New TOTL Arranger from Ketron

[pjd]

True, Mike. I wouldn't have used the word, "amateur."
Perhaps, "recreational players," "home players," "off stage players" or "for fun players."

It's a shame that the word "amateur" has taken a negative connotation. It once meant "lover of art". And the way it is now used and abused in sports!  Yikes! 

-- pj

[Jeff Hollande]

Hi Guys :

All my competitors' questions are answered now.
Too many question marks and too many doubts are very confusing.

My personal conclusion :
There is absolutely no reason why on earth I should leave Yamaha.
Amen.

Best wishes, JH

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

It's a shame that the word "amateur" has taken a negative connotation. It once meant "lover of art". And the way it is now used and abused in sports!  Yikes! 

-- pj

I am not am not a half wit " I am a complete idiot "!!!

[Lee Batchelor]

Not possible John. You figured how to record the Genos to a DAW. That makes you a genius !

[mikf]

It's a shame that the word "amateur" has taken a negative connotation. It once meant "lover of art". And the way it is now used and abused in sports!  Yikes! 

-- pj

I have seen it written many times on the forum that the amateur and professional should be used to designate those who make a living as a musician, or those who do not, rather than competence level. But in fact this is incorrect. Although that is one meaning, use of the word professional to denote someone who has high level of skill, even if unpaid, and amateur to denote incompetence even if they are paid, are both legitimate uses of the words. English Dictionaries have contained those definitions for many years. I don't know when it first started to be used that way, but I would think, more than hundred years, and it is now very common.
Mike

[ton37]

Thank you for attempting to define the use of these terms, @mikf. This seems to me a very plausible description to use. Of course for what it's worth, but for semantics it's good to use it correctly. The problem can be: when is it considered that someone has so many 'skills' that this indicates the boundary between the 2 definitions 'Professional or Amateur'.  I assume this refers purely to playing technique and virtuosity/finger dexterity, not how you use the functions and possibilities of your (advanced) keyboard. Seen from my level, almost everyone here is 'professional'  It doesn't bother me, the 'fun'-dimension is independent of whether you are 'amateur or professional'. 

[Jeff Hollande]

Hi Mike :

The original French word "amateur " has different meanings.
Might be negative or positive. All depends on the content of the text.

Apparently in this case Ketron made a big mistake by using the English word "amateur ".
I have the impression Ketron's Marketing Departement might be "amateurish ".

JH
 

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

I have seen it written many times on the forum that the amateur and professional should be used to designate those who make a living as a musician, or those who do not, rather than competence level. But in fact this is incorrect. Although that is one meaning, use of the word professional to denote someone who has high level of skill, even if unpaid, and amateur to denote incompetence even if they are paid, are both legitimate uses of the words. English Dictionaries have contained those definitions for many years. I don't know when it first started to be used that way, but I would think, more than hundred years, and it is now very common.
Mike

Hi Lee
Genos and Cubase
I have learnt so much on the mix side in Cubase now all by trial and error.
I go over and over the same song making different approaches .
Now nearly all mistakes overcome.
I lke Ian Sheppards advice , Mixing and mastering is like peeling an onion.
Work by doing a few layers at a time to uncover what comes next until you have no onion Left!! .
Once mixing a song every move you make with compression and limiting can change parts of a song.
I have used AB referencing with a commercial track and that sorts the Tonal balance, then there is dynamics.
This is where i slipped up and now have sorted that.
Once i get a workflow going i will be away with the fairies
The big thing is as long as you get a strong recording input on the Genos , you are almost there.
It takes a long time to realize it.
It is all about small moves in Cubase which makes the big difference.
I would like to know, why does it take so long for the penny to drop.
Oh well, i am not a master yet but happy having a good go at it
What!!"Me an amateur"!! "nah"!!  "i'm Van Gogh"!!!!
i would be better being Van Gaal. At least i can kick a ball!!


All the best
John

[Jeff Hollande]

Hi John :

Some people call " Mixing and Mastering " an Art not a Science. 

All the best, JH

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi John :

Some people call " Mixing and Mastering " an Art not a Science. 

All the best, JH

Thank god that takes the amateur away out of the equation

[DrakeM]

Hi John :

Some people call " Mixing and Mastering " an Art not a Science. 

All the best, JH

Not anymore it's simple to do with a free AI online service.

https://www.bandlab.com/mastering

This guy's video convinced me. I could tell the difference in the A/B test at the end of his video.
The time he spent verses the final result wasn't worth the difference (IMO).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfev8CifjRY

Regards
Drake

[Lee Batchelor]

Hi John:
Some people call " Mixing and Mastering " an Art not a Science. 
All the best, JH

True Jeff. Mixing and mastering is an art but those who do must use science as a tool 😀.

