Evidence of bad keybed on Korg Pa5X 88

[AndrewKeyz]

FYI

A Korg Admin removed my post in the Korg UK Official Pa5X / Pa Series Owners Facebook Group in which I shared my video also.
It was weird because it says "an admin gave you feedback on your post...." I click the notification and there is nothing there to see, no feedback, no message from Korg.




The original post and the notifications of all the (mostly shocked) reactions are gone. Some insisted that Korg contacted me directly btw. I will wait to contact them myself until I have given Bonners ample time to respond.

Note: I was far more polite and respectful than I have been on the forum here in my Facebook post. Simply stating the hardware issues, my disappointment with the machine and that I really tried to like it.

I appreciate the argument that my unit could just be a bad apple but it is still my one and only experience with this machine so far. What else can I say about it if the keybed is that bad and is ratting / squeaking in multiple keys in two areas?

[BogdanH]

Well, it's no secret that "official" places are sponsored by some brand (one way or another). You probably phrased your "finding" wrong... you should write something like "just found out that keys are getting louder, which gives much more authentic (vintage piano) experience -just awesome!" 

Sorry, just couldn't resist 
Bogdan

[Divemaster]

The hard reality of this is that potential consumers or customers these days very wisely do all their pre purchase research online, whether it is from reviews, watching performances on YouTube, seeking advice on forums such as this, or seeing and sharing information and performance about any particular instrument compared with others. 
Then they make a decision about what instrument to buy, and where to spend their hard earned money.



KORG need to step up to the plate and replace the keyboard, or refund you in full. I certainly would not accept any kind of repair on an instrument of this calibre that is still within its first year of warranty. That's unacceptable.

It doesn't matter about all the ins and outs of it. The bottom line is that it reflects badly on their pretty new FLAGSHIP PRODUCT, and having spent that kind of money on a professional class keyboard, I too would be extremely angry indeed. Whoever passed this instrument through their quality control has let KORG down bigtime.

Pulling F/B posts on it is not the proper way to KEEP CUSTOMERS and ATTRACT new customers. Other prospective buyers (like I may well have been, but not now) will see that as a BIG concern when spending that kind of money.

A lot of musicians will be watching this post to see how Korg deal with it. ME....I'll wait for the new Genos I think.


I hope you get resolution.

[AndrewKeyz]

Well, it's no secret that "official" places are sponsored by some brand (one way or another). You probably phrased your "finding" wrong... you should write something like "just found out that keys are getting louder, which gives much more authentic (vintage piano) experience -just awesome!" 

Sorry, just couldn't resist 
Bogdan

I could have written "I was looking for a rattling shaker sound in the Pa5X sound library. I found out some of the keys do it anyway. Thanks Korg, you're the best."

[AndrewKeyz]

The hard reality of this is that potential consumers or customers these days very wisely do all their pre purchase research online, whether it is from reviews, watching performances on YouTube, seeking advice on forums such as this, or seeing and sharing information and performance about any particular instrument compared with others. 
Then they make a decision about what instrument to buy, and where to spend their hard earned money.



KORG need to step up to the plate and replace the keyboard, or refund you in full. I certainly would not accept any kind of repair on an instrument of this calibre that is still within its first year of warranty. That's unacceptable.

It doesn't matter about all the ins and outs of it. The bottom line is that it reflects badly on their pretty new FLAGSHIP PRODUCT, and having spent that kind of money on a professional class keyboard, I too would be extremely angry indeed. Whoever passed this instrument through their quality control has let KORG down bigtime.

Pulling F/B posts on it is not the proper way to KEEP CUSTOMERS and ATTRACT new customers. Other prospective buyers (like I may well have been, but not now) will see that as a BIG concern when spending that kind of money.

A lot of musicians will be watching this post to see how Korg deal with it. ME....I'll wait for the new Genos I think.


I hope you get resolution.

Very good post. Thanks.


I've heard from Bonners who have asked if I can bring it to their MK branch which is not too far for me. I wanted to go anyway to look at other options.

