Has Genos2 Bubble Burst

[Bill]

Hi all

We were all eagerly awaiting the arrival of the Genos 2 and now have opportunity to explore it's capabilities.  There is no doubt it does sound great, however Yamaha did miss the opportunity in the 6 year development to correct many of the existing shortcomings. Thankfully though there does not seem to be too many actual bugs reported so far. HOWEVER the excitement bubble does seen to have burst.  All forums appear to have gone quite quiet again so soon after the release. 

What do you think and why do you think that is.

Regards
Bill

[ton37]

My point of view: operation as usual, so few problems for those who already had a Yamaha. Usage questions usually come from those who come into contact with a Yamaha model for the first time or (little used) functions that they want to explore or deepen. The 'new' is gone, but the fun of playing with it... certainly no less: still in the 'it sounds so fantastic-bubble'!

[Divemaster]

Hi all

We all eagerly awaiting the arrival of the Genos 2 and have change to explore it's capabilities now.  There is no doubt it does sound great, Yamaha did miss the opportunity in the 6 year development. Thankfully though there does not seem to be too many actual bugs reported so far. HOWEVER the excitement bubble does seen to have burst.  All forums appear to have gone quite quiet again so soon after the release. 

What do you think and why do you think that is.

Regards
Bill

Hi Bill

I reckon now the original bubble has burst, hopefully those who bought the G2 are playing it.. 😂

Keith

[EileenL]

I think people are now used to how most Yamaha keyboards work and this is a good thing and Yamaha do not make it difficult to go from one keyboard to another. Hence we are seeing less questions on how to do things that always filled forums in the past. Many are still waiting for there Genos2 to arrive as sales have been very high and new stock is being held up by shipping difficulties that we have all been reading about. My friend in Australia is having to wait until March for hers as she missed out on the first shipment.
  It certainly is a great keyboard with its Style Dynamic control and the new reverb.

[BogdanH]

...
Many are still waiting for there Genos2 to arrive as sales have been very high...

-that's interesting... Because here in Europe it's available all the time and even price has dropped from initial 5100€ to 4500€.

But yes, as has been mentioned, Genos1 and Genos2 are quite similar and so it was to be expected that (over)excitement will settle after a short time -it's a nice keyboard and that's it 

Bogdan

[Graham UK]

Bill. Having worked in Manufacture / Sales. There will always be a sales surge on a new product.
When we had a new product, first the costings were done to obtain our required profit margin.
This was our bottom line selling price.
Depending how well a brand is thought of and sells dictates how much we thought a customer would be willing to pay.
This can be well above the required profit margin.

A higher set retail price if sales are not as good as forecast does leave the option to reduce selling price and still be within the manufacture required profits.

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

I can tell you that Genos 2 is  nothing like Genos 1
Genos 2 is what i expect a Keyboard today to sound like.
All you have to do is put your imagination into it and delve deep.
Yes i do have a couple of thing s need to be answered , but other than that you will not get better at the price

[andyg]

Graham has it spot on - at least for the UK! Same experiences for me. Very interesting setting an initial retail price for the dealers to work with, based on the import costs, taxes etc. Everyone has to make a living but you want to price as keen as you can. Occasionally dealers asked to increase the price having seen a prototype as they thought it would still sell well, and they'd have that cushion to lower the price after the initial 'bubble' of sales had ended. They were inevitably correct! One organ would have been £3999 - under that psychological £4000 mark. But we were convinced enough to pitch it at £4295, and it became one of our best sellers (maybe just something to do with me being one of the designers)! We could have made it £4495 and it would have done as well.

But do remember that this was back in the days when dealers' margins were decent, not the very slim ones they have to work on now. And buyers are looking for ever better prices, of course. Now more than ever!

Same with many products. I can remember paying over the odds to get my hands on a Canon A1 camera shortly after it was launched. If I'd waited a few months I'd have paid rather less but I was happy to be an 'early adopter' as we were called.

[Amwilburn]

Hi all

We all eagerly awaiting the arrival of the Genos 2 and have change to explore it's capabilities now.  There is no doubt it does sound great, Yamaha did miss the opportunity in the 6 year development. Thankfully though there does not seem to be too many actual bugs reported so far. HOWEVER the excitement bubble does seen to have burst.  All forums appear to have gone quite quiet again so soon after the release. 

What do you think and why do you think that is.

Regards
Bill

There may be tons of stock in Europe, but right up until yesterday (when we finally got more stock in) we were sold out pretty much since the start of January.

