Gigging Experiment: Sometimes turning on keyboard speakers with with Bose L1

[RoyceM]

We giggers deal with different situations and solutions. After many years, I might be on to something that helps me. My gear is simple: just keyboard with microphone and Bose L1. No separate equalizer.

While gigging, I have been turning off the keyboard (S975) built-in speakers using a plug in the headphone jack. I always adjust the Bose L1 volume so that the keyboard volume knob can be visually in the same range as when I'm playing at home with just the built-in speakers.

Most of my gigs are at senior facilities and in small to moderate sized rooms. It occurred to me to experiment with enabling the keyboard's speakers which would play at the same volumes as at home.  I'm finding that at SOME of the facilities this actually enhances the sound quality, adding crispness and definition. Even though the Bose L1 is considerably louder than the other speakers, the net effect on the sound "wave forms" is better.  I have confirmed this with audience members who are positioned to hear the comparisons.

Have others of you giggers done this? Or am I just "arriving late to the party?"

- Royce

[travlin-easy]

Unfortunately, the range of the keyboard's onboard speakers is very limited, usually falls off by 50 percent in just 20 feet, while the Bose L1 Compact does not fall off more than 10 percent in 100 feet. I have used the onboard speakers for very small living room parties, but they would never suffice for anything lager than a 20 X 20 foot room.

Good luck,

Gary

[RoyceM]

Hi Gary, I understand  what you're saying. However, to my amazement, at my hardest venue acoustically, I tried the combo set up and people from the far far end of this huge sound-dampened dining room reported to me that they could hear me better than they could in the past. Something happens that I don't fully understand.

Royce

[Bruce Breen]

I have always used my onboard speakers at my gigs - I never plug them off.
Regardless of the venue they are always my 'monitors' (especially while singing).

In large venues I use one powered speaker (120 watts RMS) as my 'main' amplified source, and also a set of 'gaming' speakers with a subwoofer (60 watts RMS). The subwoofer makes all the difference for the bass lines of course.
In smaller venues I just use the smaller 'gaming' speakers with the subwoofer, and the keyboard speakers then act as another source of the music. My audiences have always commented on how well they have heard me...

The Bose L1 uses several speakers, strategically placed, to do it's magic of creating a wonderful wall of sound throughout a venue.
I find my multiple speaker sources seem to do the same for me.

[BogdanH]

Unfortunately, the range of the keyboard's onboard speakers is very limited, usually falls off by 50 percent in just 20 feet, while the Bose L1 Compact does not fall off more than 10 percent in 100 feet. I have used the onboard speakers for very small living room parties, but they would never suffice for anything lager than a 20 X 20 foot room.

I agree that onboard speakers have very limited usage for public audience, but the reason for that is not falloff (decreasing loudness, I assume) at increased distance.
The thing is, no matter what loudspeaker we use and regardless of power used, at doubling the listening distance from source (loudspeaker) the loudness will always decrease by 6dB. In short: onboard speakers and any external speaker have the same falloff -it's a physical (acoustic) law.

The main reasons why external speakers are better for public audience are obvious:
1. They are directed toward audience and can be freely positioned (to cover the area of interest)
2. They usually have better physical and acoustic build quality
3. They usually use more powerful amplifier (some power reserve is always good to have).

Onboard speakers are directed upward (or slightly tilted toward player) and that way player and audience (in relative small room) can hear the sound (more or less) equally. The problem is at higher frequencies which are now directed toward the ceiling instead toward listeners. Because player is close to onboard speakers, the loss of higher frequencies isn't that noticeable. But for other listeners, that's perceived as clarity loss.
To understand why that happens, imagine a flashlight built-in keyboard (instead of high frequency loudspeaker). In a dark room, player will see light directly from flashlight and some light will also be bounced back toward him from ceiling. Audience however, will only be lit by light that's bounced from ceiling. And bounced light (sound) always has longer distance than direct light.. and at doubling the distance, there's 6dB falloff.

I hope that was interesting for some,
Bogdan

[mikf]

Although it seems unlikely that the overall sound is improved at a distance by using onboard speakers in conjunction with superior quality and power external speaker systems, there are some reasons why it could  maybe happen.
One is different frequency response. It's just possible that there is a big enough difference in the frequency response that some frequencies from the on-board speakers could reach further than others. This could explain a slight improvement in 'crispness' . There is also a chance that the different angle of the speakers could change the bounce characteristic in favor of the onboard speaker,  and those particular frequencies bounce better and further than expected.
But having said that, I am a bit skeptical about the audience perception. Asking listeners is not really a scientific approach and it's difficult to put a true weighting on their response, because just asking the question can affect the perception. It's why placebos might be included in drug trials.
Mike

[sooty8]

Hi RoyceM

I know where you are coming from, I used a S975 without any external speakers, as the  bulk of my bookings were for care homes.
I have retired now from entertaining and gone into teaching keyboard playing.
The largest care home on a regular basis was about 50 guests sitting around a large communal lounge, I was positioned  at the front of the lounge.
The large TV was fixed on the wall by the side of me so I knew this would be the best position. Before I started playing I always carried out a sound check even though I knew after being there for 20 years yes 20 years the sound would be ok. Volume  dial set between 1 and 2 o'clock  with still plenty of
Sound left if required.The type of audience and tunes we play can easily be achieved with this style of playing. Remember the audience want to be entertained they are not specialist in sound. Remember the days when there was only a piano player and no keyboards I am sure a lot of members remember those days, sound quality was not an issue.

