A casual observation from an objective viewpoint...

[keynote]

The more I think about it the more I've been inclined to change my viewpoint regarding a potential Genos successor. Firstly, the music industry is evolving and there are now many new ways of making music without an expensive keyboard. I think electronic keyboards will be around for a long time but not necessarily the portable, Uber expensive high-end Arranger keyboards because of the evolving market. Let's face it, most young musicians/keyboardists won't buy a high-end arranger because of the astronomical price tags. OTOH, older people do buy them because they tend to have a lot more cash to burn and if they're in retirement they can spend many enjoyable hours playing to their hearts content. But the market itself isn't sustainable with just mostly old folks buying them. Yamaha sees the evolving market and where it's headed no doubt, and they might have decided to abandon the high-end arranger market because of an inadequate return on its investment. Just like Roland abandoned its high-end arranger market after it released the G-70 arranger in 2005. The Genos has sold fairly well for the last 5+ years but the Clavinova line of digital keyboards, by contrast, far outsells the Genos and PSR-SX line combined. For instance, the new CVP-909 sells for $16,000 (before tax) but each unit sold generates much more revenue for Yamaha's bottom line compared to the much less expensive Genos. As a casual observer, one has to wonder why Yammie decided to give away all of its expansion packs for free after just 3 short years? Many of those expansion packs cost a pretty penny, by the way, and they were moneymakers for Yamaha in the scheme of things. Perhaps because Yamaha sees the iceberg up ahead and have decided to turn the ship in a different direction?

Btw, it could be a similar situation for the Montage synthesizer line. It is now a known fact Yamaha has discontinued production of the Montage. The latest assessment comes on the heels of a prominent music/business executive with inside knowledge of the inner workings at Yamaha, who spilled the beans. You can't find the Montage in stores or online anywhere on planet Earth except a few in Japan that are being sold on eBay at mark-up prices. That said, Yamaha might be getting ready to release a Montage successor but no one really knows for sure except Yamaha President & CEO Takuya Nakata. Remember, Roland also discontinued its TOTL workstation keyboard line after the Fantom G series was released in 2008. Roland waited 11 long years before jumping back in the game with its newest iteration of the Fantom released in 2019. But still no high-end arranger from Roland Corporation as of May 30th 2023. Korg might be veering in the same direction regarding its TOTL workstation line i.e., the Kronos that was discontinued over a year ago. While still no peep from Korg about a Kronos replacement. If in fact the Nautilus is the so-called Kronos replacement it doesn't hold a candle to the superior high-end Kronos. The Nautilus has no aftertouch, and is also missing a lot of other high-end features found on the Kronos. For that matter, the Yamaha YC Stage Organ keyboard might be the Montage successor if Yammie indeed decided to abandon its high-end synthesizer/workstation line. So many questions, but as we know, Yamaha runs a very tight-lipped ship so speculations abound.  Btw, the Yamaha UK Keyboard Club event in November of this year in the U.K. might be a big let-down for those hoping for a Genos successor. The more I've thought about it the more inclined I've become that a Genos successor will be a no-show in November or possibly at any other time going forward. The current Genos could be the last chapter in Yamaha's high-end arranger playbook because of changing market conditions. I know Peter Baartmans and Martin Harris are both expected to be in attendance, but could it be they'll be playing the new Clavinova 900 series of digital keyboards, while just crickets regarding a new Genos? Only time will tell, but I thought I'd put it out there as food for thought. Enjoy what you play!

All the best, Mike     

[mikf]

Here we go again - the TOTL arranger market in not sustainable with only old folks buying them
Why do people think this??
The facts -
There is an inexhaustible supply of old folks, ----because all young folks get old - if they are lucky!
Old folks are living longer and more actively than ever before
The combination makes  old people the largest growing market demographic
They have more disposable income than most other market segments, so it is very lucrative

Have you ever seen anyone suggest we need to cut back on building care homes because we might run out of old people to fill them???

There may be many reasons why Yamaha do not continue to support the TOTL arranger models, but this is not one of them.

Mike

[EileenL]

I totally agree Mike.
  Us old ones also like to play melodic music that you can just relax and listen to and not have your ear drums damaged for life listening to it.

[Dnj]

This kind of crystal ball discussion always surfaces with impatience,........
however this very long stretch vs years ago in between keyboards for whatever reason will be the test of time without speculation, rumor, or fantasy.. hang in there people and as its been said ...
"Enjoy what your playing now"

Cheers

[Danny1972]

I can't see Yamaha dropping out just yet personally, especially after the dangling carrot retailers have been suggesting in their blogs, I don't think they would have wasted time even mentioning a hint of the possibility, they must know something without knowing something (if you know what I mean!).