As you said Divemaster, I definitely don't want a fix / have it returned. I fully agree, this experience has been enough to put me off anyway.


If I DID really want to keep the PA5X functionality I would definitely be insisting on switching to the 76 or 61 key version.

[Jeff Hollande]

Hey Andrew :

I found it very strange Bonners did not answer you yet.  Apparently Bonners contacted you in the meantime, right ?

At least this dealer might send you ( asap ) a confirmation of your complaint and tell you it is being processed.
Hopefully Bonners is now in conversation with Korg to find a solution that will suit you. Cross my fingers !

Best wishes, JH

[AndrewKeyz]

Hey Andrew :

I found it very strange Bonners did not answer you yet.  Apparently Bonners contacted you in the meantime, right ?

At least this dealer might send you ( asap ) a confirmation of your complaint and tell you it is being processed.
Hopefully Bonners is now in conversation with Korg to find a solution that will suit you. Cross my fingers !

Best wishes, JH

Thanks Jeff, yes I heard from Bonners. Will be taking the keyboard back to them. Will see what my options then are I guess. Don't need my money back but a decent chunk of the keyboard's value back in credit spent at them would be acceptable.

[Jeff Hollande]

Andrew :

Hope their proposal will suit you.
Then you finally can close this subject and move on !

All the best, JH

[AndrewKeyz]

Just an update.

The PA5X has gone back to Bonners and they reckon it should be fixed in several weeks as Korg are apparently quite local. I will still be selling it on or exchanging.



The chap at Bonners was super friendly. It is a nice store for sure. I hope I can always stay on good terms with these guys.
Having said that the extended warranty options at Gear4music (which ARE transferrable when you sell on the equipment unlike Bonners I believe) are very competitive looking.

I tried out a number of keybeds in my quest to have a weighted piano action alongside a Genos (and probably Yamaha's next arranger later this year / next year as replacement/addition).
(Not sure this will help anyone, but I'd rather post this for you friendly guys rather than starting a pianoworld account)

My findings:

Kawai CA99 (Grand Feel III)
There is no competition. This is by far the quietest and smoothest digital keybed as I remember it being great on the CA67 also. Absolute joy to play on.
Their in store MP11se they recently had was apparently sold but I'd rather have a new one anyway. Think that will be the one.
A VPC1 is probably ok but seems a bit of an older model now, and maybe on board piano and other controls are still nice to have. New stock MP11se are due in July. But maybe Kawai will show a MP12 at NAMM. Will wait to see what happens whilst I am waiting on stock.
If you are looking for a digital piano upright, the CA99 is easily the best I reckon. Very nice. A bit odd having volume on one side and piano controls on the other. I thought this was a bit strange. In fact the volume buttons on all Kawais seemed to be in slightly strange locations. I had to look for them whilst that wasn't the case elsewhere.

Yamaha CVP809
Very nice for sure. Seemed like fun to play and I messed around with the piano room for a few minutes.
Not as nice as the Kawai wooden keybed but probably one of the best plastic /hybrid ones, whatever it is in there. A nice all round instrument.
Don't think I would get the best out of it though. A Genos and separate weighted action I think is my style. I love the Genos so much. Don't think a CVP can replace that for me personally.

Kawai ES920
Almost as good as the CVP809 I would say. Very good for a plastic keybed. Far better than the PA5X. Noticeably better than the Roland FP90 next to it.
Doubt I'd ever have a Roland weighted action again. I was disappointed with the RD2000.

Nord Grand
The weirdest one of the day.
Surprisingly strange! When I pressed the keys down there is this sort of knocking at the bottom that doesn't feel natural / right. It's like they are trying to mimic some type of wooden piano knocking that I am not familiar with. I think the ES920 would be better, which is weird at this price.
The sound was good though of course, since it's Nord. Disappointing keybed wise as this was a contender alongside the MP11se for me. Out of the question now.

