New Ambience feature question

[sunny]

Friends,

Does the new Genos 2 Ambience knob changes the Ambience depth of all voices ? Is "Revelation reverb" and "Ambience depth" both are same ?


Thanks,
Sunny

[Sokratis1974]

No. In fact it is exactly the same thing that Korg did with the Pa3x for the first time in the so-called Ambience Drums something that continued in Pa4x and recently in Pa5x. We actually have control over the ambient (hall) mics as they are recorded. So what we're checking is the room mics, the thing that gives the drum kit its (space) feel. They sound (dry) when closing the ambience. Keep in mind that this technique ONLY works with the new Ambience drum kits and not the Revo or older ones. Also the difference with the Korg is that here we have a real time control of the ambience while in the Korg we have to go into the Drum Mixer to control the amount of ambience in relation to the dry sound. And Korg also has specific (specially recorded) Ambience Drum Kits, so it only works there.

[robinez]

No. In fact it is exactly the same thing that Korg did with the Pa3x for the first time in the so-called Ambience Drums something that continued in Pa4x and recently in Pa5x. We actually have control over the ambient (hall) mics as they are recorded. So what we're checking is the room mics, the thing that gives the drum kit its (space) feel. They sound (dry) when closing the ambience. Keep in mind that this technique ONLY works with the new Ambience drum kits and not the Revo or older ones. Also the difference with the Korg is that here we have a real time control of the ambience while in the Korg we have to go into the Drum Mixer to control the amount of ambience in relation to the dry sound. And Korg also has specific (specially recorded) Ambience Drum Kits, so it only works there.

this is true indeed, on the korg you can set the ambience level of drum groups in the corresponding AMB drumkits. On the pa5x this is easy to do by pressing the menu button and then the tile drum editor, on the pa4x it's a little bit harder to do.

But you can simulate ambience on any drumkit if you want by adding an insert effect where you can set the reverb levels of the room. For the pa5x there is an insert reverb effect called 'reverb room' there you can fully design your own room characteristics and you can assign a user fader to that effect so that you can modify it in realtime, then you have an even better solution in my opinion for any drumkit because you are not using a sample from a specific room but a simulated reverb from the room that you have designed yourself.

Probably there is something similar on the genos 2 so that you can have that effect on any drumkit.

[DerekA]

Ah but they keep saying "its not simulated by reverb". So they must feel it offers something beyond just an additional reverb insert.

[robinez]

Ah but they keep saying "its not simulated by reverb". So they must feel it offers something beyond just an additional reverb insert.

yes, it's a sample that you can dial in. But that one is prerecorded in the room of their choice, by using a reverb algorithm you can do it yourself.
Here is a post where i explain on a different forum how to do this on the korg pa5x, but I have no doubt that it can be done on the genos 1 and 2 also.

Ambience drums on every drumkit

The genos 2 just showed a new feature called Ambience drums, which is a really nice new feature.

On the Pa5x (and older models) we already had ambience drums with a fixed recording sample of the ambience, just select the DRUMKIT AMB of your preference that are available on the pa5x and press the menu button and then the drum editor tile to modify the ambience level per drum group.

But we want more and have that effect available on any drumkit, and not limited to a prerecorded sample but we want to create our own rooms, and that is possible on the pa5x.

On the pa5x we have an effect called 'Reverb Room', in this effect you can design your own room and add that characteristics to any drumkit we have. You have access to things like:
- the size of the room (reverb time)
- the placement of the microphones (pre delay)
- the materials on the surface (high damp)
- the density of the reflections (ER level)
- the frequencies of the source material (Pre HEQ)

By combining these parameters you can design your own rooms. So you are not limited to sampled characteristics of ambience drums.

[BogdanH]

Just my view on this...
This ambience thing is nothing really new for those who are familiar with VSTi: it's a mix of two samples within the same voice. Or to put it differently, it's the same as having individual voices for "small room, mid room, big room". The only difference is, now you can change "room" gradually by using only one (obviously large) voice.
Is this feature a game changer? Not really... ok, is nice to have. But why would someone change that during performance? We usually set these parameters (reverb, etc) to our liking when we create the song.. why changing that while playing? I mean, I never saw a drummer moving microphone at concert. Well, whatever....

Bogdan

[DerekA]

It's another tick in the (rather sparse) 'new feature' box

[RonsonDenmark]

When mixing multitrack music/stems you usually have the drums mic'd and also an overhead/room mic.