The style categories in the Genos shows that Yamaha wanted to attract musicians from all ages. I am 51 years old (I would have been around 45 when the Genos came out), and I was fascinated with the amount of 80's retro styles included, this was my era, and also surprised at how many EDM styles included, it's certainly top heavy in these genres (I would have preferred other categories getting a bit more), but that's the way Yamaha went. To me this doesn't tell me Yamaha are done yet, in fact, I wouldn't be surprised if the next Yamaha will continue this trajectory and introduce even more modern categories whilst also keeping the traditional stuff, you get the best of all worlds and everybody will be covered.

[richkeys]

Clavinova, Montage, Kronos, Nautilus....all different categories and different customers. I think the arranger market will keep thriving. Arrangers are not dead at all. The pandemic supply chain issues probably just delayed new product launches.

The "new ways of making music without an expensive keyboard" are what? VST's & DAWS? Sure there is a big crowd that uses those. But this is one area where I think expensive arrangers have a big big advantage over PC software. Nothing beats the ease of playing an arranger live compared to using PC music software.

MikeF is right, the older market is not going to dry up for arrangers. It may be true that older people can afford these hi-end arrangers more so than the younger crowd. I think the key here though is the style & expansion content. We need MORE of it from Yamaha and 3rd party developers. Yamaha's free expansion packs are not at the level of the presets in my opinion. Style content is generally lacking in choice and variety. Maybe no one wants to invest the time and money into it. Danny's comment that more modern categories & genres are needed is on target. When these younger musicians get older they would have categories & genres they are familiar with on arrangers and more musical preferences are covered.

[mikf]

Arrangers are not about to disappear. But the expensive, trailblazing TOTL arranger will become less attractive to average buyers, because the best accompaniment technology has reached plateau phase, and becoming available in much lower cost models, or packaged in piano or synthesizer type instruments. When this happens they will become a niche market in the same way as home organs. Yamaha might think its already happening. I think they show this in their stated strategy, and the models they are launching.   
Mike

[Divemaster]

Sadly I think you're right Mike, but a sort of hybrid keyboard with half arranger, half synth wouldn't appeal to me for many reasons.
Take the new E475, that's close to what I'm thinking of. I've had one.....Yes it's a significantly cheaper keyboard and pretty dire quality in my opinion, but it has tried to conbine synth and arranger, and it simply doesn't pull it off. But read on...
It's just worlds apart from the Genos and SX models, but it's not pretending to be those .

Music for the younger generations has changed and this garage, rave, rap, grunge and other stuff with flashing strobes, deep booming bass lines, and computer produced midi tracks via mini midi keyboards seems to be all the rage now. To me it's not music, just endless noise, and you would all do well to take note of Eileens comment about hearing issues...It's a serious matter. Keep banging out the bass, and you'll suffer for it in later years.

So my own projection is that the next TOTL keyboard from Yamaha will be a very much uprated and certainly heavier duty quality version of something along the style of the E475 with a correspondingly lower price than the Genos...we'll see.

Arrangers, I agree have probably reached pretty well peak, but it's still a popular instrument for home players like me, or gigging keyboasd players......I can't see anyone hauling Yamaha stage pianos around for very long.

Same with organs....They're old hat now. Houses are smaller, people generally just aren't interested in them, they weigh a ton, they take up loads of room etc etc. It's a shame. I see on a local website this morning Lowrey Symphony and Prestige organs going for a song. A beautiful old Technics SXG100C going for £1699....a fraction of what it would have cost new. I was tempted !

Unfortunately though, spares are almost non existent, and technology waits for no man. It's a risk to buy them.

I think there will always be a demand for a good PORTABLE TOTL keyboard. It's what it does that will determine its success or otherwise.

Me....I've got my trusty SX700 which I play daily, and another one in it's box, brand new, to future proof me for however many days I have left on Planet Earth. It does everything I need it to do. A fabulous keyboard.

I've said it before here...Personally I think that the SX Models are amazing, and my advice would be to buy them before they disappear for good. They are realistically priced, hugely versatile, absolutely perfect for transporting if you gig, and produce very very good music.

I like to MAKE music.....Otherwise you may as well go buy a radio.

