Arranger keyboards after the old folks are gone

[konaboy32]

don't mean to be morbid or disrespectful but what is the market for arranger keyboards when us old folks are gone?

is the Genos2 the last traditional arranger as we know it?

a new type of arranger is needed to attract the younger generation, with ballroom, entertainer and schlager styles replaced with modern DJ and EDM styles, with focus on beat making, live looping, sampling, synthesis and pattern based clip recording.

some kind of cross between a drum machine, groovebox, workstation synth, daw and arranger.

otherwise I see no long-term future for arranger keyboards...?

[BogdanH]

It has been mentioned before: there's unlimited supply of older people 

Bogdan

[Divemaster]

The biggest shock young people get in life, is thinking that they will never grow old.

I remember 2023 as though it was only last year!! 

[konaboy32]

of course, we all grow old.

when the young generation reach old age, they will buy arrangers in order to play the same music as the old folks play today.

that's what you're saying?

[BogdanH]

Yes.
Maybe not exactly the same music we play (and like). But truth is, if some song/music is good, then it doesn't matter how old it is.

Bogdan

[EileenL]

Well my Grand Daughters who are in there twenties like the same type of music I do and love songs from the shows. I think there will always be keyboards needed for people who want to learn to play nice music for them selves.

[Lefty]

a new type of arranger is needed to attract the younger generation, with ballroom, entertainer and schlager styles replaced with modern DJ and EDM styles, with focus on beat making, live looping, sampling, synthesis and pattern based clip recording.

some kind of cross between a drum machine, groovebox, workstation synth, daw and arranger.

I'm sure the OP means the current crop of old people.  Younger folks have different musical tastes, and different ways of making music.  When those younger folks are in our age group, they won't want our styles, and probably not our methods.  Arranger keyboards will have to change with the times or die.

As large as the 'older' demographic group is, there will be businesses who will fill the need.  It may not be all or any of the current manufacturers, and they probably won't call them arrangers.

It's like SUV's.  We had those when I was a kid.  Only we called them 'Station Wagons'. 

Happy New Year!
  Craig

[BogdanH]

Yes Eileen, good music is timeless.
Of course as times change, we tend to adapt instruments and/or rhythm of older music to our taste... but that just proves, that original song is good and will be remembered.
For example, the music "Recuerdos de la Alhambra" composed by Francisco Tárrega in year 1899:
1899: Original interpretation
1984: Mike Oldfield interpretation
2023: my interpretation 

@Lefty
Who would imagine that someone would today play 100+ years old music? Still, it happens -and will continue to happen with next generation.

Bogdan

[mikf]

Physical ability is not the only thing that changes with age ...taste and preferences also change, and that includes musical taste. I can pretty well guarantee that the 70 year olds of the future will not be playing hip hop when they get to old age, they will be playing Andrew Lloyd Webber, Jerome Kern, Cole Porter, great songs of the 50s and 60s  ...and whatever real composers come along meantime, ....same as us. My children migrated to this kind of music long before they got to their 50s, and I already see my older grandchildren in their early 30s moving this way. The last song I played on my keyboard yesterday was 'all the things you are' which was written by Jerome Kern long before I was born. People are still playing Mozart from the 18th century.
Traditional musical instruments like pianos have been around for centuries, but people still buy and play them, and they are not playing rap and hip hop on them. Yes, there will be new kinds of instruments, in fact they already exist to some extent. But it's not the older generation who buy them. Older people buy arrangers in later life, when they have time and money, often because they wish they learned to play earlier.
The arranger fits that demographic.
The original self accompaniment organs emerged more than 60 years ago, and was aimed at playing exactly the same kind of music we are playing on arrangers today. The arranger has advanced the technology, made it cheaper, more available ... but the basic reason for buying is unchanged.
Mike

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

When you think about it ,it takes quite a bit of skill to play an arranger keyboard as there is so much going on.

Most musicians play a single instrument and only have one part in a band


Old Farts Rule

[konaboy32]

I'm sure the OP means the current crop of old people.  Younger folks have different musical tastes, and different ways of making music.  When those younger folks are in our age group, they won't want our styles, and probably not our methods.  Arranger keyboards will have to change with the times or die.

As large as the 'older' demographic group is, there will be businesses who will fill the need.  It may not be all or any of the current manufacturers, and they probably won't call them arrangers.

It's like SUV's.  We had those when I was a kid.  Only we called them 'Station Wagons'. 

Happy New Year!
  Craig

thank you craig, this is what I mean and you expressed it much better than I.

And to the poster that thinks that the young musicians of today will suddenly start playing Andrew Lloyd Webber and Cole Porter when they reach old age... well thanks for the laugh!

there are no young musicians using arrangers to perform or produce modern music genres.

that's what needs to change otherwise arrangers are extinct in 10 years.

[Lefty]

@Lefty
Who would imagine that someone would today play 100+ years old music? Still, it happens -and will continue to happen with next generation.

I agree with you Bogdan.  People will always play music from many eras.  Some music will span generations.

What drives sales though, is what the mainstream of your target demographic wants to play, and the way they want to play it.

