New TOTL Arranger from Ketron

[Jeff Hollande]

When the two competitors announced their new toys I also wondered why there came no Yamaha answer sooner.

Nowadays I am more convinced there might be a serious reason why Yamaha didn't react sooner and ( even now ) say nothing at all.

IMHO they will launch a new high end arranger that will surprise the entire keyboard world.

This arranger might cost at least USD 5,500 I guess but will blow all competition out of the water for the next 5 years and ...at the end of 2024 they will announce a complete new SX serie.

That might be Yamaha's answer.
I wonder what will happen to Ketron and Korg ? 

JH

[AndrewKeyz]

I'm attempting to do a long video comparing 100 sounds on the PA5X vs Genos before the Korg goes back to the dealer.
For this it took a while to research which sounds are best compared.

I'm trying to be open minded and objective and forget about my problems with the Korg, but seriously soundwise I am stunned at the difference in most areas (base sounds, not multi layered keyboard set / one touch setting stuff) with the Genos sounding SO much better and far more articulation.

[soundphase]

You're probably both right, but I'm just wondering why Yamaha is also so quiet.

Yamaha is not so quiet. I looked at the electone ELA-1 (new) user's guide and older ELB/C/S-02 user's guide.s. It's clear for me electone and Genos lines are currently converging.

[kiplis]

Interesting theory, but to me it looks like a step backwards, if you look at the specs? ELA-1 is compared to PSR-SX600 on another site.

[BogdanH]

...
I'm trying to be open minded and objective and forget about my problems with the Korg...

-that's the only way for you to actually end up with better keyboard. I say "for you" because at the end, it will (probably) be subjective opinion... it's just the way it is.

The thing is, when we talk about sound (voice) quality, each of us uses different measures. For example, you mentioned articulation... yes, it gives an effect of "real player" for certain voices. This effect can be "cool" enough, so we don't notice that actual voice (sample) maybe isn't that good. And so we just say "this voice sounds great" -which doesn't necessary mean it sounds the same as real instrument.
In short: all piano voices on my keyboard sound like piano and they sound "good", but none of them sounds the same as real piano.

Bogdan

[BogdanH]

...ELA-1 is compared to PSR-SX600 on another site.

-I agree on that: it's an two-keybed SX600 with added pedals.

[Jeff Hollande]

Hey Bogdan :

Improving the sound quality of each individual instrument of an arranger will always be target #1 for all arranger manufacturers and a dream for all users but I am afraid not all instruments will ever sound like the original instrument.

I agree the sample technique can do miracles but not for all octaves, IMHO ... but ... who knows ?

Best wishes, JH

[BogdanH]

Agree with you Jeff.
It's always a compromise, because space (memory) has limited size... and everyone wish more (and even more) voices -it's a selling point actually.
In that sense, I don't think there's a problem for Yamaha to record 1st class samples (Yamaha sure have them!). It comes to answer the question, what do you want: 100 hi-quality voices or 500 good-enough voices? Your guess is right: keyboards with 500 voices will sell better.

Bogdan

[pjd]

3. Just put it on the market (limited number). Solve the problems while doing so. The first customers are then a kind of 'test subjects'. Unfortunately, that happens all too often these days.

All parties already knew about the world's problems, etc., when they were launched on the market. That risk was deliberately taken.

Well, there's an old saying in project management: features (scope), time and quality -- choose one.

Executives get impatient. Or they believe that the "early bird will get the worm" -- first to market wins.

If they don't want to cut features, well, guess what suffers? Quality. This isn't rocket science.     I've been there many times before (i.e., dancing with management) and I'm glad to be retired. 

All the best -- pj

[pjd]

It comes to answer the question, what do you want: 100 hi-quality voices or 500 good-enough voices? Your guess is right: keyboards with 500 voices will sell better.

This is a classic marketing trick. If someone cannot assess product quality, at least they can compare two numbers. The bigger number wins.

This trick is probably more in play at the entry-level, e.g., PSR E series, where most customers are not sophisticated or knowledgeable. Well, at least one hopes that premium-level customers are more discerning... 

-- pj

[soundphase]

-I agree on that: it's an two-keybed SX600 with added pedals.

That globally means that Yamaha continues to invest on the Genos arranger line as now it is common with electone evolutions.

[Dnj]

Reading all these opinions & the fact that it's been so long a wait I still think Yamaha will break away from traditional arranger keyboards from the past we all know too well & venture into a new design & focus direction that will surprise many of us. 

[Jeff Hollande]

Reading all these opinions & the fact that it's been so long a wait I still think Yamaha will break away from traditional arranger keyboards from the past we all know too well & venture into a new design & focus direction that will surprise many of us. 

Breaking away from the past might not be that easy ... blowing both competitors out of the water ... for sure. 

JH

[travlin-easy]

I agree, Jeff. Yamaha will likely continue to produce TOTL arranger keyboards for the foreseeable future, and I sincerely believe the upcoming keyboards will be along the same lines of those in the past. They have been extremely successful for a reason - they provide us with great products at a reasonable price, ones that we can all relate to.

