Why I won't get a Genos 2: a confession

[EB5AGV]

Hi all,

This is kind of guilty confession... I need to get this out 

I got my Genos in June 2018, after just 4 or 5 months into playing. Well, beginning in music playing late in life has some disadvantages, as the obvious 'time lost' feeling (I wish I had begun earlier!), less brain plasticity and such things... But has an advantage, which is that your life is settled down, so you can spend more money on your hobbies 

So, having at that moment just a Yamaha SY77 and a recently bought DGX660, I thought a Genos would be right for me as a learning tool, so I ordered one. I was immediately amazed by its sounds and the possibilities I imagined it had (remember, I was just a fresh beginner). I had watched tons of videos and I thought that instrument would be really a long time partner for me and my music pursuits. But then I found that, to play piano, the wonderful otherwise FSX keybed was not the best. I had also bought the DGX660 just two months before. Realising that the DGX660 was a more adequate tool to learn to play piano was mostly the end of my Genos playing. More and more, the DGX660 fulfilled my needs of a piano playing learning tool and the Genos sat covered and unused for months.

In February 2020 I replaced the DGX660 with an acoustic, a Yamaha U3H. Another nail on the Genos coffin!. And then, in July 2020 I got a KAWAI VPC1 which physically replaced the Genos, which was then moved to a side located double keyboard support, with a Montage 6 White on top of it. Since then, I have played my Genos two or three times. In more than 3 years!

So, well, even if I am sure the Genos 2 will be a worthwhile upgrade to the old Genos, it is obvious that my playing path is not going by the arranger way. I play keys on a pop/rock band and the instrument I use there is my Montage 6 or my MODX6+. Again, no Genos in use 

You may be wondering why I have not sold it long ago. And perhaps it would have been the best thing to do. But well, I had always thought that, when my playing improved (and I play definitely better than 5 years ago, but still consider myself a beginner), I would find my way back to Genos. But until now, it is not that way.

So, well, here you have my sincere confession. All in all, I will for sure check the videos of the new Genos 2. But, for me, this road has reached an end. I don't know if in the future I will find a way to enjoy my arranger. I still hope so. Time will tell!

Best wishes for all,

Jose

[maartenb]

Hi Jose,

Your story makes total sense.

In general (I am oversimplifying things):

• If you want to play piano, you use a piano.
• If you play in a band, you use a synthesizer/rompler
• If you want to play in real-time by yourself with a drum track, bass, guitar, pads and phrases, you use an arranger

I am in the last category, and would use my arranger also for the other types of usage.

You obviously are in the first two categories, no shame in that. You allowed yourself to experiment and discovered where your heart is. Stay true to yourself and enjoy!


Maarten

[ton37]

Thank you for your explanation. I think that people generally 'underestimate' or 'misjudge' what a certain type of keyboard instrument is suitable for. A piano (digital/acoustic) has a much different character than, for example, an organ. Just as an arranger keyboard has a completely different playing dimension than a synthesizer. They are all keyboard instruments, but with their own specific character. The fact that you discover over time that another keyboard instrument suits you more is only positive. An arranger keyboard has good piano sounds but is not a piano. Just as much as he has beautiful guitar sounds but is not a guitar. In any case, discovering what your ultimate (even temporary) preference is is a fun journey. 

[AndrewKeyz]

Hi all,

This is kind of guilty confession... I need to get this out 

I got my Genos in June 2018, after just 4 or 5 months into playing. Well, beginning in music playing late in life has some disadvantages, as the obvious 'time lost' feeling (I wish I had begun earlier!), less brain plasticity and such things... But has an advantage, which is that your life is settled down, so you can spend more money on your hobbies 

So, having at that moment just a Yamaha SY77 and a recently bought DGX660, I thought a Genos would be right for me as a learning tool, so I ordered one. I was immediately amazed by its sounds and the possibilities I imagined it had (remember, I was just a fresh beginner). I had watched tons of videos and I thought that instrument would be really a long time partner for me and my music pursuits. But then I found that, to play piano, the wonderful otherwise FSX keybed was not the best. I had also bought the DGX660 just two months before. Realising that the DGX660 was a more adequate tool to learn to play piano was mostly the end of my Genos playing. More and more, the DGX660 fulfilled my needs of a piano playing learning tool and the Genos sat covered and unused for months.

In February 2020 I replaced the DGX660 with an acoustic, a Yamaha U3H. Another nail on the Genos coffin!. And then, in July 2020 I got a KAWAI VPC1 which physically replaced the Genos, which was then moved to a side located double keyboard support, with a Montage 6 White on top of it. Since then, I have played my Genos two or three times. In more than 3 years!