For instance, I live in a small city in Arizona.  We have a very large population of 65 to 85 year old retirees, and a very active live music scene.  When I got here 10 years ago, music groups were primarily playing 50's and 60's music.  Now, the groups are playing 60's and 70's.  Why?  Cuz it's what folks want to hear; the music from their youth. Already the 60's are tapering off slowly, and we get some requests for 80's stuff.  I hope I live long enough to get requests from the 2,000's.

Thanks,
  Craig

[mikf]

Craig, What you say is what happens. But it's still listenable music. The junk gets dropped, and the very hummable music survives, adds to older stuff and becomes the new playlist. But it's not so different, it's all real music. There is an old saying among music pros .. if you can't hum the tune it never lasts.
If it was not true then todays 50 year olds would only be playing punk. But they are not. My son in law was a big punk enthusiast in his teens, but his playlists now in his 50s are not so different from mine. Not the same songs exactly, but all listenable hummable music.
His son - my grandson - is a commercial producer of EDM and was a big time DJ in the past. His music studio is full of computers, daws , whatever and he is a whizz at manipulating it. It's a job to him. But already in his 30s his personal playlists are largely very listenable music. He tells me EDM is not made to last, it's to create a mood for now. You are twenty something, out to party, the huge speakers blast amazing rhythms and it's infectious. But it's not what you want when you are 30 something, sitting at home, with a glass of wine. And it's not what he plays when he lifts his guitar, because you really can't. You produce EDM, not play it.
The arranger may evolve into something a bit different, like the home organs evolved into arrangers, but there will always be easy play instruments, playing easy to play, easy to listen to music. There has been for over 200 years stretching back to simple accordions. The immense popularity of guitars was largely driven not by the amazing skills of a Jimmy Hendricks, but by how easily many of us could learn to strum along to simple songs.
Mike

[torben]

I would not be too worried about the imminent future of  arranger keyboards. Keyboards as such have existed for several hundred years in different forms and arrangers are just one variety of advanced electronic instruments with a keyboard attached. But what I also believe is that arrangers in the shape of Tyros, Genos etc. will change dramatically in the coming years when AI is seriously introduced in the instrument industry. The sky is the limit. Maybe some day it will be possible for a keyboard - on the fly - to make improvisations, guess/suggest new chords or instruments - or even (by its own "imagination") create new songs. Or virtually recreate 100% true human singing with words, phrasing, tone etc.

To some extent we are already pretty close to be able to do it now.

The question is of course if these instruments will leave sufficient room for the individual musicians. I really hope so. They might even be able to improve the playing skills of the player.

Fantasy is flowing ...

Torben

[mikf]

Another reason why we don't need to worry about the future of arrangers ....the market drives everything. If they disappear it's going to be because virtually no-one wants them. So if no-one wants them, why would disappearing be a concern? If people do want them then they will exist. That's how markets work. So either way, not an issue.
Mike

[Lefty]

The arranger may evolve into something a bit different, like the home organs evolved into arrangers, but there will always be easy play instruments, playing easy to play, easy to listen to music.

Mike, I agree with this completely.  As technology marches on, it will be easier and easier for solo musicians to play with accompaniment.  Digital reproductions of instruments like piano, Rhodes, Wurly's, etc. are very, very good.  I think soon, they will apply AI to arrangers.  Then we can select a group we want to play with, and they will respond to your playing like real musicians would.  No need for styles at all, in the current sense.  Just play, like with real musicians.

EXCEPT, the drummer won't drink all your beer, and the bass player won't hit on your girlfriend.

Best Regards,
   Craig

[pjd]

A new type of arranger is needed to attract the younger generation, with ballroom, entertainer and schlager styles replaced with modern DJ and EDM styles, with focus on beat making, live looping, sampling, synthesis and pattern based clip recording.

Some kind of cross between a drum machine, groovebox, workstation synth, DAW and arranger.

Yamaha SEQTRAK. Probably this NAMM 2024: https://sandsoftwaresound.net/the-other-unicorn-in-the-room/

Arrangers will morph into something else. If there is money to be made... 

I see young folk with instruments get off the school bus every day. I'm sure some of them make beats, too, and maybe, some of them might play keys (willingly or unwillingly). GASP!   

Peace in 2024 -- pj

[Michael Trigoboff]

Seen on the Internet:

"I thought getting old would take longer."

[Joe H]

don't mean to be morbid or disrespectful but what is the market for arranger keyboards when us old folks are gone?

is the Genos2 the last traditional arranger as we know it?

a new type of arranger is needed to attract the younger generation, with ballroom, entertainer and schlager styles replaced with modern DJ and EDM styles, with focus on beat making, live looping, sampling, synthesis and pattern based clip recording.

some kind of cross between a drum machine, groovebox, workstation synth, daw and arranger.

otherwise I see no long-term future for arranger keyboards...?

Yamaha is smart... it will adapt to the next generation of keyboard players. I'm sure there will a lot more EDM styles, Voices, more arpeggios and new Live Control features using pedals.  Also there are new contemporary audio playing surfaces that the young generation uses now.

