Play your Montage or MODX+ like an arranger..., what will they think of next

[keynote]

A gentleman on YouTube has a video demonstrating his MODX+ playing like an arranger keyboard. He noted it takes skill and patience to program the Montage or MODX/+ to make it work like an arranger keyboard. If you're interested, he also has 12 style performances for the YAMAHA MONTAGE / MODX / MODX+ for sale at this website: https://www.meditasons.com/product-page/performances-arranger-styles


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPZ2aqoerOo

PS: There is speculation Yamaha is taking a different direction regarding their high-end/mid-range? Arranger keyboards. If there is a Genos2, it could be a completely different take on what we're used to regarding arranger keyboards. Perhaps we might also finally see AWM2 in Yamaha's future high-end 'arranger' keyboards? The term "arranger" keyboard could even become passé, and Yamaha could come up with a unique moniker that eliminates the word arranger altogether. The word arranger does sound a little hokey, IMO. So much so that just a few years ago, amateur and professional keyboardists called arranger keyboards toys (even the flagship models), as you may remember, and they wouldn't touch them with a ten-foot pole. So in order to remove that disparaging connotation Yamaha, Korg, Ketron, and Roland?? could opt for a more appropriate signifier, which would likely entice more people to consider buying them. Yamaha has been trying to reach more young people, and the Genos was actually targeted toward the younger generation. 👍

All the best, Mike 


Edit: Topic title edited by overover

[Lee Batchelor]

Interesting, Mike. I've owned two Motif keyboards. The Motif can behave like an arranger, but it is EXTREMELY complicated to make that happen. I fear if Yamaha abandons their current arranger models and makes us learn how to make a Motif (or Montage) keyboard do the same thing as an arranger, they'll lose 99% of us. Personally, I can't see Yamaha dropping the arranger line but the way this world has gone over the past three years, nothing would shock me.

[mikf]

The fact that you can produce accompaniment one way or another doesn't make it an arranger. The arranger has a range of  accompaniment at the press of a button. Simple, easy, for everyone. That's an arranger.
Mike

[overover]

...

PS: There is speculation Yamaha is taking a different direction regarding their high-end/mid-range? Arranger keyboards. If there is a Genos2, it could be a completely different take on what we're used to regarding arranger keyboards. Perhaps we might also finally see AWM2 in Yamaha's future high-end 'arranger' keyboards? ...

Hi Mike,

Current Yamaha Arranger models (e.g. Genos, PSR-SX, PSR-S970/770) already use AWM2 technology. They use the same tone generator type (SWP70) as e.g. Montage and MODX. I don't know why Yamaha still says "AWM" in the specifications of the Arranger models.

By the way, on the website of our forum member pj (pjd) there is a lot of information about AWM / AWM2 technology, e.g.:
>>> http://sandsoftwaresound.net/random-answer-day-1/
>>> http://sandsoftwaresound.net/critique-genos-drawbar-organ/
>>> https://sandsoftwaresound.net/awm-an-and-vl-in-one-yamaha-synth/

Here is a link to a 2018 post by pj about AWM / AWM2:
>>> https://www.psrtutorial.com/forum/index.php/topic,44886.msg353370.html#msg353370


Best regards,
Chris

[Divemaster]

The fact that you can produce accompaniment one way or another doesn't make it an arranger. The arranger has a range of  accompaniment at the press of a button. Simple, easy, for everyone. That's an arranger.
Mike

And that says it all to me. Thank you Mike.
Horses for courses.
Those who are able and capable of, and have the musical and theoretical abilities and a great deal of time to get the best from them will always buy top end instruments. In most cases it's to make a living from, or a career out of music, so the instrument needs to be of top quality.

Those who merely want to enjoy themselves by playing music to the best of their ability will always want to play an instrument that brings them pleasure and enjoyment. They just enjoy playing, and surely that's what music is all about.

So what.... if you can't read 'proper' music.
So what.... if you can only play a few chords
So what.... If you are happy at that level.

It's all about making music surely?

I have a patent hatred of sheet music with 4,5,or 6 flats or sharps. Why make it so difficult to play?
Some of the older composers seem to delight in such scores. Maybe to show off their own prowess, or maybe just to make it seem too difficult for the plebs to play... Who knows.
Over complication kills many budding musicians. Keep it simple. Make it enjoyable.

So my own view on the idea that Yamaha would abandon the Arranger concept of playing is that they wouldn't do that.

Right in the middle of the whole subject of "Music" worldwide are hundreds of thousands of home musicians who love their instruments, and love making music. Whether on traditional instruments or on electronic instruments.