Nord Piano 5
Disgusting Fatar keybed like the PA5X. Obviously worse than the ES920 and also the FP90, easily the worst one I tried in the entire shop. ULTRA noisy, like you are hammering a flatpack together. I don't get why/how people put up with this Fatar stuff at these prices. Awful. I get that it has to be manageable and portable for these digital pianos so HAS to be plastic but Roland, Kawai and Yamaha do this so much better. So strange.
The Nord Grand does seem better but like I said, that knocking thing, I just don't think I can get use to it. Shame. No Nord for me again I think.

PA5X - 61
The biggest surprise of the day probably.
It wasn't switched on but I gave the keybed a little try. It seemed excellent. 
I'd recommend going for the 61 or 76 key option if you want a PA5X! If you need a weighted keybed, get one in addition and go for a high end plastic or wooden Kawai.

Kawai MP11se it is I think....

Will give an update once that setup is in place.

[Amwilburn]

Andrew, minor correction(s)

The CVP809 keys are solid wood, not a plastic hybrid (except of course, the keystops are plastic, just like on actual pianos). They are even counterweighted. But agree, with loving the possibilities on the Genos, the CVP809 isn't quite as flexible as it's little brother. More of a beautiful furniture piece.

The Kawaii ES920 and the Nord Grand have the same keys! (both use the Kawai RHIII plastic keys action) so it's odd that you liked the 920 and hated the Grand (I personally like the Nord Grand's plastic key action more than any of the fatar keys, but to me, still nowhere near the wooden key actions on P515, CP88, etc)

I agree the Pa5x 61/76 keys are a joy to play on. Not piano keys, but they just feel so good for non-piano keys.

But if you're going to test all those you absolutely should try the CP88, especially with the newly released free Bosendorfer and Steinway updates.

And if you're considering the CA99 (which isn't portable) I'd definitely look at the Yamaha N1x (or Nu1x if the budget demands). They're the actual mechanical key actions from Yamaha acoustics, and the binaural 3-d headphone on the N1x is so good that you can't tell you're wearing headphones... try it and you'll see).

The best key action from any brand, any model? is actually on the Yamaha N2/N3x's but be warned... they're up there in price too!
Mark

[AndrewKeyz]

Andrew, minor correction(s)

The CVP809 keys are solid wood, not a plastic hybrid (except of course, the keystops are plastic, just like on actual pianos). They are even counterweighted. But agree, with loving the possibilities on the Genos, the CVP809 isn't quite as flexible as it's little brother. More of a beautiful furniture piece.

The Kawaii ES920 and the Nord Grand have the same keys! (both use the Kawai RHIII plastic keys action) so it's odd that you liked the 920 and hated the Grand (I personally like the Nord Grand's plastic key action more than any of the fatar keys, but to me, still nowhere near the wooden key actions on P515, CP88, etc)

I agree the Pa5x 61/76 keys are a joy to play on. Not piano keys, but they just feel so good for non-piano keys.

But if you're going to test all those you absolutely should try the CP88, especially with the newly released free Bosendorfer and Steinway updates.

And if you're considering the CA99 (which isn't portable) I'd definitely look at the Yamaha N1x (or Nu1x if the budget demands). They're the actual mechanical key actions from Yamaha acoustics, and the binaural 3-d headphone on the N1x is so good that you can't tell you're wearing headphones... try it and you'll see).

The best key action from any brand, any model? is actually on the Yamaha N2/N3x's but be warned... they're up there in price too!
Mark

Thanks Mark for taking the time to comment.

That explains the quality of the CVP for sure.

I will try to find a CP88 to try. I may end up getting one in addition to a MP11se (or MP12 IF there is a follow up soon) regardless since those don't fit in the studio desk drawer I have and are too heavy for that also.

I know about the plastic Kawai keybed in the Nord Grand. There was definitely a difference compared to the ES920 though. I can only describe it as some type of additional mechanical "knock"  once a key hits the bottom of the keybed. Not absolutely horrendous or unplayable (still better than the Fatar keybeds) but just not natural I thought. Very strange in fact. Possibly like you are playing an old piano or so?

Interestingly I forgot to mention I also tried an old CVP409 that was on display. It seemed very good actually keybed wise. It caught my attention more than the 809!

