Same poor Leslie simulation

[MadrasGiaguari]

The main item I expected to improve with Genos2, would have been, for me, the Leslie simulation.

From all the videos and demos I've seen so far it is quite clear that Yamaha did nothing in this respect: the "rotary" effect on organ flutes (drawbars sounds) is still the same, a kind of vibrato, nothing to do with the Leslie idea.

I really can't understand why Yamaha did not make a decent Leslie simulation in a such expensive and "advanced" arranger.

Just to give an idea of what can be done, please see the attached video showing (in a very clear and honest way) the Leslie simulation on the Hammond Suzuki XK3c: another world. And we talk about an old product (Leslie simulation has been further improved on present Hammond models!).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASMlzilQ1pc

I would like to may hope in future upgrading of the firmware in this direction, but.... it is a very weak hope.....

Ciao,

Angelo

[ton37]

I'm afraid you have to accept that it is what it is. But you have great alternatives in your possession  . I must say that I'm quit satisfied with the sound the Genos(1/2) produces. I'm not a Leslie-purist  . So I wouldn't give it the qualification of 'poor'. Especially because it's not entirely fair to compare it to a 'real' Hammond. As far as the Leslie is concerned, it stands alone and will always remain so. Maybe it has something to do with 'licenses/copyrights'??

[AidanG]

Nothing to do with legal ramifications. The Yamaha YC series already has a very strong rotary simulator inside it. Indeed, even the cheap YC Reface (£250) has a quite acceptable Leslie effect. So there's really no excuse.

[Duffy]

I fully agree with you on this subject.
Having complained to Yamaha long ago about the poor quality of the Hammond / Leslie  emulation and pointed out that they already make cheap keyboards such as YC 61 with really good
emulations.  The YC series emulation were even done simply through an upgrade file, so I felt sure they would upgrade the Genos in a similar way.
To find that Genos 2 is just as bad,  is unbelievable and I never would have thought that a company such as Yamaha could be so lax.
This,  added to the sound glitch problem that other companies cured years ago, leaves Genos 2 sadly short even compared to far cheaper boards and after waiting so long to buy the new Genos,
I have to tell Yamaha that they have lost a customer who would have paid any amount for a board without these very serious drawbacks.
My Technics KN7000,  around 20 years old,  doesn't have a sound glitch problem when changing voices with memory buttons.

[Duffy]

I'm afraid you have to accept that it is what it is. But you have great alternatives in your possession  . I must say that I'm quit satisfied with the sound the Genos(1/2) produces. I'm not a Leslie-purist  . So I wouldn't give it the qualification of 'poor'. Especially because it's not entirely fair to compare it to a 'real' Hammond. As far as the Leslie is concerned, it stands alone and will always remain so. Maybe it has something to do with 'licenses/copyrights'??

Having entertained in pubs and clubs for many years on arranger keyboards and on organs of all makes,  but especially Hammond,  with and without Leslie cabinet,
I can assure you that Yamaha Genos 1 and 2 come nowhere near emulating the Hammond / Leslie sound.
As has been pointed out, the emulations on the cheap Yamaha Reface Keyboards and on the cheap ( compared to Genos ), Yamaha YC range make the Genos ones sound ridiculous.
People do not have to accept that "it is what is is".  They can do the same as me and vote with their wallet.  I can,  and probably will,  buy a Hammond type module with drawbars, 
such as Viscount Legend for under £600 and have almost the full Hammond sound.  If Yamaha didn't do it on their cheap boards,  they may have got away with it but this is taking the mick.
 

[ton37]

I respect your vision. For me it is not so interesting to have 'the best leslie sim'. There are other instruments I use more. As I wrote: I'm not  a drawbar/ leslie - purist. So allow me to accept  that 'it is what it is' and it makes me happy :  otherwise I wouldn't buy 

[StuartR]

I fully agree with you on this subject.
Having complained to Yamaha long ago about the poor quality of the Hammond / Leslie  emulation and pointed out that they already make cheap keyboards such as YC 61 with really good
emulations.  The YC series emulation were even done simply through an upgrade file, so I felt sure they would upgrade the Genos in a similar way.
To find that Genos 2 is just as bad,  is unbelievable and I never would have thought that a company such as Yamaha could be so lax.
This,  added to the sound glitch problem that other companies cured years ago, leaves Genos 2 sadly short even compared to far cheaper boards and after waiting so long to buy the new Genos,
I have to tell Yamaha that they have lost a customer who would have paid any amount for a board without these very serious drawbacks.
My Technics KN7000,  around 20 years old,  doesn't have a sound glitch problem when changing voices with memory buttons.