Is it really such a good idea to deliberately prevent people from making and enjoying music by making over complicated instruments that are unplayable except to professional stage musicians?

I think absolutely not. Yamaha aren't that stupid.
Arrangers are amazing instruments, and So What if you can press a few buttons to help you achieve your musical dreams.
Is that such a bad thing?

I think only the music snobs would think so in 2023.

Keith.

[andyg]

I have a patent hatred of sheet music with 4,5,or 6 flats or sharps. Why make it so difficult to play?
Some of the older composers seem to delight in such scores. Maybe to show off their own prowess, or maybe just to make it seem too difficult for the plebs to play... Who knows.

Good question!

Without getting too technical, different keys have different 'feelings', for want of a better expression, certainly a different sound. C and A minor are pretty bland. As you add sharps, you get a brighter sound - one reason why so many trumpet pieces are written in D Major, with 2 sharps. As you add flats, the sound gets richer, warmer. Perhaps the reason why so many 'standards' from the Great American Songbook etc are in Eb Major, with 3 flats.

Some minor keys are 'colder' than others, with the Moonlight Sonata being icy cold in C# Minor, with 4 sharps and even double sharps. Madonna chose the key for her hit 'Frozen' carefully. It's F Minor, with 3 flats, another cold sounding key.

Sometimes a song is written to fit the overall range of the singer, or to be where their voice is at its best. Most copies of 'The White Cliffs of Dover' are in C Major, but Vera Lynn's natural range meant that she sang it in Ab Major!

And it's often the case that pieces often sound 'better' in their original key. 'Moonlight Serenade' is usually found printed in F major, but the Miller orchestra played it in Eb Major. 'At Last' is usually seen in C or F Major, but the band played it in Ab Major. 'Stranger on the Shore' sounds best in Bb Major. And so on!

And sometimes a person will write a piece in one key, then experiment by moving it into other keys to see if they like the sound better.

Of course, there's nothing to stop us playing everything in C and using the transposer, but the disadvantage is that the backing style can get a bit muddy as you go way down, or thin as you go way up!

[Lee Batchelor]

Excellent points, Andy!

If I may add, yes you can use the transposer to move the key from C to G by dropping the Genos -5 semitones. While it "sounds" like it's in G, the feel is different because of the tempered scale. Am I correct on this?

I use the transposer for the tougher songs - mostly due to laziness and the lack of time to learn the tougher scales and licks. My piano teacher told me that the geography of C is often difficult for certain passages. He once played a stellar solo in E on his piano. He used an interlaced fingering technique in the upper register, playing 16th note triplets. I asked if he could show me that solo in C. He tried but it was impossible. He is totally blind and holds a Grade 10 certificate, in which he scored 99% on the practical exam. He really knows his piano and alphabet!

[mikf]

Everything Andy says is spot on - and there is yet another reason commonly used to pitch a piece. Instruments are not pitched the same. Most brass instruments will play in Bb or Eb when their manuscript is in C. So Eb or Bb are like home keys for them and easier to read. So most big band stuff will be in flat keys unless they are pushed to match a vocalists range. I think some people write popular songs in those keys because they get used to that. Same is true for guitarists and sharp keys.
Billy Joel once said C is like speaking English, F and G like learning Spanish, - not too hard- but C# is like learning to speak Urdu. So these 'complicated' keys may be real difficult for budding keyboard players, but not for the trained and experienced arranger or composer. To them the keys are all equally transparent so they pick what seems best for the piece at hand.
Mike

[pjd]

Thanks for posting those links, Chris. As to the use of "AWM" instead of "AWM2", a chap in Yamaha marketing basically replied, "We got tired of typing the '2'." 

Folks who know Motif/MOX, Montage/MODX arpeggios, patterns and so forth are not that amazed at this video. People have been able to do this for 10+ years. Ones in the know simply took the time to learn their instrument in depth, instead of chasing the next shiny object.

Ironically, many of the Motif arpeggios originated in Yamaha arrangers circa 2008 or so. Yamaha deconstructed arranger styles into arpeggios (musical phrases). You can find all of the basic phrases in the old "Soul" style, for example. Some of the arpeggios follow chord changes.

So, this chap has combined and (re) constructed styles, storing them in Montage/MODX scenes. I just went through this process for a bluegrass thing-y that I wanted to try live. One changes the "style" section by pressing a different scene button. What you will really miss on Montage/MODX is auto-fill. There isn't any. When you watch the video, please notice that the demonstrator manually plays a FILL and then changes back to a MAIN.