Now playing in large halls parties concerts, the largest concert I played for was a hall, the concert was for Help The Hero's, now we are talking about sound quality, large audience and people paying good money for their ticket. Was I nervous sure was. I used a Tyros 5 with external mixing deck and two L1 Bose Speakers, what a night. for what it is worth I used in my opinion the right keyboard for the right venue. Can you imagine using the Tyros set up for the care home lounge with LI Bose speakers. To sum up, we are always talking about peoples hearing and we are all different and so is the audience,
as you said, you asked the audience, do you like the sound? they said yes, that's the awnser to your question.

Carry on the good work, after 25 years entertaining the elderly, I still miss it sometimes.

Steve

[LaHawk]

Why would you turn off  the on board speakers while using external speakers?  What's the upside?
Leaving the onboard speakers on provides a monitoring system for the player. Plus the added bonus of two additional speaker outputs.

[travlin-easy]

Well there's good news and bad, Larry, when it comes to dead plugging the onboard speakers. The good news is they are excellent monitors for the player. The bad news is that if you are a singer as well, there's usually a problem with feedback, particularly if you use a handheld mic on a stand.

Now, because I used a Crown CM311A headset mic, I had no problem with feedback, mainly because of the very short range required for the mic. However, on one occasion when I had the onboard speakers turned on, someone had walked behind me and inadvertently kicked the plug out of the wall outlet where my Bose L1 Compact was connected. It was a relatively large venue with about 100 ppl in the audience. The people in the front row could hear me OK, but those sitting at tables 30 feet away said they could barely hear the music, even though I cranked up the volume on the keyboard to where it was blaring in my ears. After a few songs, I noticed that the power light on the Bose was not lit, but the switch was on, then saw the power cord laying on the floor next to the outlet. I turned off the Bose, plugged it in, lowered the volume on the keyboard and fired up the Bose and went to work. Everyone throughout the venue could hear me just fine.

My largest audience was in a massive, big top, canvas tent at Ocean City Maryland's National Tuna Tournament, an event that draws a couple thousand people every year to compete for more than $1,000,000 in prize money for bringing in the largest tuna. They have a captains meeting the night before the tournament where they register for the event, and enter certain skill levels which ups the prize money by a huge amount.

Additionally, the right after registration, they had a 3 hour party, which I was the entertainer. The first year I performed at the event, there were about 1,200 ppl in the audience, all of which had consumed a copious amount of alcoholic beverages which were provided at no charge by the promoters. Most were pretty much blasted by the time I kicked off with my first song. The crowd noise increased incrementally as the night progressed, and the only thing that allowed my to get through the crowd noise and through the night was my Bose L1 PAS. It was a real monster, 24 speakers in the sound column, and a 10-inch, long throw sub that could blow the walls out of the tent - they loved it!

After about 5 years of playing the tuna tournament, I grew tired of the drunks, and they gave the job to a DJ. Now, the beauty of the Bose L1 systems and that there is less than 10 percent falloff in 100 feet and they have a horizontal coverage area of 210 degrees. Conventional speakers and sound systems usually experience falloff of nearly 40 percent at 50 feet and 60 percent or more at 100 feet. Additionally, they only enjoy a 45 degree area of horizontal coverage, which means that audience members situated to the right or left of the speakers only hear a small portion of the sound that those situated directly in front of the speakers hear.

Now, if you are using a separate, conventional sound system for the left and right channels of  your arranger keyboard, and using voices that are heavily in stereo, such as the Grand Piano, this produces an additional problem. The only audience members that can hear that stereo effect are those sitting in the middle of the audience within the crossing cone angles of 45 degrees from each speaker. Those sitting to the right on left side of the center cone will predominately hear the right, or left channel only.

Bose does not use stereo, but instead, combines the left and right channels into a fantastic mono sound. Ironically, this is the same thing that most theaters and churches do as well. The speakers are usually situated in sound columns on both sides of the hall, with subs positioned beneath the stage. A few years ago, I saw a large church with 4 Bose sound columns on the front wall with 4 10 inch, long throw subs beneath the stage. The church was massive, measuring 250 X 250 feet, the walls were stone and the ceiling was at least 30 feet high - a true challenge for any sound system. That Bose setup handled it like a charm and entertained an audience of more than 600 and carried out into the halls and all the adjacent rooms.

