Genos or CVP 809 ?

[rphillipchuk]

Hi

This question is directed to the lucky Users who have both the Genos and the CVP 809..

Yamaha has said that the Genos is in the CVP 809.   If I purchase the 809, will I get the full functionality of a Genos ( Style editing, Pads, importing Styles , etc...) but with the advantage of a 88 weighted keys.

That is, everything that you can do on a Genos, you can do on the 809.

Thanks in advance

Ron

[Jeff Hollande]

Hi Ron :

The CVP has no multipads.

Best wishes, JH

[Amwilburn]

They are the same chipset (sound library) but they're not quite identical:

CVP has no multipads or sample area to download new sounds in. CVP only has a 4gb hard drive vs Genos' 58gb. CVP has no XLR mic input (so no condenser mics). CVP only has 2 right sound layers vs on the Genos.
On the other hand, CVP has full wooden keys with counterweights, 3 analog pedals., an absolutely mind blowing 7 way speaker system with built in sub, a beautiful furniture cabinet,  in-home warranty, and bluetooth audio in. And a really smooth sounding Bosendorfer that hasn't shown up as a downloadable option for Genos.

I mean, I'd be happy with either, but which is right for you? If you want to explore more international sound samples (or create your own) I'd go for the Genos; if you want a gorgeous all in one package, and not have to worry about what speakers, stands, and pedals to purchase, then the CVP.

Why not both? Yes, you're duplicating sound libraries, but the Genos can be your gigging board, the CVP the living room showpiece at home

Mark

[Toril S]

I agree Mark. But they are both expensive instruments!

[jwyvern]

They are the same chipset (sound library) but they're not quite identical:

CVP has no multipads or sample area to download new sounds in. CVP only has a 4gb hard drive vs Genos' 58gb. CVP has no XLR mic input (so no condenser mics). CVP only has 2 right sound layers vs on the Genos.
On the other hand, CVP has full wooden keys with counterweights, 3 analog pedals., an absolutely mind blowing 7 way speaker system with built in sub, a beautiful furniture cabinet,  in-home warranty, and bluetooth audio in. And a really smooth sounding Bosendorfer that hasn't shown up as a downloadable option for Genos.


Mark

Hi MARK,
Does the CVP have AFTERTOUCH nowadays?
John

[Amwilburn]

Hi MARK,
Does the CVP have AFTERTOUCH nowadays?
John

unfortunately not. The T2 was the 1st one where I noticed you could do individual string vibrato on the guitars; kept trying to wiggle the CVP keys to no avail, lol

[stephenm52]

I have a Genos and and old CVP307.  At this point in life where I'm strictly doing a piano solo gig once per week I'd go for the CVP809.  No matter what it sounds like you'll have to make a list of features that you need vs. those you don't.  It won't necessarily be a cut and dry choice.  Good luck and keep us posted on what you decide.

[davidg]

Hi Ron,

I changed over from the Genos to a CVP805 about a year ago, primarily because as a piano player (of sorts) I could not get on with the Genos keybed.  After switching I initially found the CVP keybed a little hard, even in comparison to other weighted ones, but you eventually get used to it.  I think the CVP809 has a slightly better and lighter weighted keybed if I remember the reviews correctly.

I had the Genos paired with a couple of Yamaha HS5 speakers and in comparison to these, the CVP of sound quality was appreciably deeper and richer.    Again, the CVP809 is a step up here from the CVP805.

I think the other posts have dealt with most of the technical differences so I will not go through those.  One thing I did miss (initially) was that the Genos could let you layer three right hand voices voices whereas the CVP allows only two.  Even so, the CVP has some combination voices (as a single voice) such as piano and orchestra, so the loss of a single split layer was not too problematic.

The operating system user interface of the CVP and the Genos are almost the same on the touch screen.  The CVP does of course have the piano room which best be described as a quick access suite of settings for piano playing only with a selection of styles.

Do I regret, changing the Genos ?  No not really.  Occasionally I come across something and think I could have done better on the Genos, but on the whole the CVP805 is a fabulous instrument and the CVP809 will be a step up from that.

Finally, the CVP is a good looking piece of furniture.  The room looks a lot better without the desk, separate speakers and cables.  Judge for yourself. [Hope the attachment photo was made !]