So, well, even if I am sure the Genos 2 will be a worthwhile upgrade to the old Genos, it is obvious that my playing path is not going by the arranger way. I play keys on a pop/rock band and the instrument I use there is my Montage 6 or my MODX6+. Again, no Genos in use 

You may be wondering why I have not sold it long ago. And perhaps it would have been the best thing to do. But well, I had always thought that, when my playing improved (and I play definitely better than 5 years ago, but still consider myself a beginner), I would find my way back to Genos. But until now, it is not that way.

So, well, here you have my sincere confession. All in all, I will for sure check the videos of the new Genos 2. But, for me, this road has reached an end. I don't know if in the future I will find a way to enjoy my arranger. I still hope so. Time will tell!

Best wishes for all,

Jose

Probably quite a few customers of the Genos are in that category, as I was. Switching between piano and keyboard etc.

It was actually what drew me to the PA5X-88. Oh weighted keybed AND expansive keyboard functionality?
I thought that was the perfect solution.

In reality it was still not right I thought somehow. Pitch bend / mod wheel a massive stretch. Split point difficult to locate initially. Switching between full piano and bottom chord control made little sense. etc. etc.

Maybe best to keep these machines apart and mostly spend money on the one instrument that suits you best (or indeed both if you can afford it).

Very strange eh? 

I'm not 100% sure about the Genos 2. It really depends what the advantages are over the current one and if I'm going to be wow-ed by the sound.

I actually am considering a P525 or new U1 Silent system. I already have an acoustic U1 which is fabulous.
The binaural piano samples (with headphones only) on the new Yamahas are incredible!
Even if the Genos had that on board, without a weighted keybed as good as the P525 or P515/CP88 minimum it still wouldn't be as good as the other machines mentioned.

IF I'm going to get a Genos 2, I'm considering combining it on a dual stand with my CP88 and get the P525 as well for piano practice.
It's hard to say what is the best solution for someone stuck with this type of keybed dilemma without trying I guess.

Playing JUST piano can sometimes give you more satisfaction than playing on a Genos and I think you probably challenge yourself more with having to live control everything that is heard in a piece this way.
BUT when a Genos does sound good and you can get everything together it is also incredible.

There is no telling what is the best instrument to play, only that migrating from a keyboard to a piano (and possibly back again) is maybe just natural and you should not limit yourself to either, JUST because you have that particular instrument.

[Graham UK]

I play a DGX670 which gives me both an Arranger & Piano with a very nice key-bed to play.
Owned different brand arrangers for the past 50 years and possibly DGX670 may have been my best buy for less outlay.

[AidanG]

Probably quite a few customers of the Genos are in that category, as I was. Switching between piano and keyboard etc.
It was actually what drew me to the PA5X-88. Oh weighted keybed AND expansive keyboard functionality?
I thought that was the perfect solution.

In reality it was still not right I thought somehow. Pitch bend / mod wheel a massive stretch. Split point difficult to locate initially. Switching between full piano and bottom chord control made little sense. etc. etc.

Maybe best to keep these machines apart and mostly spend money on the one instrument that suits you best (or indeed both if you can afford it).

Very strange eh? 

Absolutely. I am primarily a pianist and was also considering the Korg for this reason. However, thinking about it deeply, the only voices for which a weighted piano action is optimal are piano and, er, electric pianos. I can imagine it being cumbersome to play fluid sax lines, for instance, on a weighted 88, and certainly organs.

I'm lucky enough to gig with a Yamaha YC88 as my 'all in one' solution – but only because I (just) prefer the compromise of playing organ lines on a weighted keyboard than that of piano on an unweighted action.

Like you, Andrew, I'll probably end up putting the YC below the Genos on a two-tier stand and MIDI them up to hopefully take advantage of the best of both worlds.

[GrannyRocks]

Great discussion. Thank you. But I would love some further clarification on the two board setup. I am a pianist, but I also like having a keyboard to play flute, flugelhorn, violin, sax and more. I loved the sounds in the Genos but found the piano thin and the keyboard not responsive enough for the piano, which is my main instrument. I'm really interested in the 2 keyboard solution. What did you mean about hooking them up with MIDI? And don't you find the arm and hand positions very awkward when you have two boards. I have a lot of health issues and it's not easy to have my arms in difficult positions. Thank you.

[andy0140]

Very good discussion thread. I can relate to OP.

I am a pianist, I have been playing piano for 35+ years. I entertain at local care homes with (no cursing please yamaha police) a Roland FP-30X which is my portable stage piano. (much preferred to the DGX670 which I owned from new and was sold on). I am classically trained and play a Kawai Upright at home.