I'm in full agreement with your observations. I was an early YC61 owner and it took many months to convince Yamaha to fix the poor Leslie in that product which they finally did. The sound glitch you're referring to is known as the lack of seamless sound switching which is found in just about all first-tier keyboards these days except for Genos (1 and 2). To not have these two things rectified after waiting 6 years for the G2, to me, is just insulting.

But hey, they removed most of the onboard storage, so there's that. Go figure.

[MadrasGiaguari]

Dear Duffy,

you said
I can,  and probably will,  buy a Hammond type module with drawbars,

Well, I dis something like you suggest years ago, buying the expansion module Hammond Xm2 + Xmc2 drawbars controller, that works fine. It's a pity that Hammond does not produce a module anymore.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYDasMOBIkM

As you can see in the attached video, both the sounds and the Leslie emulation are more than decent. And please note that they were launched in 2006!!! Today Hammond organs have even better Leslie simulation, almost perfect.

Ciao,

Angelo

[andyg]

Even the best of sims is never going to 'move air', so will always come off second best to a real rotary speaker, not just Leslie, of course.

I've never liked the 'Real Rotors' DSP effect on Genos, it's the first thing I get rid of when setting up a registration with organ sounds. Rotary 5 can make an effective single rotor leslie sound and I use Dual Rotor Bright for a 147/122 type sound. If you're prepared to spend a few hours tinkering and tweaking you can come with some sounds which are much better than the 'out of the box' settings.

I'm an organist - old school - and I love my vintage organs, like Lowrey, Conn, Thomas and Baldwin etc. With Organ World appearing on the T5 (and then being hidden on Genos!) I was able to recreate a lot of these vintage sounds, including the rotary speakers that made them what they were.

Would I like to see Yamaha add in an amazing rotary sim? Yes. Should they have done so in G2? IMHO, yes. But at the same time, we shouldn't be totally dismissive of what's in there (apart from Real Rotors) as it can work well if pushed!

And, of course, for the gigging muso, we should always remember that 99% of the the audience won't know the difference between a Hammond and Leslie and a keyboard with a set of drawbars and a sim! It's just an organ sound to them.

[Duffy]

I respect your vision. For me it is not so interesting to have 'the best leslie sim'. There are other instruments I use more. As I wrote: I'm not  a drawbar/ leslie - purist. So allow me to accept  that 'it is what it is' and it makes me happy :  otherwise I wouldn't buy 

Of course you are quite right and I wouldn't for a minute argue with your choice.
I know many keyboard players are not particularly bothered with the Hammond sound anyway and that's their choice, but I spent many years on them and they reigned supreme in those days.
As I said,  It's just strange that Yamaha's offering on their cheap little keyboards like the Reface and the YC series, are pretty decent emulations but they are not on the flagship Genos 1 or 2.

[Duffy]

Dear Duffy,

you said
I can,  and probably will,  buy a Hammond type module with drawbars,

Well, I dis something like you suggest years ago, buying the expansion module Hammond Xm2 + Xmc2 drawbars controller, that works fine. It's a pity that Hammond does not produce a module anymore.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYDasMOBIkM

As you can see in the attached video, both the sounds and the Leslie emulation are more than decent. And please note that they were launched in 2006!!! Today Hammond organs have even better Leslie simulation, almost perfect.

Ciao,

Angelo

Hi Angelo,  Just watched and listened to that on You tube and enjoyed every minute of it my friend.  It seemed strange to be looking at a Genos and hearing that sound which I love so much
appearing to emanate from it.  That has definitely spurred me on to get a similar settup with a module.  I cannot understand at all, why Hammond dropped theirs. I loved your style of playing
and it took me back to  those years i enjoyed so much ( I'm probably searching for my younger self too ).  Thanks again and I know I'll have another listen to that. 
My very best wishes to you.  Duffy

[MadrasGiaguari]

Dear Duffy,

thank you for your kind words.