[Lee Batchelor]

I remember years ago, mixing my first CD with my music partner in my home studio. I had no studio monitors, just computer speakers, and an onboard sound interface - some cheap piece of garbage. My DAW was the free version of Cubase that came with my Tyros 2. I recorded my backing tracks as pure audio, which made editing out glowing errors basically impossible. I had to do several takes for the complex stuff.

To establish the final mix level, I played a Michael Buble CD over my speakers and measured how loud his songs were - both his quiet songs and screaming brass tracks, using an analog dB meter from Radio Shack. I played back my background scores with the vocals and raised the level to the same levels heard from the Buble CD. It worked. We sold over 500 of those CDs!

John, you are absolutely correct that when you have such sophisticated tools that we have today, one small tweak here causes something to change over there. It's all about compromise. My friend used to be the chief speaker designer at Yorkville Sound just east of Toronto. He told me that they would use computer software to design a perfect response curve for a speaker. They would build the prototype and then test the response and it would sound terrible. They often altered the design to match human hearing, where the computer simulation showed that the design was totally wrong. These tools we have are amazing but my final meter stick is my ears. Make sure you take several breaks between adjustments. If you listen to the same tracks over and over again, they'll eventually sound right when in fact, they're terrible.

Side note
This topic has drifted in many directions, hence why it's now 15 pages and growing. I submit that such threads are very productive because it gets us all thinking about music in general, and that's what we are all about. At one point, it was thought that this thread should be shut down because it drifted too far off the target. My hat's off to the moderators for not doing so. These are all healthy discussions 😀!

[EileenL]

I think most people agree that playing music comes from the heart and feeling put into the piece is all part of the enjoyment of listening.
I don't want to listen to music that tries to sound like the CD. I can go out and buy it if I like it. I am a believer in keeping live music live. To me you can't beat it.

[mikf]

I've heard people listen to music and say "what a great song", or "boy that guy can play" or "what a great arrangement", or " what a great voice" - but never heard anyone say "what a great mix".!!
Mike

[DrakeM]

I've heard people listen to music and say "what a great song", or "boy that guy can play" or "what a great arrangement", or " what a great voice" - but never heard anyone say "what a great mix".!!
Mike

Maybe not but I have heard "that is s#%& mix" from my wife. 

She gives out free good advise by the way.

[Amwilburn]

Not anymore it's simple to do with a free AI online service.

https://www.bandlab.com/mastering

This guy's video convinced me. I could tell the difference in the A/B test at the end of his video.
The time he spent verses the final result wasn't worth the difference (IMO).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfev8CifjRY

Regards
Drake

Thanks for finding this!

I don't know which was which, but A sounded more 'alive' and B sounded rather flat and lifeless to me, so very big difference between the 2 mixes. Having said that, if AI can generate passing university level homework, I've no doubt it could learn to mix. A cool *free* option for those who don't have time/ don't want to master.

Mark

[Jeff Hollande]

Hi Guys :

As I said before Mixing and Mastering might be called an Art ... but, Lee B is right : the ( deep ) knowledge of the ( modern ) audio recording technology is absolutely a must.
In pro recording studio's Mixing and Mastering are mostly done ( together ) by the producer and the audio engineer(s).

If the quality of each individual recorded track is not good it is almost impossible to make a perfect Mixing and/or Mastering.
IMHO the total Mixing and Mastering activity might be a " professional " Art ?

BTW ...
Home recording is a hot item today and could be very interesting/attractive for home players and giggers.
BUT ... even very good home recordings are still called ( by professionals ) : demo recordings.

Attachment : photo of the EW Recording Studio's in Hollywood/USA. WOW !

Best regards, JH

[attachment unavailable]

[AndrewKeyz]

I think most musicians possibly worry a bit too much about mastering than might be necessary. I've done that a lot in the past. And what has rightly been pointed out hardly any of the listeners will care about the mix / mastering much.

The sound that comes out of a Genos with its in built recorder is already excellent. Pumping it through an automated mastering tool will improve it a bit, there is no denying, but it's doubtful someone listening to your recording will care much whether you did that or not.

Consider many of us listen to most music in compressed format these days.

At the same time (and bringing this back to arranger talk), if you DO want to go down the uncompressed format route and make your music sound the best it can possibly be and possibly master things afterwards, I find it truly shocking that the likes of the PA5X cannot even record to Wav, only MP3. Even an SX600 can record to Wav on external USB.
Utterly pathetic from Korg for £4000 in my opinion.

[Jeff Hollande]

Hey Andrew :

IMO most listeners do not care about Mixing & Mastering. They are listening to the song. If they like the song it might become a hit.
Most musicians do care, I guess.

Automated Mastering might be very risky. The human ear is still the best tool to have the greatest results, IMHO.

In the past all mixing and mastering were done by ear.
After all these years I am still surprised by the super sound quality of some good old songs. Timeless.

All the best, JH

[AndrewKeyz]

Shame these videos are never in English but obviously you can get the gist easily here after initial minutes of blabbering.