I also have keyboards and MIDI controllers too in my home studio. I own a Yamaha PSR-SX700 (only had it for 6 months) as I LOVE to arrange at home as well, have had other Yamaha PSRs over the years but the SX700 was the right option for me at the time given the price and budget...

My MIDI controller is a Novation launchkey 88 which has MIDI DIN out (as well as USB). I use the MIDI out from the LK88 to control the Yamaha SX700...And I can customize sliders and faders to control the 16 MIDI channels on the PSR - Making playback of the PSR even much more enjoyable as well as being able to extend to an 88 key bed. I also use the USB option for integration into DAW (Cubase 12)

I am on the opposite however extremely excited about the G2 which launches tomorrow and will be looking to buy one...From a personal perspective I would like to move up a few tiers from the SX700, the sounds/styles and extra features all fall into my requirements and I want to future proof for another 4-5 years too...

So I think I will be releasing the SX700 and going all in on the G2. Can I afford it ? **** No. Is the wife aware of this imminent purchase ? Of course she isnt. Do I care ? Not at the minute...

And....my first keyboard was a Yamaha SY55...

[pjd]

Hello Jose --

You have nothing to feel guilty about! I wish more folks reflected upon their musical needs and goals like you. Shucks, I wish I reflected more given past purchases!

I play MODX almost daily and it's my gig instrument. I prefer Genos and its FSX keyboard for practice, but MODX gets the most hours. I don't make that much use of Genos auto-accompaniment, but, man, it's very handy when recording demos for our church group.

I'm good with G1.  And, I'm blowing money on a CSP because I need to up my acoustic piano skills.

So far, I see nothing strange    -- pj

[andyg]

Interesting thread indeed! Is it my imagination or are the people who have the 'issues' with the Genos keybed the piano players, especially those classically trained? No non-hammer, non weighted keybed is ever going to respond like a real piano, that's for sure, but after 53 years in the business I've learned to adapt, and adapt quickly when switching instrument types. So it didn't take that long to get to grips with the Genos when I bought one.

I have to admit to a lot of jealousy when I read that Grannyrocks has a Shigeru Kawai concert grand! I've always rated Kawai above Yamaha for their pianos, and that goes back to the very early 1970s, quite a while  before I started working for Kawai! My last few years teaching music at Bonners in Eastbourne were spent using Kawai digital pianos. Superb action, and it wasn't even one of their 'premium' pianos.

But I can at least say with some degree of confidence that I may well be the only person on this board who can say that he's had dinner with Mr Shigeru Kawai when he was President of the company and also with his son, Hirotaka Kawai, who is now President. (At the time, we called him 'Junior', something that he probably wouldn't want to recall now!)

[ton37]

.......

But I can at least say with some degree of confidence that I may well be the only person on this board who can say that he's had dinner with Mr Shigeru Kawai when he was President of the company and also with his son, Hirotaka Kawai, who is now President. (At the time, we called him 'Junior', something that he probably wouldn't want to recall now!)

Tnx. for sharing: great memories!

[pjd]

Interesting thread indeed! Is it my imagination or are the people who have the 'issues' with the Genos keybed the piano players, especially those classically trained? No non-hammer, non weighted keybed is ever going to respond like a real piano, that's for sure [snip]

Hi Andy --

Genos and MODX keybeds are what they are. I don't have an issue with them. My situation goes in the other direction. Having played "synth" keyboards for so long (almost exclusively), I need to spend more time behind a so-called piano keyboard to further develop my technique and on-the-spot arranging/improvisation.

When I sit and play the Petrof grand at our church, my left hand just "goes stupid" every now and again. It doesn't have the intuitive feel for the keyboard and what it should be playing. Needless to say, this is quite unnerving in front of a few hundred people... 

Fortunately, we've saved enough pennies to splurge on a DP.

All the best -- pj

P.S. I had a similar experience meeting a member of the original Siemens family -- a truly warm person. Execs today are kinda cold...

[AidanG]

Interesting thread indeed! Is it my imagination or are the people who have the 'issues' with the Genos keybed the piano players, especially those classically trained? No non-hammer, non weighted keybed is ever going to respond like a real piano, that's for sure, but after 53 years in the business I've learned to adapt, and adapt quickly when switching instrument types.

Probably. I'm classically trained (began piano at five) but then did go over to the organ with a cheap Selmer in the 70s, and subsequently church organs. Even today, though, I count myself more as a 'converted pianist' than a true organist, especially as I still play the pedals pretty much one-footedly due to learning on a spinet! I certainly prefer a proper weighted action for piano but actually I don't mind the FSX action on my Tyros 5 – it's quite a smooth and controllable experience.