*However*,  when the Genos arrived, there were tons of song specific demos to show it off. Now that the G2 is here, there are a bunch of "here are the new styles" demos, but as someone else pointed out, nobody plays the entire song; and in most cases it's just improve on top of the style (The Desert Adventure style in particular, nobody seems to know what specific song on the Dune soundtrack to play using this style)

But additionally, they seem to demo only the new piano sounds. PSR Tutorial Forum users like soundphase discovered surprising differences in orchestral first violin
https://www.psrtutorial.com/forum/index.php/topic,68010.msg515459.html#msg515459

And I pointed out many new drum kits, 4 orchestral drum kits being the highlight for me. It's kind of crazy that the revo drums, which only were on G1, CVP809/909? Have now all been relegated to the Legacy folder (except for a new Revo EDM kit on G2)

but most people are too busy enjoying the new styles to discover the new sounds

I *only* just discovered there are now Super Articulation 2 Basses (4 of them)! And wow they sound good. But how would I put that into a demo?? Unless I make a video just showing the new sounds. And there's a new S.Art ElecJazzslap bass that will give many users flashbacks of the Seinfeld /Night Court themes, a DX7 bass straight out of Kenny Loggin's "Danger Zone"

I mean, to show off the slap bass, I'd want to use something like Axel F as the demo song, but Axel F itself used a synth bass, not a slap bass, so I'm left wondering what song to create a demo of t show off the slap bass (maybe Duck Tales?). And then I wander off and play styles for another hour and completely forget what I was trying to find in the first place 


So it's hard to keep the 'hype bubble' going (it always is), especially when there aren't many complete song demos on Genos 2. So far I've only found:

Ennio Morricone's "The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly" theme.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0oux-zZxwtU

Crocket's Theme
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSMxSQp4FQM

And frankly with the Genos2 playlist? Most people don't need youtube videos to see what their new instrument is capable of.
i.e. I think most are playing and enjoying; I don't see many trying to really demo (save the 2 above, and a Careless Whisper tutorial).
And that includes my lazy butt. I'm having too much fun playing!!

Mark

[Oxford1035]

And that includes my lazy butt.

Do you have the dots for it? 🤣

[BogdanH]

Good post Mark!
About the demos that have been shown at Genos2 introduction... I only saw few of them and it was easy to recognize the pattern: nice exhibitions, but nothing specific. The Desert Adventure is a good example of that. I wonder in what occasion someone would play such music? It might be interesting as Youtube content or playing alone in a room, but here it pretty much ends.
You have mentioned that Genos2 has some good new bass voices, but the problem is "how would I put that into a demo?". I think the answer is simple: to play a normal song, which (we expect) would sound more realistic because of newly introduced bass voice(s) -if that can't be done, then what's the point of voice being good?
What I'm saying is, at introducing, Yamaha has missed the opportunity to show the best side of the new model keyboard. They should demo a music that we enjoy and are familiar with -because only in this case we are able to recognize the advantage of new voices.

Just my opinion,
Bogdan

[pjd]

I *only* just discovered there are now Super Articulation 2 Basses (4 of them)! And wow they sound good. But how would I put that into a demo?? Unless I make a video just showing the new sounds. And there's a new S.Art ElecJazzslap bass that will give many users flashbacks of the Seinfeld /Night Court themes, a DX7 bass straight out of Kenny Loggin's "Danger Zone"

Hi Mark --

Thanks for mentioning the new bass instruments. I think they are a big improvement over the G1. Montage M didn't get these...

It's all about the bass -- pj 

[Flemming]

Did the bubble burst? Hmm - depends on who you are, and what expectations you had on beforehand. The hipe was enormous, YAMAHA is an expert in that. Especially here on PSR- T. F. :-)

Personally I'm 50% glad and 50% disappointed. The sound and styles really got a big brush up, and it is way over G1 on a good PA in front of an audience. No doubt.

But I expected more! We waited 6 years. It is like Yamaha decided that the same motherboard, the same memory, the same system should produce a better keyboard - no matter what. And it left no space or power for upgrading other than sounds and styles. The organs havn't changed since Tyros5 10 years ago, and even then, Korg and Ketron made much better organs and Leslie-effect than Yamaha! Strings are getting worse for every new model. Microphone, vocalist, YEM and a lot of other things didn't get an upgrade, and is has been 6 years since G1. YEM is still a catastrophic! You can't do nothing with internal sounds, it is much more limited than Tyros4 and previous models.

Look at the price. If you put on inflation we didn't pay more fore G2, than we payed for G1. I would gladly have payed 1k og 2k euros more for an upgrade model. Maybe both a Genos2 and a Genos2 PRO with more power, where they put organs from YC-seria and better possibilities for manipulating sounds (from Montage?) in YEM fx.

G2 is a great keyboard, but you don't get 5 stars from me - I would say 3 stars :-)

All the best
Flemming

[Amwilburn]

Hi Mark --

Thanks for mentioning the new bass instruments. I think they are a big improvement over the G1. Montage M didn't get these...