If you went through the process of creating a "style" on Montage/MODX even once, you would run screaming in terror to an arranger keyboard.  Yamaha know this and that's why they offer the synth and arranger product lines. Different strokes for different folks.

All the best -- pj

[overover]

Thanks for your detailed feedback, pj!


Best regards,
Chris

[mikf]

Those who are able and capable of, and have the musical and theoretical abilities and a great deal of time to get the best from them will always buy top end instruments. In most cases it's to make a living from, or a career out of music, so the instrument needs to be of top quality.

Keith - not really the case. Most instruments are very simple, violins, pianos, clarinets, etc etc.... Almost unchanged for hundreds of years. It's who can play them well that matters. When I was much younger and a decent player, playing for money, I couldn't afford the best instruments. It always seemed to me in fact that the most expensive instruments often were owned by very average players ... but they had more money than me!
As I said, traditional instruments are not technically complicated, but electronic keyboards have developed with massive technical content, some to make it easier to play, some to allow a lot of sound manipulation. And because some people love gadgets, they spend a lot of time on the technical possibilities. Sometimes more than they spend playing. In all honesty those are seldom the best musicians. Billy Joel for example  is a fantastic musician who uses advanced electronic keyboards, but claims to know little about them. He has a crew member who is a technical expert on these keyboards, and sets them up for him so he doesn't have to do anything but play. I even saw him once live on stage have to stop and get the guy out to re-set everything for him because he hit a wrong button and screwed it up. 
Mike

[groovyband.live]

The fact that you can produce accompaniment one way or another doesn't make it an arranger. The arranger has a range of  accompaniment at the press of a button. Simple, easy, for everyone. That's an arranger.
Mike

This post https://psrtutorial.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=19635 explains the shortcomings of faking an arranger using the built-in MODX/Montage firmware (which is not intended to support arranger style playing).

On the other hand, there is a dedicated software that implements advanced arranger capabilities using MODX/Montage sounds/DSPs. Check this link https://www.groovyband.live/modx/ for all the details, including some videos.

For those willing to retrofit their Yamaha XG keyboards (arrangers/digital pianos) to upgrade their venerable decades old firmware, there is also a version for them: https://www.groovyband.live/xg/. Reading (or even skimming through) the online user manual will give you a glimpse of what is possible (and is only a pipe dream on Yamaha HW).

[Tommy 73]

This post https://psrtutorial.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=19635 explains the shortcomings of faking an arranger using the built-in MODX/Montage firmware (which is not intended to support arranger style playing).

On the other hand, there is a dedicated software that implements advanced arranger capabilities using MODX/Montage sounds/DSPs. Check this link https://www.groovyband.live/modx/ for all the details, including some videos.

For those willing to retrofit their Yamaha XG keyboards (arrangers/digital pianos) to upgrade their venerable decades old firmware, there is also a version for them: https://www.groovyband.live/xg/. Reading (or even skimming through) the online user manual will give you a glimpse of what is possible (and is only a pipe dream on Yamaha HW).

Looks interesting... will take a deeper dive and investigate further 

[Divemaster]

Sincere thanks to you all for these useful insights into music production, and to you Andy for your amazing musical knowledge which I hugely respect.  Apologies for going off topic, I was merely trying to illustrate why players like myself would probably never buy hugely expensive keyboards and why sensibly priced arrangers are so attractive. Sensibly to me is between £800 and £1500...beyond that isn't beyond my means, but it's way above my ability to play. I love my SX700 for that reason.
Keith

[kiplis]

Hi.

I would be interested in to know, if anyone in the forum is using Groovyband.live with Genos
and what their experiences are?

-kiplis-

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi
On the muscical side of things ,i would like to say that it is not that hard to play in any key and some songs do sound better in their original key.
All you have to do is practice each key scale and in no time you would get used to it.
Study the F,A,C,E and the Every Good Boy Deserves Favours as it will pay dividends.
The thing is that practice pays off in the end.
I must admit though that i have only played arrangers from the start and really i would say it is just as hard to play and reach for buttons all over the place as to the piano.
Saying that over time i have tried to play with the left hand  and over time with a struggle i now am playing better with my left hand as i now have a lot of chords in my brain over time.
It all comes down to where you are and what age you are, so music whatever should be enjoyed no matter what level you are.
I started out with Kenneth baker books at 30 years old and now 72 and it is only now i have real confidence, but yes still make mistakes.

[Jeff Hollande]

Hey John :

Who does not make mistakes ? I do make them often.

IMHO, it is more important the player is aware he/she is making mistakes from time to time and to find out why and ... how to avoid these mistakes.

