New TOTL Arranger from Ketron

[Lee Batchelor]

It is also a public secret Peter B will receive the newest Yamaha high end arranger in June, July 2023 and will show it to the public at the end of 2023.   
As usual he needs approx. 3 months to find out all ins and outs ( even the weaknesses ! ) of the newest Yamaha arranger.

Hi Jeff. This is interesting and suggests that we could see a Genos 2 by late fall. How accurate do you think this idea is? Where did you hear this? Thanks...

[EileenL]

If there is going to be a new launch it is usually shown at Glyn Maddens Yearly big Yamaha meeting where Martin Harris amongst other Yamaha demonstrators entertain us. 

[Danny1972]

Hey Jeff,

Sure I don't mind answering you questions but I will try and keep it brief as not to bore people!

"You have a lot arranger keyboards of most well known brands.
About more than 20 models, am I right ?
Are all of them arrangers?"

All are arrangers and are from most of the top brands, past and present. I can list them if you really want. In total it's about 20 or so but some I have lent out to my dad.

Are you a collector ( hobby ) or are you buying and selling them too ?

I am kind of a collector and it's mainly a hobby. I used to be really heavily into gaming and spent fortunes on games and consoles/handhelds but during the first lockdown which was when my keyboard collecting really started I found spending more time playing music much more rewarding than gaming and since then it's almost completely overtaken it as my only hobby I'd spend money on. I saw quite a few older models for sale, at good prices too, ones that I either completely missed out on in the past but really wanted to experience, or wanted back ones that I regretted selling, so the combination of the two ended up with these many keyboards! I don't plan in getting anymore until Yamaha's new arranger.

"What is your favourite brand, model and why ?
Are you playing daily ?"

This is difficult to answer because when having more than one of the flagships the opinion could change even daily! I can say that at the moment out of the Genos, Pa5x and Event I am using the Pa5x a little more but that's mainly because I am creating a songbook for all the songs I play which I hadn't got round to doing yet. I have already done this on the Genos. Again, it will take a whole new reply/topic to go through what I prefer on each of the three but I do have preferences about certain things on each one. I play almost every day except for when I work late, in which today is one of them unfortunately.

In the end I will eventually narrow them right down. I have 4 children who have expressed an interest in learning so I have reserved 4 models aside for them if they are serious about learning. Same goes for my sisters as well. I've already given my dad a few to use until he's sure which one's he wants to mainly use. So it's worked out well, I get to experience keyboards I've missed out and can then pass them onto family members if need be. I don't tend to sell unless I trade towards getting a new model, so for example depending on how the next Yamaha will turn out will depend what I do with the Genos, keep it, trade towards it, who knows!

Hope this answers the questions for you and wasn't too boring!!



 

[Oxford1035]

It is also a public secret Peter B will receive the newest Yamaha high end arranger in June, July 2023 and will show it to the public at the end of 2023.   
As usual he needs approx. 3 months to find out all ins and outs ( even the weaknesses ! ) of the newest Yamaha arranger.


l read somewhere that Peter has already been booked to perform around November time, which would tie in with the UK Yamaha event being held at the end of November. Glyn Madden replied to a readers post in the Yamaha club magazine that he thought we'd be in for a surprise at the event, and as Glyn has strong Yamaha ties l think we will indeed see a new TOTL in November, especially as by then it will be 6 years since the Genos was released.

Russ

[Oxford1035]

Hi Jeff. This is interesting and suggests that we could see a Genos 2 by late fall. How accurate do you think this idea is? Where did you hear this? Thanks...

Lee, see my reply to Jeff

Russ


Edit 2023-05-07 by overover: Added missing quote tag

[Lee Batchelor]

Thanks Jeff and Russ. That's interesting news. Let's hope it's true!