It's all about the bass -- pj 

Yeah, I literally spent an hour just playing famous basslines on them (Seinfeld, Night Court, several from Michael Jackson) because they were *so* good. But I didn't see a peep mentioned on any of the promos. S.Art 2 on a bass?! You're right Bogdan, what's the point if there's no styles that showcase it (and if there are, tell us which ones!) or demo songs to really show them off.

Anybody who likes funk music *ahem* will *love* these basses!!

Flemming: No we didn't pay more for G2 than G1, correct. We were all definitely hoping for something *more* -- in my case, even though SSS isn't a deal breaker, because Yamaha has the *only* OS with sequenceable registrations, I can't go anywhere else. But that doesn't mean I don't want SSS.
And I also wanted more sample flash ram. So does it tick all boxes? Absolutely not.

But like the T5 before (which we all though at launch was barely an improvement on the T4), time will tell:
going from T4 to T5:
-Ensemble mode didn't add *that* much for practical purposes... I've still only found 2 uses for it, both John Williams songs
-Organ world was *great*. Glad they added them into G1 and G2. But where's are YC rotary sim??
-YEM ended up being the game changer, but we didn't know for over a year until the PSRs970 series arrived; and all of a sudden the possibilities with T5 opened up as well.

The point I'm making above is we're still discovering all these little details that weren't promoted, but are a definite improvement. But the only real game changer at the moment is how much better (more natural) everything *sounds*. Which ironically, we didn't ask for because we didn't know it was possible! The real G2 game changer may also reveal itself when the next PSRsx series finally arrives (and now that G2 has arrived, they will as well)

But as pjd correctly pointed out: it's always a gradual evolution of incremental changes with them.

Mark

[ton37]

Well said @Mark. Any 'disappointments' are usually a result of 'expectations'. And of course you will find the 'most disappointments' among Genos(1) owners.  Perhaps people have been carried away by all the expectations, wish lists, etc., etc. Although people forget that (exceptionally) there has been a major 2.13 update ; maybe as a sweetener for the long wait? I am sure that many people do not yet know (and appreciate?) the full potential of the Genos 2. The strongest asset, as you already indicated, is the beautiful sound of the already great and very flexible quality keyboard...  .

[soundphase]

Strings are getting worse for every new model.

Disagree.

I succeeded in having very good symphonic strings sound on G2 with the original lushstrings voice. I need to add 3band equalization, to add filters, to limit velocities (voice edit) and the resulting volume is globally low.

Nevertheless I'm fully satisfied.

Strings sounds are difficult to reproduce as there are a lot of ways to play violin. And in an orchestra there could be very different combinations simultaneously.

[Flemming]

Disagree.

I succeeded in having very good symphonic strings sound on G2 with the original lushstrings voice. I need to add 3band equalization, to add filters, to limit velocities (voice edit) and the resulting volume is globally low.

Nevertheless I'm fully satisfied.

Strings sounds are difficult to reproduce as there are a lot of ways to play violin. And in an orchestra there could be very different combinations simultaneously.

We can never discuss taste of course :-) But I find nice string for playing slow music, but not for fast musik. Luckily we have legacy, and most of my strings come from there. So I actually don't have problems with it. I just find it wierd that the remove the strings that I love the most - maybe it's me being wierd :-)
/Flemming

[soundphase]

We can never discuss taste of course :-) But I find nice string for playing slow music, but not for fast musik. Luckily we have legacy, and most of my strings come from there. So I actually don't have problems with it. I just find it wierd that the remove the strings that I love the most - maybe it's me being wierd :-)
/Flemming

I look for Ennio Morricone's large slow symphonic strings currently for Deborah's theme (mainly working on lushstrings sound). I didn't work on fast strings.
Perhaps we talk about the same finally :-)

[lilryu]

What 4 bass instruments are you referring to?

There may be tons of stock in Europe, but right up until yesterday (when we finally got more stock in) we were sold out pretty much since the start of January.

*However*,  when the Genos arrived, there were tons of song specific demos to show it off. Now that the G2 is here, there are a bunch of "here are the new styles" demos, but as someone else pointed out, nobody plays the entire song; and in most cases it's just improve on top of the style (The Desert Adventure style in particular, nobody seems to know what specific song on the Dune soundtrack to play using this style)

But additionally, they seem to demo only the new piano sounds. PSR Tutorial Forum users like soundphase discovered surprising differences in orchestral first violin
https://www.psrtutorial.com/forum/index.php/topic,68010.msg515459.html#msg515459

And I pointed out many new drum kits, 4 orchestral drum kits being the highlight for me. It's kind of crazy that the revo drums, which only were on G1, CVP809/909? Have now all been relegated to the Legacy folder (except for a new Revo EDM kit on G2)

but most people are too busy enjoying the new styles to discover the new sounds

I *only* just discovered there are now Super Articulation 2 Basses (4 of them)! And wow they sound good. But how would I put that into a demo?? Unless I make a video just showing the new sounds. And there's a new S.Art ElecJazzslap bass that will give many users flashbacks of the Seinfeld /Night Court themes, a DX7 bass straight out of Kenny Loggin's "Danger Zone"