I like to give another example of something decent about Hammond and Leslie simulation. This time is not the Hammond module, but the built-in sounds and rotary effect (Rotary 5) of my old, yet perfect, Clavinova CVP309PE.

It's a simple song I composed, that I named "Friendship"......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gao2YdjHjUM&t=7s

I would appreciate your comments about Leslie simulation.

Ciao,

Angelo

[rodrigo.b]

I don't like the organ sounds of Genos. They are much better on the Korg Pa5x

[Amwilburn]

Dear Duffy,

thank you for your kind words.

I like to give another example of something decent about Hammond and Leslie simulation. This time is not the Hammond module, but the built-in sounds and rotary effect (Rotary 5) of my old, yet perfect, Clavinova CVP309PE.

It's a simple song I composed, that I named "Friendship"......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gao2YdjHjUM&t=7s

I would appreciate your comments about Leslie simulation.

Ciao,

Angelo

And this is the part where... and this isn't just answering Angelo; I saw another comment here complaining G2 still doesn't have SSS, whereas their old Technics does.

part 1: old Yamaha organs are better: CVP309 organs are *all* on the Genos. But Yamaha's choice to put the JS versions with sampled rotary in the first 5 slots (not sure why)

On page 1 of organs, the right hand side of page 1? Those organ flute organs, if you click on the organ on the main home screen, the bottom which has the dsp controls? You can actually get Leslie rotary speed up /slow down. Yamaha's choice to put the 5 JS organs first (joystick rotary) but the ones with the better old rotary sims (from the CVP309 - 709) are the next several. They're in there!

Does that excuse them from not putting these organs with proper rotary first? No. Should they also have done that for G2? yes. But those "old better sounds" are actually already in there. Yamaha just didn't feature them for some reason.


Part 2: old (any brand, ppl keep bringing up Technics) keyboard has seamless sound switching, why doesn't Genos?
Actually, even old Yamahas did. Guess what? THe General midi sounds in *all* Yamaha arranges are also SSS.

Think I'm kidding? Go to the GM/XG section (yes I know it's hidden on Genos, PSRSX, and current CVP's. This is for all the folks with slightly older Yamahas to try, or folks with the current gen Yamahas, but still the GM/XG directory pathways... those sounds are *still* in your instrument

Pick any XG sound; hold a note and switch to a different sound. Seamless. So of course Technics KNxx had SSS. so did *all* arrangers prior to 2000 (Technics keyboards went out of business in Dec 2002).

So why don't we have seamless sound switching *now*? General Midi sounds don't require loading up any multipart samples, nor do they require DSP's beyond reverb and chorus. *that* is where the SSS started appearing.

So if you're (and I don't mean Angelo, I mean just everyone in general now) going to compare old arrangers having SSS to modern ones now, then compare apples to apples: go through your GM/XG sounds and hold notes while switching. Nothing. No pops, etc. It's actually kind of surprising the first time you do it: all current Yamaha arrangers have SSS for old GM/XG sounds.

Does that excuse them from not adding it to G2? No it doesn't. Montage/MODX and PA5x have it (partially; some voices when you switch from one patch to another, the first sound sometimes just disappears) but at least  all of those don't have the sudden "POP" when you go from a soft decaying synth pad to an electric guitar with heavy distortion, they just shut off the intial sound. G1 and G2 really should have both at least done *that*.

But don't romanticise old keyboards as having better features than the new ones: New ones have those exact same features and more, as long as you restrict yourself to the same old sounds and dsps.

Again, this doesn't let Yamaha off the hook either.


And yes I've mentioned both of these points previously; it's just easier to re-type than to dig out old posts.


For the SSS it's actually kind of neat that it stil works like that with old sounds (where you don't have to flush sample buffers or instantly swap to high gain dsp's). And yes, for arrangers these sorts of things should just work (they used to! Even on old Yamahas).

If anyone still has a CVP109/ PSR8000 and earlier and tries changing patches, they had SSS as well. It's not a brand thing.


Mark

[Christophermoment]

@Amwilburn, I bet you feel just a little bit better. 

Agree with you 100%. Just human nature, we romanticize the past. Days were longer, more sunny days, things were built better etc......   Had more hair, (okay that one's true but it bugs me). 