Joe H

[p$manK32]

Yamaha is smart... it will adapt to the next generation of keyboard players. I'm sure there will a lot more EDM styles, Voices, more arpeggios....

Joe, This sounds like the MODX/Montage synth category to me. Yamaha would eventually need to refine that synth interface to make the arp patterns, edm rhythms  etc. a bit more user friendly to program.

Rich

[p$manK32]

I'm sure the OP means the current crop of old people.  Younger folks have different musical tastes, and different ways of making music.  When those younger folks are in our age group, they won't want our styles...

So true. I predict arrangers as we know them will be gone in 10 years or so. I think the synth workstation, with improved rythm & pattern user interface, will be the instrument of choice for those in the younger generations who are not producing music using VST's & DAW's. Or as someone said above, perhaps an "AI Arranger" that resembles something totally different from today's arrangers.

Rich

[mikf]

Not a chance...you are completely misunderstanding what drives people to learn to play a musical instrument late in life. It's not the nature of the music, it's the satisfaction of actually playing a musical instrument. People will still want that. By the time they get round to buying an arranger, they will no longer be younger people. They will be older people just like us. Arrangers will evolve, but ten years is nothing. It's more than ten years already since T4.
Mike

[andyg]

mikf is absolutely right - yet again!

People will always want to just sit down and play an instrument. That's what the vast majority of arranger owners do and so it will always be. Heck, even though the home organ (grand-daddy of the keyboard, of course) market for new instruments is all but dead, there are lots of people buying used models, or getting them for free, and just playing them.

Most of my arranger students, young and old, are not playing the latest chart material, rap, hip-hop, R&B or EDM. They're playing material from the 'Great American Songbook', and its UK equivalent, plus songs from the 50s through to the 90s, and the occasional decent song from the 00s. Music from movies, shows and musicals, classical music and so on. I had one teenager who just had to play at least one march, one big band and one Carpenters number in all of her high level keyboard exams! She still plays them to this day.

To gently correct one statement from a previous post. The first instrument with automatic accompaniment was the Hammond Model 727 'Piper Autochord', from 1970. The start of the 'arranger' and the beginning of the decline of the home organ. But if you wanted the first 'easy play' keyboard instrument, and it was marketed as such even back then, was the Hammond Model S1 Chord Organ, from 1954!

[wersiplayer]

The biggest shock young people get in life, is thinking that they will never grow old.

I remember 2023 as though it was only last year!! 

You get older, dought, but you are only so old as you feel and think. I am retired but apart of not been aible of doiing the things i did 40 years ago i stil feel young, spiriualy and mentaly, between 17 and 22, depending on the day lol.

[Joe H]

Yamaha is smart... it will adapt to the next generation of keyboard players. I'm sure there will a lot more EDM styles, Voices, more arpeggios and new Live Control features using pedals.  Also there are new contemporary audio playing surfaces that the young generation uses now.

Joe H

What I'm saying is that Yamaha will adapt to the market demands.  It is quite possible to create both EDM styles and Multi Pads.  There just not a big demand for them now... but there might be in a few years.  Easy Sounds has already produces expansion packs with synth Voices, and drum loops for EDM.

Joe H

[mikf]

Of course Yamaha they will adapt, if there is money to be made. These very modern styles are available now, and maybe as you say more in the future because very useful for people who use the arranger to produce music.
But not so useful for just sit and play live. And as andyg points out that is still the main appeal of the arranger, and the styles are therefore mainly produced to suit the kind of music that people will play, and that is somewhat timeless, its not generational.
The music that suits sit and play is typically not date stamped, ....some comes from yesteryear, some much more recent. But it all has something in common.... it sounds good in live play, the tunes are hummable and the songs are familiar.
Here's a test for younger people -- ask them to hum the latest EDM hit. Then ask them to hum a Beatles song. Bet more can do the second than the first.
Mike

[J. Larry]

Been buying Yamaha arrangers for years.  Can't recall all the model numbers.  Only play "hummable" material.  Never, once, used an EDM style, or anything remotely similar.  The American Songbook suits me just fine.  Hope Yamaha doesn't forget us seniors.

[adrianed]

You nailed it Lefty,
They will not play the same tunes as we do, just for instance Blue Moon, most will have never heard it or even like it, there are many similar age songs, another one a song I like Chapel in the Moonlight
To be honest I don't enjoy many of the newer songs, sometimes I have listened carefully to them to see what the problem is and perhaps to move forward with them but there is something that I don't savvy, I hope you understand what I am saying
Adrian

[Denn]

Music has to have a RHYTHM, a MELODY, be REPEATABLE and have good HARMONY, otherwise the noise dies.
Grabbing a $20 guitar, strumming three chords and squawking like a cut cat just does not live on.
That is why keyboards and old time "music" will live on for ever.
Sometimes the lyrics get changed but the melody lives on; such as "Aura Lee" now known as "Love Me Tender" (or well cooked  ) 
At 85 I am toying with buying a Genos2!     
Denn.

[rphillipchuk]

I have always said that you should always be able to whistle a tune.......   Ever try to "Whistle" rap or EDM ?