I mean, to show off the slap bass, I'd want to use something like Axel F as the demo song, but Axel F itself used a synth bass, not a slap bass, so I'm left wondering what song to create a demo of t show off the slap bass (maybe Duck Tales?). And then I wander off and play styles for another hour and completely forget what I was trying to find in the first place 


So it's hard to keep the 'hype bubble' going (it always is), especially when there aren't many complete song demos on Genos 2. So far I've only found:

Ennio Morricone's "The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly" theme.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0oux-zZxwtU

Crocket's Theme
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSMxSQp4FQM

And frankly with the Genos2 playlist? Most people don't need youtube videos to see what their new instrument is capable of.
i.e. I think most are playing and enjoying; I don't see many trying to really demo (save the 2 above, and a Careless Whisper tutorial).
And that includes my lazy butt. I'm having too much fun playing!!

Mark

[pjd]

What 4 bass instruments are you referring to?

Check the list of Genos2 Mega Voices to get clues:

    Basic                   Variants           Category
    ----------------------  -----------------  ----------
    ElJazzFinger            OpenHmr, ...       Bass
    ElJazzPick              Open, ...
    VlBassPick              OpenHmr, ...
    AcJazzOpen              Extended1, ...
    RBillyBass              FingerOpen, ...
    MonoUprightBass

Super Articulation bass voices are based on these sampled instruments. They are new to Genos2.

All the best -- pj

https://sandsoftwaresound.net/yamaha-genos2-new-voices/

[Amwilburn]

Thanks Paul! Yes, I should've mentioned if they have new s.Art and s.Art 2 basses, obviously there's a few new mega voice basses as well!

The 4 new S.Art 2 basses are

E.BassRock1
E.BassRock2
E.BassBallad
E.BassJazz

ElecJazzSlap is one of the new S.Art basses that really slaps!

Mark

[cyber swine]

Have to say that I had expectations for the Genos 2 that were not met and do not feel inclined to apologize for that.  Furthermore with all the discussion over strings I have yet to read that anyone has found adequate *solo* violin, cello or acoustic guitar sounds on G2.  I have not had the opportunity to try a 2 yet so perhaps they are as good as the Korg solo voices and nobody mentioned it yet. I do enjoy my Genos tremendously but do not feel any need to downplay, apologize for or minimize the weaker aspects of it.  It is simply what it is.

[Amwilburn]

If your expectations were not met, then no you have nothing to apologize for. We respect each other's comments and explanations here!

But if you were to "dump" on an instrument other people love because you didn't like it, don't expect people who bought it respect comments like that (and I don't mean you personally, I mean anyone that complains, just to complain)

[jimlaing]

There was mention of a 2.14 update (I think for Genos 1); I don't see this anywhere on Yamaha's sites; they have up to 2.13.   [from a previous entry on this thread, "...Although people forget that (exceptionally) there has been a major 2.14 update"

Can anyone point us to this major 2.14 update?
Thanks!  -Jim

[soundphase]

Have to say that I had expectations for the Genos 2 that were not met and do not feel inclined to apologize for that.  Furthermore with all the discussion over strings I have yet to read that anyone has found adequate *solo* violin, cello or acoustic guitar sounds on G2.  I have not had the opportunity to try a 2 yet so perhaps they are as good as the Korg solo voices and nobody mentioned it yet. I do enjoy my Genos tremendously but do not feel any need to downplay, apologize for or minimize the weaker aspects of it.  It is simply what it is.

I'm really satisfied with acoustic guitar, solo violin and cello sounds on Genos 2.
It's sure that reverb choice is now very very important to get astonishing results.

I also changed the orientation of my old speakers, tightened a few screws, and I added a subwoofer. I prefer the sound I now get with my configuration than what I had with Genos 1.

Nevertheless I don't play violin, cello or acoustic guitar. I'm not a violin, cello or guitar player.

So there are always differences with real analogic instruments.

Perhaps with AI it will be possible to do better.

[Amwilburn]

We can never discuss taste of course :-) But I find nice string for playing slow music, but not for fast musik. Luckily we have legacy, and most of my strings come from there. So I actually don't have problems with it. I just find it wierd that the remove the strings that I love the most - maybe it's me being wierd :-)
/Flemming

Yes, there was a *huge* improvement in strings going from T5 to G1, and not much from G1 to G2. The improvements are elsewhere (Drums, Brass, Reverb, Basses, Pianos, woodwinds, more to be discovered). But *all* the original G1 strings are still in the G2 as well...? So how could the strings have gotten worse?

Mark