[jimlaing]

To Angelo: I liked the Leslie simulation you have there.  The speed and depth seem much better than "Real Rotary" (which of course can be adjusted).  Is your Leslie 'file' or 'effect' something that would work on a Genos, I wonder?  (Genos 1 in my case) . . . -J

[MadrasGiaguari]

Dear Jim,

When I got Genos1, I tried to reproduce the best patches I had achieved on my CVP309PE, including the organ ones with the use of Rotary 5 effect, the most realistic available, in my opinion.
To get this result, I scrupulously checked all the many parameters involved.

BUT, i don't know why, on Genos the organ patches that were quite nice on the Clavinova, sound different (worst). The main difference is in the depth feeling.
I'm not enough aware of the technical matters to may answer why.

Anyway, if you apply the Rotary 5 (in Genos 1 you find it under Legacy effects), you will immediately notice a nice increase in depth of the sound.

Ciao,

Angelo

[Duffy]

And this is the part where... and this isn't just answering Angelo; I saw another comment here complaining G2 still doesn't have SSS, whereas their old Technics does.
Mark

Hi Mark,  after using quote,  I have had to delete all except your first line because it's too long and too confusing for me to follow whilst I try to write.
I am the poster who brought Technics KN7000 into the thread.  I don't want to derail the thread onto Technics but you seem to think I'm being unfair.
I'm simply saying that Technics and Korg have SSS ON ALL VOICES and not just on GM voices  and  I'm talking about technology which, in Technics,  is over 20 years old.
You can change a voice on Technics whilst playing a note and the old note will sound, without glitch, until you let go of the note,  and THEN it will change. 

The other point you misunderstood is regarding the Hammond & Leslie emulation.
I was making the point that the Yamaha Reface YC keyboard,  priced at £329  has a very decent Hammond & Leslie emulation on it but the Genos one costing well over 10 times more does not.
Also the Yamaha YC 61 drawbar organ and stage keyboard, priced at £1690 has a brilliant Hammond emulation which was added by a simple upgrade file.
I pointed out that, on those cheap YAMMAHA boards,  you can press a button and get a decent Hammond sound immediately, whereas, on the  Genos,  a far more expensive board, you cannot.
I know the Genos is a very good board and I know that most owners like yourself are delighted with it but that doesn't mean it's perfect when Korg has a far better Organ.
There's nothing wrong in healthy criticism and pointing out flaws which all instruments have,  and we all have different tastes and different expectations as when in a restaurant.

[DerekA]

The main reason SSS works on old keyboards, but not on new ones, is that the voices on old keyboards were much simpler. Specifically, on old keyboards they did not have DSP applied. It is the presence of DSP which causes the 'glitch' in the sounds when switching from one DSP algorithm to another. And this is not simple to solve.

[Lee Batchelor]

I haven't moved to the G2 and won't be. There's just not enough advancement for the price of $5,000 (with trade).

Andy mentioned, "And, of course, for the gigging musician, we should always remember that 99% of the the audience won't know the difference between a Hammond and Leslie and a keyboard with a set of drawbars and a sim! It's just an organ sound to them."

This is only partially true. When a player is performing, the more pristine the sound is, the more inspiring the performance can be. If you have to deal with a second rate, cheesy sound, it's hard to get excited about playing it. At least, that's a necessary criteria for me. I once had a famous musician tell me, "If your sounds on stage are crappy or the sound system is horrible - you simply don't play well." Those are the words of Ann Murray's piano player, whom I met because I had to lend him my Yamaha piano when he played in a band at our local theater. His piano had suffered a failure. It was a Roland .

I'm an ear-trained musician and don't read well at all. For me, sound quality is everything. If the sound is poor, I play poorly. I need authentic samples. The saxes on the G1 and I assume the G2 are great. I played with a band in front of 300 people the other night and they were awed at the sax solo in one of our R&B tunes. Proper sounds DO matter. For the price, we should not accept anything less, especially when those sounds exist on keyboards one third the price.

[Duffy]

The main reason SSS works on old keyboards, but not on new ones, is that the voices on old keyboards were much simpler. Specifically, on old keyboards they did not have DSP applied. It is the presence of DSP which causes the 'glitch' in the sounds when switching from one DSP algorithm to another. And this is not simple to solve.