[john smies]

While you guys are getting your knickers in a twist about the " Coming of Genos 2"  I would like to             refer you guys to the comments by Sokratis1974 , see following link and scroll down to his entry ( or read the full thread, most enlightning I think....).
To the best of my knowledge "Abacus" is from the UK and probably known here as he has a prediliction for Yamaha arrangers. His comments are rather absurd to put it mildly but as I mention the detailed reply by Sokrates speaks volumes !!!

http://www.synthzone.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/508217/VERY_good_Event_demos#Post508217

And while we are at it and after all this thread was started about the arrival of the new Ketron keyboard let me add what I mentioned on the Korg forum as well:

"... As you know I have been a staunch advocate of Korg arrangers and played on those for nigh on 20 years. I recently gave my old PA50sd away to our son and currently only own the new Ketron Event. Your comment (Worth) is correct and points to the one weakness that ketron will have to surmount to make this work and I have faith they will. I am referring to the "latency issue "....
Beyond that there are minor issues ( but look at the PA5X ) and personally I would wish ( and hope) there will be more new styles with Real Chords included. Also there should be a better market for new samples as its capacity to hold new samples is adequate.That having been said, most samples of natural instruments such as piano, accordeon, sax, violin, etc.etc. vary from "very good " to "excellent "and leave little to be desired . Even the pad and synths sounds carry a wide range of programmable sounds and unless you are deep into synthsounds etc. (for which you should add a workstation really) they are amply sufficient. I am not going to enter in a discussion whether the new Ketron is better or not than Yamaha and Korg. All I can say is that it is very innovative and challenging. And its form of realism is almost eerie. I mean if you are a vocalist and would want to imagine being backed by a real band , this one does the trick or comes closest imho.

Another issue raised by Englishman Abacus in the thread I mentioned yet again fails to hit the nail on the head completely. ( as does most of his comments). If for whatever reasons you set great store by reproducing a popsong in its original arrangement and as close to it as possible , you need songstyles then the best imho is Yamaha. ( of course you could also order a good backing tape or karaoke file and do the same, haha !!)

[Danny1972]

John,

Thanks for sharing the response from Sokratis1974, it's a very well written and articulated reply from him and I agree with him entirely.

It is interesting though that Yamaha did attempt to go the Audio route but obviously changed their mind and would really like to know the official reason from them rather than our assumptions as to why.

This may sound a little controversial, but even Yamaha's audio styles don't come anywhere near as realistic as the Ketron's are and I really wanted to know why this was. It could be that the actual style's themselves that Yamaha used weren't always great to start with as a lot of them were from existing Midi versions of the style, that could be a reason but some were very good too such as the Cha Cha's, but still nowhere near Ketron as they still sounded CD like rather than live sounding. Of course it's just my own opinion and how I hear it when putting them side by side (eg, the Event along side the T5 or S975).

[Lee Batchelor]

I found the biggest problem with Yamaha audio styles was the inability to edit them. They were very amateurish as well. They either need to go big with this concept or go home.

[Danny1972]

I found the biggest problem with Yamaha audio styles was the inability to edit them. They were very amateurish as well. They either need to go big with this concept or go home.

That's a good way of putting it, and I think it indeed was because Yamaha seemed half hearted and added them in as a gesture rather than being serious about them because I'm sure they could have made them absolutely brilliant if wanting to go all out, which is why I said they didn't compare too well. I did also find it odd that Yamaha selected some quite average styles to use to showcase them, and as you say, you couldn't edit them, you couldn't even copy them into a user space as they were read only. Ketron does allow you to copy the audio styles for editing so it could have been done. It's a long shot but it would be good if Yamaha revisited this again although maybe most Yamaha users wouldn't want that.

[john smies]

Hi Danny, Jeff,

Yes the contributions of Sokrates1974 are highly appreciated, he does know what he is talking about. I guess there is not much point in repeating myself all over again. There are NO poor top arranger keyboards. All three of them are basically stunning, each of them having its own merits and faults. Once again it comes down wether you are a live performer or not, whether you are a singer or not and whether you set great store by reproducing a popsong in its original arrangement or prefer making your own arrangments. ( generic versus song  styles......)

Incidentally, Ketron has just released a massive O.S. update for the Ketron Event, the second update in three months time. I guess Korg PA5X players would wish they could say the same for their arranger......

greeetings,
John

[Danny1972]

Incidentally, Ketron has just released a massive O.S. update for the Ketron Event, the second update in three months time. I guess Korg PA5X players would wish they could say the same for their arranger......

greeetings,
John

Thank you John, saw the notification from Ketron just now, I am going to update it later after work!

Yes, would be nice if Korg did the same so I can update my Pa5x as well!

PS, John do you know what the Event update includes? Any new styles as I heard there were going to be some new styles available soon as there was a demo of them recently.

[EileenL]

Of course Genos styles can be edited like all other Yamaha keyboards. Have been doing it for years.