My 2 cents, JH

[mikf]

The beauty of the modern Arranger is that it has so many tools available - everything from easy chord modes, professional sounding accompaniment and a variety of sounds - that it allows almost anyone, at any stage in life and starting from quite limited musical ability, to learn to produce decent sounding music in a reasonable time - even John       .
But let's not kid ourselves, there is a massive gulf between knocking out a decent version of a pop or country song on an arranger, following a simple lead sheet, even in uncomfortable keys, compared to playing Chopin and Beethoven competently on a piano, note for note, from the original scores in Zb. I don't know of anyone who started  later in life and gets to that level, no matter how much they practice. There may be some exceptions, but it is largely the domain of those who start young, have natural ability and dedicate themselves. 
I started Classical training at 7 years old - and still never got to that level! Obviously lacked the natural ability and the dedication 
Mike

[richkeys]

Interesting, Mike. I've owned two Motif keyboards. The Motif can behave like an arranger, but it is EXTREMELY complicated to make that happen.

Lee,
Agree. I have experience with MODX, not Motif, and it just cannot come close to the quality of an arranger and yes it's much more difficult to program as well. Trying to build from the MODX's preset arps & rhythm patterns for this purpose is a nightmare. For MODX users Yamaha does offer a free library of 512 Performances originating from the Motif, many of which are arranger-like with left hand accompaniment and right hand leads, and to some degree they are usable, but just not the same as an arranger. Choosing and processing RH lead instruments is not that quick either. Regarding the 12 arranger-like performances mentioned in the orignal post here, I think that kind of programming is skillful & innovative, however 12 of those "styles" is just not enough compared to the thousands of arranger styles available.

Rich

[richkeys]

If you went through the process of creating a "style" on Montage/MODX even once, you would run screaming in terror to an arranger keyboard.  Yamaha know this and that's why they offer the synth and arranger product lines. Different strokes for different folks.

That's for sure, at least for someone like me who admittedly can't program the MODX in depth very well with its confusing UI. In fact, I just traded in my MODX7+ for an SX900 this week   What annoyed me about MODX is that Yamaha's own yamahsynth.com site failed to provide any really helpful beginner tutorials on how to choose arps & rhythm pattern effectively from the 10,000 or so preset arps, or how to build basic custom arpeggios. Their TechTalk video series on these subjects are too advanced for people starting out. YouTube has a few videos but overall it's lacking. That's why arrangers will always be the better choice for those who are not comfortable doing a lot of tech programming on synths.

[pjd]

how to choose arps & rhythm pattern effectively from the 10,000 or so preset arps, or how to build basic custom arpeggios.

The UI for finding arpeggios has always been lacking. I got into creating "styles" on MOX using the iPad-based apps. That made life easier and got me over the hump.

Auditioning all of those preset arpeggios is another matter. No way. I obsessively re-created about 100+ "styles" from related preset arpegios, that is, pulling together an MOX 4-part Performance from the drum, bass, guitar, ... arpeggios named "Funk" or whatever. Once you've done 10 of them, you know how to navigate the interface. 

Having the experience on MOX made scene-based performance "style" creation easier on MODX.

Creating custom arpeggios on Motif and its successors has always been more art and persistence than science. I don't think Yamaha ever really intended people to do that themselves.

Even though people complain about how hard it is to create arranger styles, it is still much easier than doing it on a Yamaha synth.    Making styles is hard work, has a steep learning curving. Most ordinary people bail.

Oh, well -- pj

[overover]

... I would be interested in to know, if anyone in the forum is using Groovyband.live with Genos
and what their experiences are?

-kiplis-

Hi kiplis,

You can download a free Demo version of "Groovyband Live XG" that contains all (906) currently available Styles to test the software:
>>> https://www.groovyband.live/xg

Unfortunately, as far as I know, you can only work with the integrated Styles (which have a special format), but you cannot load/use any Yamaha styles (SFF1/SFF2 format). As long as this stays that way, this software is a no-go for me. In addition, the software is not cheap.

Each user has to decide whether a price of 199, 299 or 399 euros (depending on the number of integrated styles and the number of usable DSPS) is ok for him.. To use the software in live operation, you also need a PC/laptop as well as a suitable touchscreen display or at least a suitable MIDI controller. Also note that special MIDI settings must be created on the keyboard used, e.g. Genos/Tyros/PSR-S/PSR-SX or MODX/Montage.