I take it that you are referring only to Yamaha keyboards because I have heard this argument before and it's incorrect.
That would infer that Technics, Roland and Korg keyboards don't have or don't use DSP.
That's obviously wrong.  I don't know much about the inner workings of keyboards, or the causes of the glitch but,  I certainly never experienced it until I bought a Yamaha.
My Genos, on the whole is a good board and I like it but still use also, my Technics and modules. some of those voices still better the Genos so I use a bit of everything.

[BogdanH]

The main reason SSS works on old keyboards, but not on new ones, is that the voices on old keyboards were much simpler. Specifically, on old keyboards they did not have DSP applied. It is the presence of DSP which causes the 'glitch' in the sounds when switching from one DSP algorithm to another. And this is not simple to solve.

I kindly disagree with that:
1st -this problem remains if we turn off additional effects and is also present in styles where additional effects can't really be applied.
2nd -I think we all agree that Korg also uses DSP (if that would be the reason) and still, there's no SSS problem as far I know.

In my opinion, the problem is in the way Yamaha OS handles voices and that hasn't been changed in at least last two decades. Nowadays there's simply no excuse for having SSS problem.

Bogdan

[ton37]

...
This is only partially true. When a player is performing, the more pristine the sound is, the more inspiring the performance can be. If you have to deal with a second rate, cheesy sound, it's hard to get excited about playing it. At least, that's a necessary criteria for me. I once had a famous musician tell me, "If your sounds on stage are crappy or the sound system is horrible - you simply don't play well." Those are the words of Ann Murray's piano player, whom I met because I had to lend him my Yamaha piano when he played in a band at our local theater. His piano had suffered a failure. It was a Roland .

I'm an ear-trained musician and don't read well at all. For me, sound quality is everything. If the sound is poor, I play poorly. I need authentic samples. The saxes on the G1 and I assume the G2 are great. I played with a band in front of 300 people the other night and they were awed at the sax solo in one of our R&B tunes. Proper sounds DO matter. For the price, we should not accept anything less, especially when those sounds exist on keyboards one third the price.

There is also another point of view because with that view one could 'degrades' all musicians who do not have the 'best' instruments at their disposal. don't forget that music is global. There are plenty of peoples who play and experience music, even if it is with a drum and clapping. Music is 'emotion', if you can convey that as a musician, in my opinion you have 'succeeded' in your 'playing'. The street musician with his crappy guitar, the station hall pianist with a false piano. What about 40/50 years ago when most musicians played the 'ordinary' (cheap, no design, barely any quality) instruments and the audience only shouted 'bis bis' and applauded. As much as has been said: the musician makes catchy music on the musical instrument and not the other way around. That does not mean that you can also be captivated by the clarity, atmosphere and sound of music. That is also emotion. But in general it has less to do with the quality of the instrument .. Jm2c

[DerekA]

I kindly disagree with that:
1st -this problem remains if we turn off additional effects and is also present in styles where additional effects can't really be applied.
2nd -I think we all agree that Korg also uses DSP (if that would be the reason) and still, there's no SSS problem as far I know.

Yes, I'm saying that the reason Yamaha has trouble with SSS is related to DSP. Can you give an example of a voice transition which has the glitch, where DSP is not involved. I don't mean an abrupt change from one sound to another, I mean when it creates an unpleasant transition noise.

[AndrewKeyz]

There has to be a way of making SSS if the Montage can do it.

My CP88 also has SSS, even when I enable all 3 parts and constantly switch between pianos and have massive reverb on.
Never a glitch to be heard.

Surely the piano samples would be the ones that would have the biggest problems due to the sizes of the collective samples required.

[Duffy]

There is also another point of view because with that view one could 'degrades' all musicians who do not have the 'best' instruments at their disposal. don't forget that music is global. There are plenty of peoples who play and experience music, even if it is with a drum and clapping. Music is 'emotion', if you can convey that as a musician, in my opinion you have 'succeeded' in your 'playing'. The street musician with his crappy guitar, the station hall pianist with a false piano. What about 40/50 years ago when most musicians played the 'ordinary' (cheap, no design, barely any quality) instruments and the audience only shouted 'bis bis' and applauded. As much as has been said: the musician makes catchy music on the musical instrument and not the other way around. That does not mean that you can also be captivated by the clarity, atmosphere and sound of music. That is also emotion. But in general it has less to do with the quality of the instrument .. Jm2c