[tyrosman]

FYI

A Korg Admin removed my post in the Korg UK Official Pa5X / Pa Series Owners Facebook Group in which I shared my video also.
It was weird because it says "an admin gave you feedback on your post...." I click the notification and there is nothing there to see, no feedback, no message from Korg.




The original post and the notifications of all the (mostly shocked) reactions are gone. Some insisted that Korg contacted me directly btw. I will wait to contact them myself until I have given Bonners ample time to respond.

Note: I was far more polite and respectful than I have been on the forum here in my Facebook post. Simply stating the hardware issues, my disappointment with the machine and that I really tried to like it.

I appreciate the argument that my unit could just be a bad apple but it is still my one and only experience with this machine so far. What else can I say about it if the keybed is that bad and is ratting / squeaking in multiple keys in two areas?

send it Back you Have consumer rights here to me Korg is a bag of crap

[BogdanH]

... to me Korg is a bag of ****

Korg is a waste of Space

who gives a stuff about Korg ...

I appreciate constructive criticism or opinion, where I expect it to be supported by some evidence (either from personal experience or from elsewhere). That way we can learn something and hopefully make better decisions.
But I don't see that in these posts, where the only intention is, to bash a product/brand -which is kinda immature.

Bogdan

[Jeff Hollande]

Hey Bogdan :

I understand your point of view but we all have to accept some people, who bought the new PA5X as of July 2022, ( apparently ) are disappointed.
When they are explaining here why they are disappointed, it is very understandable most potetential buyers are influenced by the reactions of those who have expercienced these PAX5's shortcomings.

The PA5X is an expensive high end arranger and in the beginning most of us had high expectations of the PA5X, right ?

It must have been a sour pill for them if the expectations have not been met.
In their eyes Korg have made a big mistake by launching a high end arranger that showed many defects.

Can one blame these people they have shared their dissatisfaction and disappointment in this Forum ( and possibly somewhere else )  ?

Best regards, JH

[rikkisbears]

Hi, haven't had any problems with my PA5x keybed.  I did globally turn down the bass, drums and accompaniment to 70%  and leave melody at 100% . It's global setting ,  doesn't affect the volume mix of of the individual tracks(sx900 has similar type of setting). The style tends to drown out the melody if everything thing is at 100%default. So happy I found  it ,as I prefer not to have to pound on the keys, I was worried I'd do my fingers in, haha.
Personally I didn't have any problems adapting from my Kawai es920.
Andrews experience is very unfortunate.

[ton37]

Hey Bogdan :

I understand your point of view but we all have to accept some people, who bought the new PA5X as of July 2022, ( apparently ) are disappointed.
When they are explaining here why they are disappointed, it is very understandable most potetential buyers are influenced by the reactions of those who have expercienced these PAX5's shortcomings.

The PA5X is an expensive high end arranger and in the beginning most of us had high expectations of the PA5X, right ?

It must have been a sour pill for them if the expectations have not been met.
In their eyes Korg have made a big mistake by launching a high end arranger that showed many defects.

Can one blame these people they have shared their dissatisfaction and disappointment in this Forum ( and possibly somewhere else )  ?

Best regards, JH

It is the way 'how' to react, just some kind of agressive oneliners don't help a discussion ..

[Jeff Hollande]

It is the way 'how' to react, just some kind of agressive oneliners don't help a discussion ..

Their reactions are purely emotional to show their sympathy.

JH

[keynote]

Don't feel bad, Andrew. I posted a comment on YouTube regarding Korg's Nautilus keyboard, where I critiqued Korg for not having aftertouch on what is apparently the Kronos successor. Of course, the Kronos had aftertouch, so one would assume the Kronos successor would also include aftertouch since we're speaking about a high-end keyboard. Now, to be fair, I'm not positive the Nautilus is in fact the Kronos successor but Korg won't confirm or deny it so there you go. Anyway, Korg deleted my comment, I guess because it hit too close to home. Perhaps Korg will release a true Kronos replacement at NAMM? We'll see.