Regards,

David


[attachment deleted by admin]

[mikf]

Yes, getting rid of the "tech lab" look was a big driver for me. I have a big house and a separate man room, so it was never in my drawing room, - I have a grand piano in there. But I already had added controller keyboard (digital piano) to get 88 key and better piano sound. And external speakers, foot pedals and mixers, So there were wires and connections everywhere. And every time someone vacuumed the room something got disconnected, and it seemed I was always crawling about trying to get everything back operating. My wife was nagging me to change to the CVP and improve the look. So I did.
The CVP may not duplicate every Genos feature, but does most things I need from an arranger, and looks better. It's not portable, but that doesn't matter to me. No way will I go back to a set of separates, new Genos or not.
Mike

[Graham UK]

I fully understand about this article because after many years with PSR's Tyros & SX.
I now play the DGX670 which apart from it's could have been better menu system, has a nice to play key-bed and great value for the money £799.

[RoyB]

I'm in a similar situation that Mike was - in my case, Tyros + 88key FA08 to play better piano. In a couple of years, I will be looking to consolidate to one 88key 'arranger-type' keyboard for the reasons that Mike said.

It has been suggested that there could be an 88-key version of the Genos2. If this turns out to be true, then I will be in the market for it, as long at it is priced sensibly and the keybed is a decent quality weighted action with selectable weighting.

I'm put off the CVP809 instead of a Genos2 mainly because of (1) the big price difference compared to the Genos; (2) no multipads; and (3) it will be a generation behind a Genos2 - I would need to wait for a new CVP(909?) to get Genos2 features.

[mikf]

When I bought the last CVP (I have two) the 700 series had just come out. I tested the 709 and 705 in the showroom. The price difference was large, but I really didn't find that much difference in the playing, and I am a very experienced piano player. I have a couple of top of the line grand pianos, and to be honest even the 709 came nowhere close to the keyboard feel of either Of those. So I bought the 705 and have never regretted that decision.
If you can find a good quality used 705 you would get a great looking and fun keyboard for a lot less than the new 809.
Mike

[travlin-easy]

I only performed with a CVP one time in my 30 years on stage as a musical entertainer. It was a fantastic instrument, but obviously, not portable.

Additionally, after just a single hour or performing, those fully weighted keys took their toll on my hand and finger joints to the point where it became very painful to continue. Because I was filling in for a friend, I continued to perform for the 3 hours he contracted for, then went back to my motel and soaked my hands in hot water for several hours in order to relieve the pain.

I just looked up the price of a CVP-809 at Sweetwater and it cost as much as 3 Genos arranger keyboards, but does not have all the features of a Genos, or the versatility. If I were in your shoes, I would stick with the Genos.

Good luck, on whatever you decide upon,

Gary 

[Amwilburn]

I'm in a similar situation that Mike was - in my case, Tyros + 88key FA08 to play better piano. In a couple of years, I will be looking to consolidate to one 88key 'arranger-type' keyboard for the reasons that Mike said.

It has been suggested that there could be an 88-key version of the Genos2. If this turns out to be true, then I will be in the market for it, as long at it is priced sensibly and the keybed is a decent quality weighted action with selectable weighting.

I'm put off the CVP809 instead of a Genos2 mainly because of (1) the big price difference compared to the Genos; (2) no multipads; and (3) it will be a generation behind a Genos2 - I would need to wait for a new CVP(909?) to get Genos2 features.

Not quite. They don't add the features in a later generation; for example, the T5 and the CVP709 share the same chipset/sound lirbary as well; and if you had been waiting for the CVP809 to include the TYros 5 features (multipads, sampling, 500gb hard drive), well that didn't happen with the 809. And likewise the Tyros 4/CVP609 before that (the 709 didn't add those features either).

But maybe someday they'll add the 3 right hand sound layers, but keep in mind the 3 sound layers has been around since at least Tyros 1 / CVP309 (same sound chip, CVP309 actually came out later, but still only 2 sound layers). It's been so long since I've had a PSR9000 in front of me, I can't remember if it had 3 sound layers (it had sampling! with floppy disks!)

Then again, PSR's only had 2 sound layers until the sx900, and now they have 3 as well.

The point is, based on their past record, the CVP909 *will* be based on the Genos 2, not the 1. It may have 2 sound layers, it may have 3.