This horse has been beat to death,

Gary

[AndrewKeyz]

I still think it's unlikely Yamaha would call it Genos 2 due to the confusion with the firmware update. So many people uploaded videos with Genos 2.0 to Youtube. Maybe they would call it Genos II or Genos+ if the update is rather minor, with what we've seen with the Modx.
Possibly use a brand new name like Helios or Yamaha Cosmos.  Perhaps indicating some groundbreaking infrastructure that can import every Yamaha sound ever, can create a style based on any song Wav/MP3 you feed it and easily be expanded?

[Jeff Hollande]

Hi Guys :

Korg launched their PA700 and PA1000 in 2017, am I right ?
For a couple of years now there is almost 0 demand ( in my country e.g. ) for new and second hand models due to Yamaha's success of their SX serie, I guess.
I wonder when Korg will introduce the 700 and 1000 successors ?
Their present PA5X's serious ( ? ) problems must have all priority, IMO.  

JH

[Jeff Hollande]

Possibly use a brand new name like Helios or Yamaha Cosmos. 

Yamaha Cosmos would be a good brand name ! I like it. 

JH

[kiplis]

Ketron Event in stock?

https://www.opushangszer.hu/ketron-event-szintetizator-9take

Around 5.500 Eur

[BogdanH]

Interesting.. because the rest of keyboard they offer is quite budget oriented. Anyway, price is very speculative 

Bogdan

[kiplis]

True, very expensive, especially if you are a "guinea pig" for production equipment.
(like apparently Korg Pa5x users)

-Kiplis-

[Bill]

This horse has been beat to death,

Gary

I have to agree with you Gary,  why some people believe in flogging a dead horse is beyond me, especially when they have no real interest in the technology and have zero intention of buying any new keyboard.
I suppose they are like my good wife, she never stops talking because she like the sound of her voice.  However she never actually say's anything that she has not already said a thousand times.

Bill

[ton37]

I have to agree with you Gary,  why some people believe in flogging a dead horse is beyond me, especially when they have no real interest in the technology and have zero intention of buying any new keyboard. I suppose they are like my good wife, she never stops talking because she like the sound of her voice.  However she never actually say's anything that she has not already said a thousand times.

Bill

Okay...., that's why you bought you a Genos (or any other brand should help too, with headphones mostly on) 

[Jeff Hollande]

Ketron Event in stock?

https://www.opushangszer.hu/ketron-event-szintetizator-9take

Around 5.500 Eur

Price : EURO 5,500,-- ?
A joke, right ?

JH

[keynote]

For our European friends, the German music retailer Thomann has the Event listed at $4,499, and in stock within 4-5 weeks.

https://www.thomannmusic.com/ketron_event.htm

The Hungarian website must have received its Event during the first Ketron shipment back in December 2022. The Next Ketron shipment will be sometime in March, according to AJ from Ketron USA. I think you can pre-order the Ketron Event at certain online stores. Hopefully they'll ship a lot more than they did the first time around, but don't hold your breath. Small outfit usually equals small output.   

Mike F

[Jeff Hollande]

Present price : Euro 4,200 also in Germany ...

JH

[kiplis]

Thomann price for Ketron Event in Europe is 4.999 €

https://www.thomann.de/de/ketron_event.htm?shp=eyJjb3VudHJ5IjoiZGUiLCJjdXJyZW5jeSI6MiwibGFuZ3VhZ2UiOjF9&reload=1

It must be a joke...

[Gunnar Jonny]

Well,
Genos is some yars old now (close to 5?), and is not that much cheaper than the newcomers.
https://www.thomann.de/de/yamaha_genos.htm

[Jeff Hollande]

Hey Johnny :

The Genos' successor might be USD 1,000,-- higher in price than the present Genos' price ... who knows ? 

BUT ... it will beat all competition : top quality equipped with the latest technology for at least another 5 years, IMHO.

Patience will be rewarded.
You may say I am a dreamer but I am sure Yamaha's new baby will be the best of all, as usual.

Best regards, JH

[Christophermoment]

Well,
Genos is some yars old now (close to 5?), and is not that much cheaper than the newcomers.
https://www.thomann.de/de/yamaha_genos.htm

So? What's your point?

[keynote]

So? What's your point?

You can bet your bottom dollar $, euro €, or yen ¥, whatever the case may be, that when the Genos 2 is about to be launched the price for the current Genos will decrease accordingly. Hopefully, Yammie will follow tradition and the Genos 2 will be launched at a special introductory price. Makes sense because it will attract more buyers and first time customers. That said, the $64K question is, what's taking Yamaha so long? I think one reason is it has something to do with MIDI 2.0 implementation. Another reason is the global pandemic and resulting chip shortages, supply chain, and other crises put Yamaha in a bind and probably at least a year behind schedule. Since Yamaha told Peter Baartmans that his next touring duties will start in December 2023, it sounds to me like the Genos 2 will probably be announced at NAMM or officially launched at the yearly UK Keyboard Club event in November where Peter and Martin Harris will be in attendance and likely showcase the new Genos successor, according to Yamaha UK. Let's hope so. This is the longest time span ever that I'm aware of where Yamaha has taken over 5 years (it will actually be 6 years if Yamaha waits until November) to release a new model top-of-the-line arranger keyboard. Here's to hoping. 👍

All the best, Mike