Btw, the Yamaha CP88 has received some complaints from expert pianists that the action (and sound) is actually a step backward compared to the Yamaha CP4 stage piano. It's always best to play a keyboard in person, hand's on, to make sure it will suit your needs. One of the reasons I chose the Genos was the action was quite acceptable compared to many other lower-end Yamaha arrangers. I previously owned a Roland Fantom-G7 (76 key) which had a great key action, so I wanted something similar and the Genos did not disappoint, even though it has a slightly lighter touch. Whatever you end up getting, enjoy what you play, arranger or otherwise. 🎹

All the best, Mike

[rikkisbears]

Hey Bogdan :

I understand your point of view but we all have to accept some people, who bought the new PA5X as of July 2022, ( apparently ) are disappointed.

unfortunately,  it is my understanding early buyers bought without an operating manual. There was talk that it was a new operating system. 
I for one , if I was dependant on a keyboard for a living , wouldn't sell my current keyboard to buy one with a new operating system, and I'm only a hobbyist.
I didn't buy mine till the full manual was available for download , and I didn't sell my Kawai es920 piano till I was sure I could connect my PA5x to sx900 via midi.(  I just use the sx900 as an arranger module.) Bit trickier to setup initially, than Kawai es920/sx900 setup , but works fine.
The PA5x has the functions that are written in the manual, nothing more, nothing less.  There are still some bugs in the system that they should have addressed in the last update. I've found personal workarounds for all of the ones that affect me.
There are a number of functions that they are going to add back in next update
( supposedly may/June).
If anybody asks about buying one, I normally suggest they wait till after next update, (unless any bugs & the missing functions are something that won't affect them) and check the manual.
Not everyone uses all the functions of the korgs. Pa4x is a workstation, with sampling, full event list editing  of even factory styles. Sound editing etc etc . Didn't need a pc for anything. Don't think many if any of my friends sampled, recorded styles, created sounds.
People who've never owned a Korg wouldn't notice it doesn't currently have some of functions of the prior korgs.
When buying an arranger or any type of keyboard or equipment,one should do their
homework .
When I was looking for a pair of monitor speakers for my sx900, I must have driven poor Bogdan  ( and some others) nuts, with all the questions. Something I didn't know anything about, I wanted to try and make an informed choice ( and thanks guys, they worked out well).  Had I just browsed thru an online store , I'll take these, and I ended up picking up something totally unsuitable, that would have been my fault if I picked something that would be too loud for an auditorium , let alone a  for a 10ft x10ft bedroom.
All sorts of misconceptions around. I for instance ( must have been something i read) thought that the styles on the PA5x were just rehashed Pa4x styles ie edited to use the new fx function, plus maybe they added a couple of dozen new ones . Wrong, they left out over 100 of the Pa4x and added something like 180 new ones. Still sorting thru duplicates just to make sure
At least I didn't have to sort thru 5000 styles like I did for the Sx900  looking for duplicates,😀 haha

For me personally,no regrets.  It's awful for those that it hasn't worked out for. Too many don't seem to be selling though. Hardware issue would worry me more than a software issue. Best of both worlds with my PA5x/sx900😀

[Amwilburn]

Thanks Mark for taking the time to comment.

That explains the quality of the CVP for sure.

I will try to find a CP88 to try. I may end up getting one in addition to a MP11se (or MP12 IF there is a follow up soon) regardless since those don't fit in the studio desk drawer I have and are too heavy for that also.

I know about the plastic Kawai keybed in the Nord Grand. There was definitely a difference compared to the ES920 though. I can only describe it as some type of additional mechanical "knock"  once a key hits the bottom of the keybed. Not absolutely horrendous or unplayable (still better than the Fatar keybeds) but just not natural I thought. Very strange in fact. Possibly like you are playing an old piano or so?

Interestingly I forgot to mention I also tried an old CVP409 that was on display. It seemed very good actually keybed wise. It caught my attention more than the 809!