[mikf]

The SX range is exactly the kind of keyboard I was talking about that will appeal to more buyers. Much cheaper than a Genos, similar quality of sound, does most things people need. The DGX is another, then you get a decent piano but all the accompaniment technology for much less than a Genos.
If I was in the market for a new arranger, and cost mattered, I would buy the DGX, or the SX900 along with a CK88. Fraction of the cost of a Genos and would do everything I need.
Mike

[chesterkins]

Sadly I think Mike's opinion may be the direction Yamaha are going
The comments in the financial statement, the recent YME survey pointing to updates and upgrades NO mention of new model needs
Could be the current Genos is the last of its kind
Why speculate?
Well unless you think you have made a bad decision  We already have a super arranger in the current Genos irrespective of its age
For me apart from one or issues such as the screen  I am very happy with what I have got
If I was offered a major software update for say $300 I would jump at it  just to keep the creative juices going

[RoyB]

Well, I think there are several good reasons why Yamaha could call it a day on its high-end (and even medium-end) arrangers.

Also, there are a number of equally good reasons why Yamaha could choose to continue to introduce new TOTL arrangers.

Many of those reasons have been played out in numerous threads on this forum.

At this time, none of us really know what Yamaha is going to do, and in a way it is futile to try and second-guess what Yamaha's plans are. Yamaha will do what is best for Yamaha.

As for the 'new' CVP 900 series - well, they might be new in name, but they are not exactly new in content. They could just as well have been called CVP805+ and CVP809+, but that wouldn't be as good marketing.   

[Danny1972]

Me....I've got my trusty SX700 which I play daily, and another one in it's box, brand new, to future proof me for however many days I have left on Planet Earth. It does everything I need it to do. A fabulous keyboard.

I've said it before here...Personally I think that the SX Models are amazing, and my advice would be to buy them before they disappear for good. They are realistically priced, hugely versatile, absolutely perfect for transporting if you gig, and produce very very good music.

Hopefully you will have many days!

But I couldn't have said it better, the SX models are fabulous. At one point I did have two SX900's but sold one of them so that I could repurchase a nearly new S975 because I regretted selling my original one. I think the S975 is also in a similar league to the SX series and not so easy to find.

[Dnj]

repurchase a nearly new S975 because I regretted selling my original one.
I think the S975 is also in a similar league to the SX series and not so easy to find.

Danny I agree with you,... for some reason the S975 always sticks in my mind as one of my all time favorite Yamaha arrangers especially to gig with.. I miss mine also.. 

[Duffy]

Well unless you think you have made a bad decision  We already have a super arranger in the current Genos irrespective of its age
For me apart from one or issues such as the screen  I am very happy with what I have got
If I was offered a major software update for say $300 I would jump at it  just to keep the creative juices going[/b][/b]

I also, would be happy to go along this path with some new first class sounds including A really good Hammond & Leslie sim and far better Strings. Some really good new styles too.
I could forget about Genos 2 if Yamaha offered that.

[Dnj]

Good evening,

I note that this question of the release of Genos 2 goes on a loop and some still continue to express wishes on this or that, even asking themselves the question of whether it will be released or not, even going so far as to suggest that there won't even be a No. 2.
Yes, the Genos 2 is going to be released and it will be released before the end of the year.
In terms of its appearance, it is black, it has 76 keys and a non-removable screen like the initial version.
It is already finalized.
When Yamaha decides, it will be released.
We just have to wait.

Christian

and you know this fact how?

[Divemaster]

Crystal Ball gazing!!

Quote "In terms of its appearance, it is black, it has 76 keys and a non-removable screen"

That could equally apply to a locksmiths van! 

[Divemaster]

Just a bit of fun Christian......

[J. Larry]

If what Christian writes is accurate, then, maybe, just maybe, there will also be a new Genos junior, with new SX models appearing, as well.  I'd spring for that.

[Oldden]

With the advance of software technology maybe things will change. There have been midi keyboards around for years, perhaps that is the way things will go. Programs like Kontakt 7 or maybe Band in a box will find a way to play its stuff live. My latest laptop with 12 generation chip flies along, so maybe we buy a decent, not so expensive keyboard and plug it into our computer. Companies might make a better profit buy selling music software rather than have the expense of making the keyboard. It's just a thought, can't see me ever getting rid of my Genos though, it's a far better player than I will ever be.

[keynote]

Well, I see I upset people with my post. Don't worry. I'm an adult, and I can handle it. 