Good luck, everyone, on whatever you decide upon - for me, I'll stay with Bose for every venue larger than my family room.

Gary

[LaHawk]

Great insight and a cool story Gary. Sailors have that ability

[adrianed]

Good help there folks, my fear is buying expensive speakers and finding they don't do what I want, you can't take them back
nice warm sounding speakers with good frequency output suitable for a nursing  home sized dining or sitting room covering the angles
Perhaps Bose L1 would do that, I wonder if I need two
Adrian

[RoyceM]

I use the small L1 Bose for all my gigs, including some living room sized ones. It's very adequate for even the much larger dining rooms at facilities.

On my S975, I had to adjust the EQ to my liking.

Royce

[mikf]

Adrian
A pair of 4 inch power monitors will typically suffice for that. There are many good choices available, some for as little as $100 /pair. And even the cheapest will easily outperform the built in speakers on the PSR range. Built in speakers on the top end Clavinovas are very good, but PSR built-ins are 'ok ' at best.
Mike

[adrianed]

Thanks Royce, I will try to get a listen to the L1 seems to be popular
Adrian

[adrianed]

Thanks Mike,
I presently have the T5
Adrian

[BogdanH]

Hi Adrian,

...my fear is buying expensive speakers and finding they don't do what I want,..

-this is something we all fear when deciding. Forum can be a good info source, but keep in mind, that no matter how objective we try to be at sharing experience (about speakers we own), it is just our personal opinion. The thing is, we have different needs, expectations and budget: what is good enough for me, is not necessary good for you.
Maybe you should check this post.

..nice warm sounding speakers with good frequency output...

Keep in mind, that PA speakers are not what we consider as hi-fi speakers. For example, if you check Bose L1 specs, you can see that frequency range is only 65Hz-14kHz -even the cheapest hi-fi speakers can do better than that.
PA speakers are power oriented, with main purpose to cover broad audience (also in outdoor) -that's what they are made for (and not to enjoy the warm sound in living room).

suitable for a nursing  home sized dining or sitting room covering the angles
Perhaps Bose L1 would do that, I wonder if I need two

Bose L1 sure can do just fine.. and yes, (for keyboard) you should consider a pair of speakers -because nothing can substitute stereo experience. The question remains: two pieces of Bose L1 or a pair of good studio monitors?
My opinion.. if you plan to perform mostly indoor, then get studio monitors (not only because they're cheaper).

Bogdan

[adrianed]

Thankyou for your reply Bogdan
Just was wondering how the sound would be from a pair of speakers when using sterio for people sitting left and right of the instrument
Some will hear mostly only one channel
It could be that at a function we should combine the channels so that the full range of the instrument could be heard everywhere
One other thing there is no point having speakers with a wider frequency range than the instrument itself
Much of this cannot be tested in a normal home, we don't normally have measuring instruments and with perhaps faulty ears also, we can only use our logic
Adrian

[Bruce Breen]

The bad news is that if you are a singer as well, there's usually a problem with feedback, particularly if you use a handheld mic on a stand.

Gary,
Surprise - I've never have had this problem!
I sing all the time, so I must have the right mike on my stand (lucky I guess)!

[BogdanH]

hi Adrian,

Thankyou for your reply Bogdan
...how the sound would be from a pair of speakers when using sterio for people sitting left and right of the instrument
Some will hear mostly only one channel..

It all depends on room acoustic and speakers placement. When playing for broad audience, we should not put L and R speaker too far away from each other. In most cases it's enough if distance between them is 2-3m. You can increase distance between them slightly in relative big room, but only if audience is further away from you. If speakers are too far from each other, then what you fear will happen: people at L/R edge will mostly hear one channel. And not only that: for those who will be in the center, sound will be scattered all across the room and stereo actually falls apart. In short: audience must be able to determine where you are.

One other thing there is no point having speakers with a wider frequency range than the instrument itself

Yamaha keyboards are capable to deliver hi-fi (20Hz-20kHz) signal on Line-out connectors. How much of that we get depends only on quality of voices (samples) that we use and on speakers that we use.

Much of this cannot be tested in a normal home, we don't normally have measuring instruments and with perhaps faulty ears also, we can only use our logic

Absolutely agree!

Bogdan

[travlin-easy]

One of the best things about buying Bose is their very liberal return policy, which is usually about 30 days, depending on the product and condition.

"This item can be returned in its original condition for a full refund or replacement within 30 days of receipt. You may receive a partial or no refund on used, damaged or materially different returns. This item can be returned in its original condition for a full refund or replacement within 30 days of receipt."

Just something to keep in mind,

Gary