For the worst of both worlds, I can recommend a tracker pipe organ! 

[GrannyRocks]

Quote Andyg "But I can at least say with some degree of confidence that I may well be the only person on this board who can say that he's had dinner with Mr Shigeru Kawai when he was President of the company and also with his son, Hirotaka Kawai, who is now President. (At the time, we called him 'Junior', something that he probably wouldn't want to recall now!)"

Wow, and I envy your meeting Shigeru Kawai. What was that like? And I agree. I have played a number of pianos, and I love the Shigeru Kawai action the best, especially when you get to 7 feet and above. I am actually very disabled and didn't play the piano from the age of 15 until 73. I got the inner guidance to buy an acoustic piano and only improvise. And that's what I do. To my shock, I can play if not for too long, I only improvise, which I never thought I could do because I was classically trained until 15 when I had to quit, and now I even play concerts and have a Facebook page. Improvising was the magic ingredient, but this piano helps me SO much. I find most digital keyboards to be too heavy to play and the Genos hurts me to play, too, plus I haven't been able to master the dynamic control.

I can't believe I have this piano in my living room. This past February, for my 78th birthday, my husband and I sold our car, traded in our 7' grand, took out a loan and did lots of crazy things to get it. But I have never regretted it. I LOVE the sound.  Hugs.

[mikf]

I also have a Shigeru Kawaii and I think it is the best piano I have ever played and I have played most apart from Fazioli -  so to have the best of everything you have played sitting in your own room is pretty special. That carbon fiber action is like playing on silk, so if that action is your comparison base you will probably always be disappointed in everything else. And the tone and resonance are amazing.
It's not just great to play, it's a wonderful piece of furniture. Mine is unusual even by Shigeru standards because it is a very beautiful light wood veneer with the conical legs. My piano tuner says it is the best constructed  of all the pianos he works on, and he does many concert hall grands, mostly Steinway.
I read somewhere that Shigeru Kawaii was so determined to build a great piano to rival Bosendorfer, that he bought the whole mountainside which grows the best Spruce for soundboards. Maybe Andy can say if that is true.
I have had mine for over 12 years and they are pricey, but compared to the Steinway, Fazioli and Bosendorfer, I think you can say they are good value.
Mike

[jimlaing]

Yes, an interesting topic.  I've used arranger keyboards since the early Technics models (KN-1000 was my first, I think).  I have played in 5-6 piece bands most of my years (the last ~40 years) and there were times that I owned various synths and "ROMplers" etc., but I tended to always have an arranger on hand too ... then maybe 25-30 years ago I started doing solo and duo gigs, and for those, the Arranger is great.  I still play in bands (a trio, for which I use the styles/drums/bass of Genos), and with a 5 pc classic rock (and 'variety') band, and rather than purchase a synth/ROMpler or two, I use the Genos for that too - I just don't use the styles.  I've thought about maybe buying a Nord or other "stage keyboard", just for use with the band ... but I kind of like the sounds of the Genos, so I make it work (for my situation) for my band use.  If I ever had a band that was playing a LOT of gigs (we do ~3-4 per month with the band now), I'd probably go for something new ... the SK Pro is tempting as well as Nords and other stage keyboards (which often include very good piano sounds, plus synth sounds, plus sampled orchestral sounds etc). . . I even thought about the SK Pro "dual-keyboard" which would be great as it has decent pianos and e-pianos, as well as great B3/drawbar organs ... but I've kind of resisted making that purchase (For now!). Fun stuff anyway - we have LOTS of great choices these days whether it's an arranger or synth or ROMpler type keyboard ... these are great times! 

[GrannyRocks]

Mike, your piano sounds amazing. I have also played a Fazioli, even a Fazioli concert grand, and the Shigeru is less money but more to my taste. The sound is much warmer, to me. Silky is the right word for the action -- or buttery, perhaps. You're right. It's hard to play anything else, after being privileged to play this one. And honestly it gives me chills to be in the company of people who know this piano and love it too. It's not so well known as the others, so it doesn't mean that much to them, but it just sings. And you can imagine how I feel after not having even played the piano for 58 years -- to own this magical instrument. Except for medical appointments and playing gigs, I rarely leave the house, so I have my piano in the place I spend most of my time. And it's a dream I never dared to dream in my whole life. Anyway, I sound like a star-struck girl. So glad to have met you. I have been recording on it during this past year, and I'm still in awe.