As a reminder I'd like to see a new Genos as much as anyone else. If Christian, who posted in this thread, knows somebody who works for Yamaha who may have inside information regarding a new Genos, and he tipped off his friend i.e., Christian, then I guess we can all sit back and relax and take a deep breath. But the 64K question is if it's really true? Christian seems to think so, but it could be just venting some frustration because Yamaha has been so tight-lipped. The same goes for a potential Montage successor. People over at YamahaSynth.com are likely starting to pull their hair out because of Yamaha's stone-cold silence.

Maybe Christian could PM one of the moderators or even Joe Waters, if Joe is still around, to verify the information at hand. If we know for sure Yamaha will release a Genos successor, I and everyone else could save a lot of bandwidth by not posting and talking about a Genos successor. 💡 Or the lack thereof, since there have been rumors the Yamaha Genos is the last chapter in Yammie's TOTL book. DNJ (Donny from New Jersey) has also mentioned this possibility, so it's not just me. Btw, senior citizens are a tiny fraction of the overall keyboard market. Furthermore, if Yamaha could make the next Genos for around $3,000-$3,500 the marketability would expand enormously. For instance, Korg raised the price of the Pa5X by leaps and bounds compared to the Pa4X and a lot of Korg fanboys and girls said no thanks. And even though seniors might have more money to burn they won't necessarily purchase something if it costs an arm and a leg or potentially a second mortgage on the house. But these are still exciting times. Yamaha released quite a few products at NAMM 2023 one of which was the new CK-series that sound great and won't break the bank. So perhaps Yamaha will keep the ball rolling by releasing a Genos2 and a new Montage with lower price tags? It doesn't hurt to dream. Enjoy whatever you play!

All the best, Mike   

[J. Larry]

Yes, a lower price point to accommodate the masses.  Like what's going on with the new 2024 Chevrolet Trax.

[Dnj]

I would not be surprised if the next generation TOTL arranger KB if at all from Yamaha is even more costly then the current Genos is now & rightly so....

buckle up buttercup!!

[EileenL]

With the way prices are rising at the moment it is very foolish to think a new flagship will cost less than it predecessor.
  If Yamaha are true to form and are going to bring out another Genos then we know it will not be until the end of the year which is usual for them to do so why is everyone going on about it so much. Just be patient.
  Many NDA agreements will have been signed and anyone breaking them not only will lose there job but could face court proceedings so don't believe anyone who says they know first hand about it. It is all guess work and pretty obvious that if called Genos 2 the speakers would also be called MS02.

[travlin-easy]

Well, I am one of those old codgers, I ain't quite dead, yet, but well on my way. However, I will not by purchasing another keyboard in this lifetime. My antique S-950 does all that I need it to do, performed flawlessly for me for more than a decade while I was still working 7 days a week as a musician/singer/entertainer and I really have not found a reason to upgrade.

I made a lot of money as an onstage performer, enough to but a sailboat big enough  to live on, support my family and pay the bills, and still had enough to create my retirement programs. Unfortunately, several of my body parts began to fail about 5 years ago, which forced me to retire. Playing an arranger keyboard and singing to the ladies was the best job I ever had in my life. If those body parts would not have gone to Hell, I wold still be out there, singing to those beautiful ladies and making their boyfriends and husbands jealous.

As for TOTL arranger keyboards going away, I seriously doubt it. However, I do believe that the upcoming, new mid-line arrangers will take their place, mainly because they many of the same features and produce incredible sounds. We have a relatively new member on this forum, Walter, who is a friend from another forum. What Walter has created on an older PSR model arranger is nothing short of the best movie quality music. You can hear some of his wonderful creations at https://www.keyboardplayers.club/mtrax/index.php?performer=Maiemas I hope Walter does not get angry with me for posting this link. He is probably the most talented arranger player I have encountered during the last 40 years.

I agree, arranger keyboard technology may be near reaching it's plateau, but as we very well know, technology has a way of improving just when you think it has peaked out.

Take some time to listen to Walters incredible music and you will see that it is possible to make some fantastic music with your current arranger keyboard.

All the best,

Gary

[tyrosman]

suspence is a great thing cloack and Dagger comes to mind

[Dnj]

You can hear some of his wonderful creations at https://www.keyboardplayers.club/mtrax/index.php?performer=Maiemas I hope Walter does not get angry with me for posting this link. He is probably the most talented arranger player I have encountered during the last 40 years.

Thanks for the link...there are some very nice compositions in this collection for sure... enjoyable.