I do like these lock features I must say. I think only really useful if you can quickly select with registrations for certain parts in songs and then move on. But a good feature anyway.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVKfSpCd5ug&ab_channel=BartekKrzemi%C5%84ski

[usaraiya]

Shame these videos are never in English but obviously you can get the gist easily here after initial minutes of blabbering.

I do like these lock features I must say. I think only really useful if you can quickly select with registrations for certain parts in songs and then move on. But a good feature anyway.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVKfSpCd5ug&ab_channel=BartekKrzemi%C5%84ski

In the video, go to settings, subtitles and choose English, and there you have the English translation of the entire video!

Uday

[Amwilburn]

Real bass & chord lock *is* a very cool feature, although real bass can sort of be achieved on existing arrangers by simply octaving the bass. Real chord however, isn't so easy to do!

Mark

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi
From what i have learnt so far is that these auto fix Master online tools do not cut the mustard if your mix is not up to a good standard.
The saying is that you cannot polish a turd.
I personally do not like the online auto fixes.
The other thing is if a mastering mix is fantastic and nobody notices, that means the job is done properly.
I do notice a great mix from a ordinary one and that is why i strive to do the best that i can and it is all coming together now.
I have just got rid of my Marantz PM6003 hi-fi stereo amp and upgraded to The Marantz PM7000N and wow, the music and the detail coming out of my speakers is fantastic. Still some people prefer a transister radio . Yo can't win e'm all.
I like to hear detail in music, but others are not bothered. So it really is down to what is your poison.
Eileen is happy with live playing and so am i , but i also like to make multi-tracks and go into detail in my Man cave
I will soon put some music up and hopefully it has progressed.
I do play a whole song and record on the Genos. I practice a song for a few days and then go for a one hit on the Genos .
This way keeps the human touch.
I then transport to Cubase and do some edits.
If i want more detail, i will put back into the Genos and do more tracks.
After that mix in Cubase and finish with Ozone 10.
It is great mixing your own music, much better that the auto mixing overlords online. Drop & Go!!
My pennies worth now is that you have to AB your music with a similar sounding track and dynamics and tonal balance is a must.
Automate volumes and stereo image in Cubase and learn EQ, Compression and Limiting.
I also find that Room Correction by Sonarworks is 100% in my Square room of death

[Joe H]

Mixing is an art.  You either have it or you don't (a good ear).  Sorry... but that's the way it is. There are things pros can learn about how to apply effects processors, panning, how to blend the instruments and vocals (volumes) and the like.  So some learning is necessary, buy you still have to have a good ear.



Joe H

[Lee Batchelor]

Good point, Joe. And after you become good at mixing and mastering, there's still the HUGE variables with which you have no control:

1) Personal taste of the listeners' music.
2) Speaker quality. Low end speakers will appeal to some but those who have high end speakers will require impeccable results and if they don't get them, they'll blame the mixing and mastering person.
3) Signal source. Is it a CD, DVD, Blue Ray, Netflix, YouTube, or some other format like mp3, Wave? In this digital world, it's next to impossible to cover all the bases. No matter what, your mix is going to sound great or horrible.
4) Compression rate of the source signal. YouTube still can't get it right. Their sound levels are all over the map, and the quality is either pretty good or terrible.

Mixing and mastering techs are really up against the wall on this stuff. They must deal in averages, not absolutes like their forefathers in the 60s and 70s.

[Jeff Hollande]

Nowadays we do not hear very much from Ketron ...

The first ( promised ) December 2022 Event's delivery has been postponed.
Some dealers make us believe potential customers have to wait another 4-6 weeks, others say : " delivery time unknown ".

Problems perhaps ? 
Only time will tell, I guess.

JH

[AndrewKeyz]

DV247.com has it listed at 21st of April now. Thomann.de says 5-7 weeks.

So nobody is going to get it till then Jeff?

[kiplis]

Hi.

Yes, has being postponed, once again. But, the good news is the new price 

https://www.musicstore.com/en_NO/NOK/Ketron-EVENT/art-KEY0005700-000

"Ordered, estimated to be in stock: Apr 21, 2023 "

[Jeff Hollande]

Hi.

Yes, has being postponed, once again. But, the good news is the new price 

https://www.musicstore.com/en_NO/NOK/Ketron-EVENT/art-KEY0005700-000

"Ordered, estimated to be in stock: Apr 21, 2023 "

Thank you for the link.

The Event might be expected on Aprli 21, 2023 ( source : Music Store - Germany ).
01. A firm delivery date has not been confirmed by Ketron yet, right ?   
02. The enduser's unit price has been lowered by Euro 800,- ! From E 4,999 to E 4,200 ... a lot of money though.

It could be interesting for potential buyers ( ? ) to find out why Ketron have postponed the Event's estimated delivery time for the second time and why they have drastically decreased their unit price without prior notice. 

An unusual policy, IMHO.
Best regards, JH