MIDI Setup for XG version:
>>> https://www.groovyband.live/xg/manual/midi-ports-setup/

Product page and MIDI Setup page for MODX/Montage version:
>>> https://www.groovyband.live/modx/
>>> https://www.groovyband.live/modx/manual/midi-ports-setup/


Edit: The MODX/Montage version has a different pricing model than the XG version. And the MODX/Montage PLATINUM version can already load Yamaha SFF2 styles (but why not SFF1 too?). I suspect that this feature will also be implemented in the other MODX/Montage versions (STD and PRO) in the future as well as in the XG versions. This would certainly increase user acceptance of this software. (See the following post from "Patt22".)


Best regards,
Chris

[Patt22]

Hello,
The Groovyband.live software for Modx / Montage is not at the same price as the XG version and has only 10 styles internally, the others are sold by packs of 20 styles even with a 20% discount for 5 packs purchased alas that puts the 896 styles of the XG version for this version modx / Montage-"Platinum" much less attractive despite the small base price:
https://www.groovyband.live/modx/

What is interesting is that the modx / Montage Platinum version ( not the xg ) can now load the Yamaha SFF2 styles with some settings as for all styles imported from another machine, a lot of work but save in Groovy format ! If you don't have a touch screen, the Binding function allows you to put the major commands you want on the keyboard keys !
I have the xg Platine (acquired in promos) and I would like that Yamaha integrates some good ideas that there is, the best is to try the 2 free versions to get an idea by respecting the midi settings and save them ... more than to !

The instructions are online ...

[overover]

Hello,
The Groovyband.live software for Modx / Montage is not at the same price as the XG version and has only 10 styles internally, the others are sold by packs of 20 styles even with a 20% discount for 5 packs purchased alas that puts the 896 styles of the XG version for this version modx / Montage-"Platinum" much less attractive despite the small base price:
https://www.groovyband.live/modx/

What is interesting is that the modx / Montage Platinum version ( not the xg ) can now load the Yamaha SFF2 styles with some settings as for all styles imported from another machine, a lot of work but save in Groovy format ! If you don't have a touch screen, the Binding function allows you to put the major commands you want on the keyboard keys !
I have the xg Platine (acquired in promos) and I would like that Yamaha integrates some good ideas that there is, the best is to try the 2 free versions to get an idea by respecting the midi settings and save them ... more than to !

The instructions are online ...

Thanks for this information, Patt22!

I hadn't realized that the XG version is very different from the MODX/Montage version, including in terms of pricing.


Best regards,
Chris

[hans1966]

Hi Guys, after having synths and arrangers for over 30 years, I'm definitely sticking with the arranger.

They are two totally different worlds, and for different needs

When some friends ask me about the difference between an arranger keyboard and a synth workstation, I reply with a slightly joking comparison and it goes like this:

"In the synth workstation, you have the perfect ingredients to make a delicious soup, whereas in the arranger you already have the soup made"

This does not exempt the player from the knowledge of the tools and functions of the arranger, but it certainly makes it more practical when playing live.

just my thoughts

Hans

[kiplis]

For Chris and Patt22, thank you for your advice.

I think I'm going to try Groovyband while waiting something new from Yamaha.

-kiplis-

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hey John :

Who does not make mistakes ? I do make them often.

IMHO, it is more important the player is aware he/she is making mistakes from time to time and to find out why and ... how to avoid these mistakes.

My 2 cents, JH

My half cent is Jeff . "fingers seem to have a brain all of their own"

Practice is the key or you will go rusty!!

[DerekA]

I think I'm going to try Groovyband while waiting something new from Yamaha.

Obviously, it's your decision. But personally I just do not see what Grooyband brings to the party for an XG arranger. I've looked through the manual (admittedly not in forensic detail) and I just can't see any functionality which it actually adds. Sure it has a colourful user interface, but it's not clear to me what you can actually *do* via Groovyband that you just can't do on the bare arranger itself.

[kiplis]

Obviously, it's your decision. But personally I just do not see what Grooyband brings to the party for an XG arranger. I've looked through the manual (admittedly not in forensic detail) and I just can't see any functionality which it actually adds. Sure it has a colourful user interface, but it's not clear to me what you can actually *do* via Groovyband that you just can't do on the bare arranger itself.

Obviously, play with it, while Yamaha is telling us nothing about the future. I have seen so many negatives about Ketron Event and Korg Pa5X, that there is no reason to trade Genos with those instruments. I just buy "additional toy" to Genos while waiting Yamaha. Simple as that 

-kiplis-

[Gunnar Jonny]

Take a look at his video that I found in a post at psrtutorial Forum:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8ASrJITXCA

Or here, when find more interesting stuff regardin use a synth as an arranger:
https://www.youtube.com/@synthfills2851