[john smies]

Danny,
You beat me to it.....

As to this new O.S. update for the Ketron Event, I would like to share with you here the findings of an Italian musician who for months has been trying to flog his brand new Ketron Event because he was not satisfied with it. (Note this is a computer translation of the original text)  :

"....Finally I am happy with the fact that  ketron has updated the operating system, now I can say that at last WE HAVE A GREAT ARRANGER. I've been trying Event since 4 p.m. It has been reborn in every way, the operating system is excellent, it doesn't "make a crease"( ??), it sounds great, implemented and facilitated essential live functions, it sounds great, perfect styles, drums, nothing to say about it, and I say this quite frankly, they have miraculously changed the keyboard, I haven't found any more defects, I repeat, seven hours of tests, squeezed in all the essentials, it goes magnificently well, in spite of the envious and those who insinuated that my keyboard wasn't good. Congratulations to Ketron, finally the right redemption and the right prize for those who have spent so much money, now we can speak of an arranger without competition and without denial, perhaps the best at the moment for quality and ease of execution. Before we were in limbo now we are in paradise....."

I guess a fair number of Korg PA5x players will be quite envious of this progress....
As to the Yamaha players I would expect it does not change a thing. They will confidently and tenaciously be awaitng the Second Coming of.......  !!!

greetings,
John Smies

[Sokratis1974]

Dear John Smies Thank you very much for promoting my comment from Synthzone.
Danny1972 & Jeff thank you too for your kind words. So I would like to comment on the following:
I have learned when I talk about something, (let alone when I talk about music technology and especially about the Arranger Keyboards that I love), to say things that I know well and especially have experience in them.
I will never talk about something I don't know, so in this case (in Synthzone) I responded to the friend because he said some things that I thought were baseless. I also had to say something about Audio Styles because a (myth) has prevailed around them. In fact, I intend to make a video about this topic so that I can try to put some order into it.

Dear Colas Musique (Christian) I don't know which Post you are referring to about Edit in Genos Preset Style.
So since I have talked about this in a previous post, I would like to say that (at least I) of course I was not referring to modifications of the tempo type, voices as you mentioned but to something deeper.
I am referring to the fact that when we select a Preset Style in which we wish to make some modifications by recording some additional things, (in the Style Creator), then there is no option to record to the already existing Track (Bass, Chord, Pad, Phrase) because when we click on any Track and hold so that the red Record indicator lights up, then an option automatically appears telling you that the channel must be deleted in order to record something extra. And this is an indisputable fact and no one can dispute it because this is what is happening.
At least I was referring to this very bad limitation of Yamaha. And we should emphasize that this limitation only applies to Yamaha. No other company (Korg, Ketron) has this limitation. Of course, the company could make our lives easier here, if at least we could do this work through someone (daw – Cubase, Logic, Reaper, etc.) but unfortunately the work cannot be done right there either because Yamaha (unfortunately again) does not allow us (at least in some easy way) to create or edit separate versions (Maj, Min) in Intro/Ending, unlike (also here) with Korg & Ketron where someone can also create or modify a Preset Style very easily through Markers. So simple and unfortunately Yamaha is the only company that doesn't follow it.

Finally I would like to address Jeff's comment about whether I or anyone else is monitoring the Forums or groups in order to (report) Ketron.
The answer from my side is clear: YES.
But here we have to make something clear. My purpose is not to learn the problems (bugs, etc.) from the Forums or from the groups on Facebook because that is done by daily and diligent work on the instrument, but my purpose is mainly to be informed about something that I have not identified yet, as well as to collect user suggestions which could possibly be implemented, and believe me it all works very well, and the result is clear I think. Two OS Updates (yesterday's a big one) in the few months.
Regarding the new Styles that have already been promoted (coming soon video demo), I would like to say that these have already been launched for distribution, which the company will soon announce the distribution method. These Styles will include the one I created https://youtu.be/KWt1YMM_r3A

[BogdanH]

hi Christian,

...
I just read that the Genos Preset Styles cannot be edited or copied.
This is incorrect.
...

Changing tempo of preset style, or changing voice or volume of particular track, is not really style editing... I would call that adapting only. Editing style in true sense is changing key sequence (and key parameters) in particular tracks -and this can not be done with preset styles on Yamaha arrangers (at least not officially).