Oh, yeah, a lot of keyboards, especially plastic keys, (and especially Nords) end up getting that annoying knock. it's because they key felts have disintegrated, and Nord having such a tight action, you're literally knocking metal against metal at that point. That actually eventually happens to all plastic key actions, one of the reasons I can't go back to plastic weighted keys (only wooden keys for me now!)

And I can tell you from the number of customer's who've had this issue, it happens across all brands, but especially Nord (not a quality issue, it's because the internal spacing is so tight). And because it's so tight? replacing the felts costs a *lot* more than other brands (not joking anywhere from 2 to 5 times the price of replacing say a Clavinova key felts). Had a customer with a Nord Piano 3, the knocking started 2.5 years in, it was a 3 year warranty, but it turns out Nord (and in fact, most manufacturers) don't consider that sort of wear and tear 'warranty', so he had to cough up $1100 to replace the entire keybed... and that was 5 years ago, and repair prices have skyrocketed since. 20 years ago, replacing a Clavinova key felt strip was $50 labour and $50 parts. Now labour (if out of warranty) could be anywhere from $200 to $700.


Mark

[rikkisbears]

There was definitely a difference compared to the ES920 though. I can only describe it as some type of additional mechanical "knock"  once a key hits the bottom of the keybed.

Hi , could you have been hearing the hammer noise or the fallback noise? or was it definitely mechanical. Es920 has noises that get added , (I suppose for realism.)  If they're the noise you're hearing , they're adjustable. 

[Jeff Hollande]

Hey Rikki :

Thank you so much for your reply.
Let us hope Korg are able to fix all problems.

Best wishes, JH

[jwyvern]

Hi , could you have been hearing the hammer noise or the fallback noise? or was it definitely mechanical. Es920 has noises that get added , (I suppose for realism.)  If they're the noise you're hearing , they're adjustable.

Some suppliers seem to like the idea of adding noises to Keybeds. Ironically on the PA5 the Austrian Grand piano is layered by default with a "Voice" called Austrian Grand RX which if turned up can change the 76 silent keybed into a "noisy 88" (plus damper pedal noises). OTOH if the keybed is already an 88 it may be redundant!
John

[DerekA]

Did you watch the video the OP posted?

That's not meant to happen, I'm 100% sure ....

[ton37]

Some suppliers seem to like the idea of adding noises to Keybeds. Ironically on the PA5 the Austrian Grand piano is layered by default with a "Voice" called Austrian Grand RX which if turned up can change the 76 silent keybed into a "noisy 88" (plus damper pedal noises). OTOH if the keybed is already an 88 it may be redundant!
John

Oh boy, so the waiting is: new keyboards with broken  and smoky yellow keys, cracking wood and are named: Korg Vintage Special Edition.  🤔😃

[rikkisbears]

Some suppliers seem to like the idea of adding noises to Keybeds. Ironically on the PA5 the Austrian Grand piano is layered by default with a "Voice" called Austrian Grand RX which if turned up can change the 76 silent keybed into a "noisy 88" (plus damper pedal noises). OTOH if the keybed is already an 88 it may be redundant!
John

Not a fan of those clicks and thumps , I turned them down on the es920,  I normally switch the rx Austrian voice off, prefer without, again can be turned down.

I don't have to thump my PA5x piano keys so that I can hear melody voices over the styles backing, I just use the setting that turns the style backing down by a nice even percentage. Unfortunately some owners haven't found it,  it's a new setting so unfortunately  many not aware of it. Found something similar on sx900😀. I'm careful with my sx900 also, been reports of faulty keybeds,  mines fine, but I rarely use it, I used my es920 as controller, now my PA5x

Anybody remember Clacky Keys post
https://www.psrtutorial.com/forum/index.php/topic,55343.msg441941.html#msg441941

[tyrosman]

I appreciate constructive criticism or opinion, where I expect it to be supported by some evidence (either from personal experience or from elsewhere). That way we can learn something and hopefully make better decisions.
But I don't see that in these posts, where the only intention is, to bash a product/brand -which is kinda immature.

Bogdan

ive heard it and Played it and didnt like it