles.
As I said, MidiSongToStyle makes correct SSF settings for RHY2 (NTT=BYPASS). However the SFF2toSFF1 converter that you're using, made this setting to MELODY which is wrong if DrumKit voice is used.

Greetings from Slovenia 
Bogdan

[Jørgen]

Hi there
I have followed this discussion closely as I have been working with my midi2style software since 2002.
As many have experienced, it is a difficult task, as there are an unimaginable number of parameters that come into play; and that conversion of poorly structured MIDI files (sometimes in direct conflict with the MIDI standard) is often attempted.
It is really a difficult task to develop a program that is partly easy to use and partly takes into account the (lack of) quality of the input material.
So therefore one should not expect that conversion always succeeds with good results. And when it doesn't work with my software program, it comforts me now (said without any form of sarcasm) that it doesn't always work with Yamaha's program either.

Regards from Denmark
Jørgen

[Gleston]

Jorgen

Don´t get me worng.. I love all of your software, and use a lot for my personal pleasure.


Fran
I´m going to test your files in my PSR S970 .  LAter i´ll tell you what happened.

[BogdanH]

hi Jørgen,

You're absolutely right: it's practically impossible to make perfect midi->style converter, because it's impossible to predict every midi content. Of course one can make various option/tools available (which can the be used "in this case" or "in that case"), but the more of them you make, the more complicated (to use) the program becomes.
But we all know how it is... what everyone wish is a single click solution

Greetings,
Bogdan

[Fran MB]

Hello Jørgen,

I thank you your attention on this topic I started, and of course I thank you for all your work and software that you share in Jososoft.

As I said in my first post, I did a short test using your software "Midi2style" (not the Yamaha one) with one of the same MIDI files (that I have used on the Yamaha software, that produced a erratic sytyle after convertingo to SFF1). So, the sytle created with your "Midi2style" software, sounded perfect in SSF1 format on my keyboard.

I can tell that I was able to create the style (only one Intro and one Main, very basic) from a MIDI file I downloaded from internet (that I do't konw if it is well created) with your software, reading quickly only part of the instructions on your website. That means that the program is fantastic, gives an excellent result and can also be used by a person with no knowledge of music, MIDI, style making, etc. like me. But I'm not yet ready to be able to use the program quickly and with confidence of what I'm doing at all times, due to my lack of knowledge.

Fran

[Fran MB]

Hi again Bogdan,

Thank you very much for your help.

You've found the solution to my problem!, which I've been stuck with for a long time and didn't know what to do.

I've made the change on the NTT you told me and the style sounds perfect.

I haven't changed the 3/4 time signature to 4/4 in the A and D sections, because in my editor it shows in all sections A, B, C, and D in 4/4.

The only difference I notice is that precisely both sections A and D you say are in 3/4, on the BASIC TAB MENU, show in addition to Tempo: 70, Beat: 4/4, Pattern length:3, and sections C y B the Pattern lenght is 4.

In any case, just having changed the NTT, for me my problem is already solved.

Thank you very much again, and I hope your solution can help other users with the same problem.

Greetings from Spain.

Fran.

[BogdanH]

hi Fran,
I'm glad that I could help and thank you for confirming that it works now.

You're right about Time Signature -my brain wasn't in sync with my fingers when I wrote that  Yes, Time Signature is correct 4/4. The only confusion was, that A and D have different pattern length than B and D.

We all learn something in such discussion. That's also the reason why I many times add comments -in hope to explain how and why stuff works.

Greetings,
Bogdan

[Fran MB]

Hello, Bogdan,
Thank you very much again.

Confirming that it works is the least I can do to thank you for your attention.

So would it also be necessary (to further refine the style) to change the Pattern Length in A and B from 3 to 4, to equalize all the sections?

Greetings!

Fran

[Jørgen]

Hi Bogdan

...
But we all know how it is... what everyone wish is a single click solution
...

Just keep dreaming. This will never happen...
Jørgen

[Jørgen]

Hello Fran

Hello Jørgen,

I thank you your attention on this topic I started, and of course I thank you for all your work and software that you share in Jososoft.

As I said in my first post, I did a short test using your software "Midi2style" (not the Yamaha one) with one of the same MIDI files (that I have used on the Yamaha software, that produced a erratic sytyle after convertingo to SFF1). So, the sytle created with your "Midi2style" software, sounded perfect in SSF1 format on my keyboard.

I can tell that I was able to create the style (only one Intro and one Main, very basic) from a MIDI file I downloaded from internet (that I do't konw if it is well created) with your software, reading quickly only part of the instructions on your website. That means that the program is fantastic, gives an excellent result and can also be used by a person with no knowledge of music, MIDI, style making, etc. like me. But I'm not yet ready to be able to use the program quickly and with confidence of what I'm doing at all times, due to my lack of knowledge.

Fran

Very, very glad (and proud) for being able to help you in this issue.

And very glad for your response in this thread.

It has taken me 22 years to refine the midi2style software.

Some years ago I contacted Yamaha Development Department for discussion about some form of cooperation. They were not interested...
As Yamaha has more muscles than little me, maybe they will have a better software in 5 years. Maybe? 

Regards
Jørgen

[BogdanH]

hi Fran,
There's no rule saying that all variations must have the same pattern length -it depends on song that you're playing.
Usually pattern length (=number of bars) changes when a song has a "turn" (I don't know proper term for that).
For example, listen to this song and pay attention how rhythm pattern changes at 1:24.
Music is a complex thing and software at this stage has absolutely no clue about it. Software is just trying to find some logic in series of notes.
In your midi example you can see (in Edit mode), that variation A is found after all other variations, which simply can't be right: first found variation (B) should be A.
Next.. according to it's logic, software determined that variation a has three bars -but that's not necessary true. And that's why there's an option to change pattern length as needed -because only human brain can determine that (by listening the music).
Maybe an interesting question for some... how do we know if variation has wrong pattern length? But that's probably the topic for another thread... 

Bogdan

[Fran MB]

Hi Bogdan,

Excellent answer to my question.

Fran

[Fran MB]

Hi Jørgen,

I am glad that you liked my comment, I think it is necessary to recognize and thank all that work you have been doing over so many years.

I think Yamaha missed a great opportunity to collaborate with you.

I would like to thank you for creating the software "Style Format 2 Converter" (SFF2 to  SFF1 format converter). From the first moment I was surprised that exist such a specific and useful tool that could do such a specific job, and so quickly!, and in this case it was "only with a click"!. And above all, that someone had been able to create it, and if he had cared to share it. I think Yamaha does not have any program that does that conversion function. I only talk about these two programs because they are the only ones I have tried.

I am glad to have had the opportunity to "talk" with you in this forum.

Best regards!

Fran

[BogdanH]

I would like to point out something... to show the appreciation for Jørgen's work.

I'm a bit of programmer myself and I know the obstacles when we're dealing with midi/style files. I never tried SFF2toSFF1 converter simply because I don't need it -but some do.
But we must be aware, that there's no guarantee that SFF2 to SFF1 conversion will always be 100% accurate. That doesn't mean that software is poorly made. The thing is, SFF2 has some options which SFF1 doesn't have and so it's simply impossible to convert these options into SFF1 (for example, it's impossible to translate Guitar mode correctly in SFF1).

Just my 2c worth,
Bogdan