Bogdan

[BogdanH]

And I agree with you Jeff 
Yes, generally speaking, editing a style can mean anything about changing something in a style. However, when comparing capabilities of different keyboard brands/models, we shouldn't generalize things, because it can be misleading.

English is not my native language and so for me, terminology and semantic plays quite a big role in understanding. For example: many say they use "custom" style or voice, simply because they have changed some parameters -but for me, that's not custom voice or style. For me, custom means "handmade" (from scratch).

Bogdan

[Danny1972]

Hi Bogdan,

That's true what you said where customising could mean different things to users, for example, I would say that anything that is not identical to the factory style or sound has been customised however big or small the customisation or editing was because it has been changed to suit a specific requirement that the original form doesn't provide. Maybe it depends on the available options you have at your disposable on the keyboard itself that could determine what one would class true editing or not, I don't know, but for me anything that is not the same as the original is customised I think.

[BogdanH]

hi Danny,
So "anything that's not the same as original"... does that include increasing/decreasing voice volume for you?.. or for example, changing reverb from 10 to 15? Not that I'm arguing, but for me, things like that are only adjusting or adapting the voice (similar to changing style tempo).
Anyway, I'm not saying my way of thinking is the only right... it's just interesting how different we see things 

Greetings,
Bogdan

[Danny1972]

Hey Bogdan,

Yes I think it's probably true that users may class editing and customisation in different ways, but just how minor or substantial it was may not matter as long as it's different enough from the original. I don't think anybody's reasoning of what they'd consider something customised would be incorrect; as you rightly said everybody see's it differently. Maybe if something was edited extensively enough could be even classed as a brand new creation, certainly if it's created from scratch you could say it's brand new rather than customised maybe.

[Danny1972]

@ Bogdan & Danny :

Last but not least ...
If Yamaha are launching some of the " older styles " in their newest arranger keyboard, Yamaha are mostly " upgrading " these older styles due to the newest technology of that new arranger, correct ?

JH

Hello Jeff

I would say the styles would be reworked or tweaked. Not sure if that's the same thing as editing or upgrading if that's what you mean ? I suppose it could be. So many variables !

[usaraiya]

Just an update to my Event Return story.
I received my refund check from AJ 3 months after I returned the KB, after numerous emails. He was in Italy for 2 months! And no one could sign and send me a check until he returned to the US!
I returned the KB within 4 days of its arrival but I had to shell out a 20% re-stocking fee ($1000) and get paid 3  months later, but I am glad that I received my money, EVENTually!!(Sorry, I couldn't help that), a mixed happy ending.
Moral of the story: I look forward to the new Genos, whenever it is released, and Yamaha's excellent customer service in contrast, as I am sure that Yamaha would never treat a customer with such disdain!

Uday

[Danny1972]

Just an update to my Event Return story.
I received my refund check from AJ 3 months after I returned the KB, after numerous emails. He was in Italy for 2 months! And no one could sign and send me a check until he returned to the US!
I returned it within 4 days of its arrival but I had to shell out a 20% re-stocking fee ($1000) and get paid 3  months later, but I am glad that I received my money, EVENTually!!(Sorry, I couldn't help that), a mixed happy ending.
Moral of the story: I look forward to the new Genos, whenever it is released, and Yamaha's excellent customer service in contrast, as I am sure that Yamaha would never treat a customer with such disdain!

Uday

Sorry to hear of your unfortunate experience, this is why I always would buy from trusted retailers, and I guess for myself I have been lucky since I would never have bought an Event if Bonners in the UK weren't stocking them, I would have just done without. I feel very assured that should I need any support from Bonners they would respond with the highest regard to customer service, as do others such as ePianos, A&C Hamilton, Keysound and so on.

[Amwilburn]

Sorry to hear of your unfortunate experience, this is why I always would buy from trusted retailers, and I guess for myself I have been lucky since I would never have bought an Event if Bonners in the UK weren't stocking them, I would have just done without. I feel very assured that should I need any support from Bonners they would respond with the highest regard to customer service, as do others such as ePianos, A&C Hamilton, Keysound and so on.

Hi Danny,

again this is one of the differences in the NA experience vs Europe: There is only 1 Ketron dealer in the USA, and 1 in Canada. Which for me, means driving about 4600km* each way just to try one out. Or buy without trying, and deal with restocking *and* shipping fees.