That sounds very much as if music didn't exist 40 or 50 years ago. The early single keyboards ( I wouldn't call them arrangers ) may have been cheap and tacky, but some of us were playing extremely expensive organs, usually with Leslie cabinets too and rhythm units were getting popular although most pubs & clubs had a drummer anyway. The audiences certainly didn't shout
"bis bis"  but did all the same things they do today.  Would I be mistaken in thinking you are a young guy who wasn't around to play or enjoy popular music in those days? 
What makes you think people only played "crappy guitars"   or "false pianos" (don't even know what that would be ). 
Don't ever believe there was no real good music until Yamaha came along with the Genos. You should be aware that there are musicians who wouldn't rate the sound quality of a modern arranger.

[Duffy]

Dear Duffy,

thank you for your kind words.

I like to give another example of something decent about Hammond and Leslie simulation. This time is not the Hammond module, but the built-in sounds and rotary effect (Rotary 5) of my old, yet perfect, Clavinova CVP309PE.

It's a simple song I composed, that I named "Friendship"......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gao2YdjHjUM&t=7s

I would appreciate your comments about Leslie simulation.

Ciao,

Angelo

Hi Angelo, Your "Friendship" sounds very very impressive and,  If I hadn't seen it  with my own eyes. i wouldn't have believed that CVP had produced that sound. You are obviously well versed as an organist and know all the little flourishes which make a difference.  I have spent quite a lot of hours trying to produce the Hammond sound I like on the Genos but have never been close to
satisfied with my efforts and so given up on my futile attempts.  It's a bit galling to find there are cheap boards now (by Yamaha) which are close to the sound but,  that's life.
Thank you and my best wishes to you.

[mikf]

Duffy, I think you missed his point. He is not saying no-one played quality instruments many years ago. Stradivarius violins and Bosendorfer pianos and quality organs have been around for hundreds of years, Fender, Hoffman and others like them have been making quality guitars for decades. I believe his point is that good music gets produced by good musicians EVEN when the instruments are not perfect.
Mike

[ton37]

Thank you @mikf, that's exactly what I meant. Maybe I didn't point out right, that's my english teachers fault

[Amwilburn]

Hi Mark,  after using quote,  I have had to delete all except your first line because it's too long and too confusing for me to follow whilst I try to write.
I am the poster who brought Technics KN7000 into the thread.  I don't want to derail the thread onto Technics but you seem to think I'm being unfair.
I'm simply saying that Technics and Korg have SSS ON ALL VOICES and not just on GM voices  and  I'm talking about technology which, in Technics,  is over 20 years old.
You can change a voice on Technics whilst playing a note and the old note will sound, without glitch, until you let go of the note,  and THEN it will change. 

The other point you misunderstood is regarding the Hammond & Leslie emulation.
I was making the point that the Yamaha Reface YC keyboard,  priced at £329  has a very decent Hammond & Leslie emulation on it but the Genos one costing well over 10 times more does not.
Also the Yamaha YC 61 drawbar organ and stage keyboard, priced at £1690 has a brilliant Hammond emulation which was added by a simple upgrade file.
I pointed out that, on those cheap YAMMAHA boards,  you can press a button and get a decent Hammond sound immediately, whereas, on the  Genos,  a far more expensive board, you cannot.
I know the Genos is a very good board and I know that most owners like yourself are delighted with it but that doesn't mean it's perfect when Korg has a far better Organ.
There's nothing wrong in healthy criticism and pointing out flaws which all instruments have,  and we all have different tastes and different expectations as when in a restaurant.

Oh absolutey, agreed; but the Technics were all launched prior to 2000 (all sounds were essentially GM at that point). Prior to 2000 *all* keyboards had sss. That was my point. Even Yamaha's PSR8000 had SSS because of this (and so did Korg PA80, Technics KN7000, etc. because *all* keyboards did). Korg doing SSS (well, again, mostly) on the PA5x *is* impressive, because we're no longer in GM voice territory. And I agree, G2 should have absolutely incorporated redundant DSP's for SSS.

And agreed, there is no excuse for Yamaha not to have the same rotary sim that's in YC, agreed, but again, have you listened to the drawbar rotary on Genos? I'm not talking about the JS ones. The drawbar rotary actually has the gradual speedup/slowdown that Angelo was praising from our CVP309 (I own one as well) but it's always been in the Genos.

Mark