Mark

[mikf]

I think what you need to realize is that although they share many similar features the concept is fundamentally different. A CVP is aimed at piano players who want to have access to voices and accompaniment, and the look of a piece of furniture. If that is your primary need then the CVP is for you.
But if you want all the deep and latest workstation features and portability of an arranger, then Genos may be for you. You need to make that decision, but I don't think many people buy a CVP and then wish they had bought an arranger because of a few missing, but maybe little used, features. In my own case, any features I wish were on the CVP - and it's not many - don't exist on the Genos either. Like smooth voice changing or final mixing.
As for keyboard feel, I am of Gary, I dislike the lack of feel on typical light arranger keyboards. It's about what you get used to.
Mike

[travlin-easy]

Mike, I played a piano when I was very young and after a few months, I was OK with the weighted keys. I was not very good at it, but I still practiced and played every day.

When I began playing for a living, which was more than 30 years ago, I first tried using a piano to go with my vocals. I performed in piano bars, some nite clubs and upscale restaurants. They all had their own pianos, many of which were out of tune to some degree, and the very first thing I noticed was the audiences were really not paying attention to the entertainer or the music. They sat at their tables, drinking lots of booze, eating overpriced meals, but the music singing was not getting their attention. After months of trying to determine what I was doing wrong, I had the opportunity to hear a duo called Carlos and Santos performing at a local restaurant. Carlos played both guitar and a PSR500, while Santos played a guitar and sax. They sounded great, the dance floor was constantly packed, and they performed mainly 50s and 60s music. The PSR500 was the star of the show, though, mainly because of the great styles that fit those song so perfectly. Carlos usually played his own intros. Both players were good singers as well, which only added to their performances.

When they took a 5 minute break, I got up talked with both gentlemen and got some very good answers to my many questions about their on stage rigs and performances. They were a great help way back then, but Santos has long since passed away and I lost contact with Carlos when he moved to another state.

When I first tried playing the PSR500, that at the time cost exactly $500 at MARS, I found myself pounding on the keys and in no time at all, destroyed several of the upper keypads. It didn't take me very long to determine that you didn't need to hammer those keys like I was when playing the piano, yet I still got most of the same effects out of the instrument. It was then that I began exploring the many, many styles available from both Yamaha and several 3rd party suppliers - WOW! This was exactly the sounds that I was looking for, and for a change, the timing was perfect, I was able to transpose to the singing chords I was comfortable with, there were some great intros and endings, excellent fills and breaks, none of which were available on a piano. Within weeks, the phone was ringing off the hook, my bookings skyrocketed, and I quickly noticed that after a 4-hour performance, with just 5 minute breaks per hour, my hands no longer hurt. Several arranger keyboards later, almost all Yamaha, a couple Korgs and other brands, I was in 7th Heaven.

Now, for those members that are not full time, on-stage performer/entertainer/vocalist, fully weighted keys will not be a problem. You can stop playing when your fingers get stiff, stop singing when your throat becomes sore, etc... Those members that ARE full-time on-stage performer/entertainer/vocalist know exactly what I am talking about. We are and were on that stage 7 days a week, 365 days a year, every holiday, playing to audiences that wanted to be entertained my the music and spend time on the dance floor. They were not all great dancers, some were ballroom dancers, while others had just a few steps, but the music from an arranger keyboard got them out of the seats, onto the dance floor and more often than not, you could see them singing the songs along with you. That never happened when I was playing piano.

So, now you know why I prefer an arranger keyboard, with those light touch keys and fantastic features over a CVP or any other kind of weighted key instrument.

Sorry for the rant,

Gary 

[mikf]

Yes, I fully get it Gary. When I had a small band I used electronic keyboards - not an arranger, they hadn't been invented. They all had unweighted keys, more like accordion or organ.
But I have been playing piano since I was 7 years old, so my fingers are well used to daily piano playing, and or hours in pubs etc.  Never been an issue. When I played gigs almost every day, I did sometimes find that my arms got tired, no matter what kind of keyboard, but never my fingers.
Also interesting what you say about what people prefer, because I have had situations where exactly the opposite was true, people preferred the piano playing much more. I think its more about the location. In a pub or where there is a dance floor, they want a party like atmosphere and vocal/ arranger is perfect for that. It's more like a simulated full band. But in a sophisticated hotel or in care homes, I found people loved the nice relaxing sound of the piano.
Last time I was in a care home visiting someone, I played their grand piano and the residents loved it because they said it was such a refreshing change from the typical amplified music, often guitar singer,  that they normally get nowadays. They were desperate to get me back, but I really don't do gigs anymore.
In my home, or in someone else's house, there is almost no contest. If they have a piano and you can sit down and play, you're a star. They are always amazed if you are better than they expect. I don't think they ever ask for the arranger to be played.
In my house here in the USA I have a really nice Yamaha Grand. But in my place in Scotland I have a hand built Shigeru, one of the best pianos in the world, and it sounds and feels fantastic to play and makes me wish I was a better player.
So there is room for all sorts, horses for courses.
Mike