Putting reverb on the individually mic'd drums won't sound the same as what is picked up by the OH mic.

If Yamaha recorded the 2 versions for real for the ambiance drum sets then it will sound much more authentic than trying to accomplice the same with putting reverb on the dry samples from the drums.

[pjd]

Just my view on this...
This ambience thing is nothing really new for those who are familiar with VSTi
Bogdan

True that, Bogdan. Massive orchestral libraries offer samples taken through different microphones -- different spatial ambience. Naturally, everything can be mixed. 

I wonder when Yamaha will sample acoustic pianos with natural room ambience? VRM handles the piano resonances, but is kind of lacking with respect to spatial ambiance.

All the best -- pj

[BogdanH]

I need to point out, that I have nothing against this new ambience feature, because it's up to each individually if it's used or not. I can imagine that it will be mostly used by those who don't really know what's all about -simply because it sounds nice to them... and because "Yamaha sure knows what's needed".

A short explanation perhaps...
Ambience is actually room acoustic: if microphone is very close to source of the sound, then room will have minimal impact on sound. The further away from source we move the microphone, the more impact room acoustic will have. Obviously, there can only be one room acoustic (ambience) at a time.
And a little surprise: room sound is something that we don't wish to have baked in our music! -we want to hear the instrument, not the room. That's why studios are acoustically damped and microphones as close to instruments as possible.
That is, ambience is the very last acoustic parameter in chain that influences the sound before we hear it. It comes after EQ settings, after amplifier, after loudspeaker and after loudspeaker position. But with this new feature, ambience becomes a part of the instrument itself, which is first in sound chain. And what's the problem with that? The problem is, now we have two ambiences: one is inside source and the second is our real room (where we are performing). The result might sound fancy, but it definitely can't be realistic.
The only situation where ambience setting might be nice to have is, if we listen trough headphones -because in this case the real ambience obviously doesn't exist.

Bogdan

[soundphase]

You can say the same with reverb . The reverb that is added on samples is added to the natural reverb of your room.

The sample itself contains a small reverb, as the microphone is not the instrument itself and it captures the room reverberation => that's the ambience feature that we can now control
.

[Des O]

From what I have seen and videos by cover bands it seems the ambience feature is more of a studio feature than a keyboard feature.
If you wanted a professional recording the instruments are separate tracks and each one is adjusted, compressed, etc to give the overall great sound, a prime example of this is by a youtuber "arranger world" Stephan Langdoff on his Genos and keyboards. A perfect sound all going through his top mixer Steinburg UR22 MK2 on the fly recording, equalised etc.
For gigs and live performances then it doesn't matter or has little affect in anyroom. Any after production can be done in a daw or studio, my thoughts are unless your using top notch kit then this ambience is not a deal breaker. Anyone who wishes to produce this sound can already do this via the mixer parameters already in Genos 1 if you have a good hear for sound.Imo.

[pjd]

Des O makes a good point.

Maybe someday (Genos3?) we'll see and hear impulse response-driven reverb and ambience, e.g., Steinberg's REVerence.

Studio plug-ins allow importation of new impulse response data as well as presets of famous studios, e.g., Abby Road.

-- pj

[mikf]

The only situation where ambience setting might be nice to have is, if we listen trough headphones -because in this case the real ambience obviously doesn't exist.

Not quite correct, because some spaces have much more attractive ambience than others. It's why we like to sing in the bath, and why some concert halls sound better than other. By having this feature on the keyboard we have opportunity to add ambiance to our music in rooms that don't have it. Of course it becomes a matter of personal taste whether you prefer that or not. But you have choice.
Mike

[BogdanH]

@Mike
Yes, some rooms/halls have acoustically better characteristic than the others.. but that's not the point. The point is, you can't (shouldn't) add two different ambiences and expect better result.
If we exclude home playing (i.e. in living room, where sound is dampened or in studio), then in 99.9% of cases arranger musicians perform in acoustically worst possible places. In larger closed rooms, the main problem is usually too much hall/echo and by adding any kind of "ambience", it only gets worse.
There's more to that, but I'm sure you know what I mean. And that's why I'm saying this feature is only maybe nice to have for very small rooms (or headphones). Ok, I will say it: it's a gimmick.
Btw. bathroom has the worst acoustic properties possible and has nothing to do with why we like to sing there

Bogdan