*fun fact, if you were to drive from one coast of Canada to the other, it's almost 7000km. By comparison, driving from the northernmost tip of the UK to the southernmost is about 850km!

Mark

[Danny1972]

Hi Danny,

again this is one of the differences in the NA experience vs Europe: There is only 1 Ketron dealer in the USA, and 1 in Canada. Which for me, means driving about 4600km* each way just to try one out. Or buy without trying, and deal with restocking *and* shipping fees.

*fun fact, if you were to drive from one coast of Canada to the other, it's almost 7000km. By comparison, driving from the northernmost tip of the UK to the southernmost is about 850km!

Mark

Yes indeed, it certainly sounds tricky to get one in NA, and it was usually as tricky to get a Ketron instrument in the UK as well until a couple of reputable dealers decided to stock Events which I found surprising and as mentioned the only reason I got one. Buying a Ketron instrument in the past before the Event was tricky, it took a while for an SD7 to be delivered from Italy, I think it was 2 or 3 months I can't remember as it was about 4 years ago now. I had ordered it from Ketron UK which was the only place to get Ketrons from but they still had to order them from Italy and didn't seem to have them in stock, unlike Bonners I got mine the next day.

[Danny1972]

Their Event seems to be a nice high end arranger though but completely different ( maybe too complicated in use ? ) than
a Yamaha high end arranger.

Not necessarily. I have both and I find them at least equally easy to use where in some instances the Event is a bit easier.

[keynote]

Just an update to my Event Return story.
I received my refund check from AJ 3 months after I returned the KB, after numerous emails. He was in Italy for 2 months! And no one could sign and send me a check until he returned to the US!
I returned the KB within 4 days of its arrival but I had to shell out a 20% re-stocking fee ($1000) and get paid 3  months later, but I am glad that I received my money, EVENTually!!(Sorry, I couldn't help that), a mixed happy ending.
Moral of the story: I look forward to the new Genos, whenever it is released, and Yamaha's excellent customer service in contrast, as I am sure that Yamaha would never treat a customer with such disdain!

Uday

AJ may have used that $1,000 to take his trip to Italy? There is no excuse for charging such a ridiculous restocking free especially since Uday only had the Event for a few days, and I'm sure when he returned it, it was as good as new. Treating customers with such disdain is a very good reason not to buy Ketron products. I notice AJ posts quite a bit over at the SynthZone BBS, but he doesn't post here on PSR Tutorial that I'm aware of. Perhaps Synthzoners don't critique Ketron products as much and maybe more of the members there actually own Ketron products. The Event is a really nice high-end arranger, btw. But Yamaha and Roland (Korg, not so much) make a sincere effort to treat their customers and consumers in general much better, in my opinion. I've had a beef with Ketron over the years after the Audya came out. I usually don't mince words and try to tell it like it is, but I think the folks at Ketron took it personally. In fact, years ago Ketron blocked my IP address, so I couldn't access its website. Perhaps the CEO or previous CEO or one of the lead designers of the Audya was part of the Italian Mafia? Anyway, I digress. I like Italy. I like Giorgia Meloni the new Prime Minister of Italy. Furthermore, I like the Pope.    And if Ketron ever gets its act together, so its products are readily available and easily accessible here in the USA, and customer support is no longer woefully lacking, and they quit charging an arm and a leg if you return something, then I could potentially warm up to the idea of purchasing one of their products. The ball is in Ketron's court. 🎾

All the best, Mike

[Sokratis1974]

Hey Sokratis :

Is there a particular reason why the Event has no (multi)pads like Yamaha and Korg ?
Are there alternatives now or ... might there be ( secret ) plans (multi)pads will be installed in the near future  ?

Plse advise. Many thanks .
All the best,
JH

Hi Jeff.
I may be a partner in the company, but I'm not a designer, and I'm also not the one who makes the decisions about what an instrument will contain. I have certainly suggested features that the company accepted and implemented but nothing more. However there is an alternative scenario for MultiPad but since the engineers are still working on it I would not like to say more.

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Genos is due for Discontinued

I am sure Yamaha would announce it being discontinued.
Give Yamaha a ring on the phone and they stay tight lipped.
Something is going on for sure
Wait for the whisleblower

[Al Ram]

Discontinued does not mean much . . . . . still plays great .  . . .

thanks