[travlin-easy]

I agree with much of what you posted, Mike. There were locations where I performed that only wanted background music, primarily piano sounds, so they could hold quiet conversations while eating a vastly overpriced meal. One location, where I only got to perform 4 times, was an Italian Restaurant in Baltimore's Little Italy. The average meal for 4 there cost about $500, plus a tip of another $100 (20%).

It was the only job  I ever auditioned for and I was hired by the owners wife because I could sing several songs in Italian. The restaurant had a lounge area that seated about 60 people, a small bar and a piano bar that surrounded two sides of a big Steinway Grand. The very first Friday night, I had about a dozen couples in the lounge and for the entire night, there were never more people there.

The following Friday, I had about 40 people waiting when I arrived and set up behind the Steinway. The night went well and I proceeded to perform my regular routing, but continued to mix things up with Italian songs as much as possible. It wasn't long before they brought in two more bar tenders and the room was packed to capacity with several individuals standing because there were no seats available.

The next Friday night had a packed lounge area before I arrived. I played a lot of Jimmy Buffett, some light rock, and all good dance music. The floor was packed with dancers, and no one seemed to leave. I even had a couple drunken airline stewardess' shove $20 dollar bills down my pants and leave their motel keys for me in the tip jar, which was filled to capacity. However, this was the first time I didn't see the owner during the entire night until closing time. He said "Gary, you are the best damned entertainer I have had here since this place opened. Unfortunately, this is your last night." When I asked what I did wrong, he said "You were too damned good. Everyone stayed in the lounge an drank $2 draft beers and ate free finger food, but they never came into the main restaurant, which how I make money." He told me that he only had a dozen tables filled in the restaurant section that easily held 150 people.

As you stated, different strokes for different folks.

All the best,

Gary 

[mikf]

Gary - when I played solo piano people were generally very complimentary. But when I accompanied a good singer with charisma and presence, they didn't even notice me as long as I made no mistakes.
Bottom line is that people love an entertainer with a great voice more than anything  - and you had a great voice.
Best wishes and hope your health is holding up.
Mike

[travlin-easy]

Mike, my health is shot to Hell. I just got home from 3 months of hospitalization and nursing home/physical rehab. I checked myself out of the nursing home/rehab center on my 60th wedding anniversary. We had a big party here at my home with about 25 guests and lots of good food to eat. The nursing home food was horrible to say the least and no one in the kitchen spoke or read English, therefore, what came up on the food tray was often things I could no longer eat. I now have a colostomy, have to undergo another surgical procedure to have it reversed, successfully I hope.

In addition to my deteriorating lung condition, I continue to suffer from distal neuropathy on both my hands, arms, legs and feet and can barely walk. However, I am fighting as hard as I can to get myself in shape for the upcoming surgery, which is about a 2-hour procedure. If I manage to survive the anesthesia, which is difficult with my lungs, I intend to come straight home and avoid an additional, lengthy hospital stay.

Mike, I truly appreciate all the assistance you have provided to this forum and the honest and sound answers you have provided for some pretty tough questions from various members that never seem to open their user manuals.

Thanks again,

Gary

[pjd]

Hi Gary --

Thank you so much for all of the help that you've given people, here and on the Synthzone forum. We're all pulling for you and wish you the best!

-- pj

[stephenm52]

Gary,  It was great to speak with you today, you're not only a great asset to this forum and others but you are a fighter! My wife and I wish you and Carol the best in the coming weeks.  Tell Laura I send my thanks too for taking such good care of you and Carol.

[travlin-easy]

Thanks guys, I'm on my way to the recumbent bike to do a 27 minute workout while watching some old western movies on the big screen TV. I know all of you older members will remember James Arness as Matt Dillon. Ironically, I watch it daily now and there are lots of episodes that I never saw in the past, and I was a big fan. Guess I spent too much time chasing Carol.

All the best,

Gary 

[mikf]

But you did catch her, so that's ok. But maybe she wishes you spent more time watching Matt Dillon.