New TOTL Arranger from Ketron

[Amwilburn]

Absolutely, no one should discount the Genos if considering between that, PA5X and Event.

I got frustrated with the PA5X after about 5 months so went back to the Genos.
The styles sound good on the PA5X, really good in certain places even, very funky basslines and inspirational, and they sound even better on the Event going by demos but if your playing isn't enjoyable then that will matter much less.

Another stupid thing on the PA5X; it can only record to MP3! No Wav!  I hope this is addressed in the future but maybe not as it's written into the manual MP3 only. With all the extra expansion space (two small sd slots at the back that can take a 1TB each I believe) I don't understand why.
The keybed is also disappointing on the 88 key version, the main reason I got it. Very noisy and it is getting worse. I reckon any Fatar one will not suffice for me personally. Now looking at swapping the Korg for a Kawai or Nord Grand and use that in conjunction with the Genos. I think that might be the perfect setup for me.

Hopefully we can see the Event screen registration buttons in action. But with styles taking the attention away this may stay hidden from us.

All very true (from a dealer perspective). Yes, the Korg weighted keys are good in terms of weighting, but they are relatively slow (compared to any Yamaha with wooden keys, like P515, CVP800 series, etc) and yes they get clickier as time goes on. Not just Korg, Nord keys, and yes, any Fatar keys are like that. Not for me either; once I had a wooden key Yamaha, there was no going back to sluggish keys. I had a customer who originally pre ordered PA5x 88, but before he did I had to show him what the keys felt like (same as on Korg C1Air/G1Air. Decent, but not as fast as his acoustic grand piano) so he switched to the 76 (and immediately refunded it because it's even more complicated to use than his PA1000).  On Yamaha you just pop in your USB stick and read a style, on Korg, due to being forced to read from a fixed array, you actually have to individually* copy the styles you want into the internal fixed array, and then overwrite one of those slots (you *can* batch copy, but it overwrites the entirety of each bank, so really only useful to batch copy the 1st set of styles for each bank, the rest you have to individually copy).

Having said that, the PA5x piano sound is *fantastic* and schools the Genos, the solo strings (and even the combination string layers) are quite good, except for the higher octaves which still sound distinctly "synthy", same problem as the predecessor. And the modern pop/R&B styles are second to none. The build and finish are also far superior to the Genos... but as a consequence it weighs 10 lbs more.

I like the classical guitars slightly more on the Pa5x (but Genos still has better steel string guitars, and shockingly, electric distorition guitars, which Korg has traditionally been superior in). Both have great electric clean guitars.  The PA5x Shakuhachi is also *miles* better than the default Genos one. EP's and Organs are good on both, but you won't have people complaining about rotary on/off being baked into the sound, as they use DSP's on all organs. And instead of having to hold the stick up for fast? You just tap the stick up once to speed up/slow down the rotary. *however* it would've made more sense to use one of the 3 assignable (articulation) buttons :p

Oh the Nord Grand is the only one that doesn't use the standard clacky Fatar keys, and the piano samples are *fantastic*. However, still not a wooden key. If you're looking for a better key feel and a better piano sound than the P515 (which is middling), try the CP88. I would've suggested one of the new wooden key Casios (PXS5000-7000), but oddly, they only offer USB B midi out, not standard 5 pin, rendering them difficult to use as a master KB.

One of my customers tried slaving a PSRsx900 from a Casio PXS1000... and weirdly it *worked* using a custom USB B to B cable. But it's not supposed to! :p
Baffling decision to leave out 5 pin midi, but *wow* are they ever compact and light. Wood/resin hybrid 88 keys weighs 25 lbs *with* built in speakers... the next lightest with built in speakers is the P515 which comes in a 49.5lbs.

If sound is more important than the key action, I'd go with the Nord Grand. If key action is most important I'd go with the CP88. If you want good key action (not as good as the Yamahas but superior to everyone else) and lightweight portability? Try one of the PXS5000/6000/7000. Crazy light. But you'll need to buy a USB B to B cable if you want to run a master/slave setup on your Genos.

Mark

[AndrewKeyz]

All very true (from a dealer perspective). Yes, the Korg weighted keys are good in terms of weighting, but they are relatively slow (compared to any Yamaha with wooden keys, like P515, CVP800 series, etc) and yes they get clickier as time goes on. Not just Korg, Nord keys, and yes, any Fatar keys are like that. Not for me either; once I had a wooden key Yamaha, there was no going back to sluggish keys. I had a customer who originally pre ordered PA5x 88, but before he did I had to show him what the keys felt like (same as on Korg C1Air/G1Air. Decent, but not as fast as his acoustic grand piano) so he switched to the 76 (and immediately refunded it because it's even more complicated to use than his PA1000).  On Yamaha you just pop in your USB stick and read a style, on Korg, due to being forced to read from a fixed array, you actually have to individually* copy the styles you want into the internal fixed array, and then overwrite one of those slots (you *can* batch copy, but it overwrites the entirety of each bank, so really only useful to batch copy the 1st set of styles for each bank, the rest you have to individually copy).

Having said that, the PA5x piano sound is *fantastic* and schools the Genos, the solo strings (and even the combination string layers) are quite good, except for the higher octaves which still sound distinctly "synthy", same problem as the predecessor. And the modern pop/R&B styles are second to none. The build and finish are also far superior to the Genos... but as a consequence it weighs 10 lbs more.

I like the Classical guitars slightly more on the Pa5x (but Genos still has better steel string guitars, and shockingly, electric distorition guitars, which Korg has traditionally been superior in). Both have great electric clean guitars.  The PA5x Shakuhachi is also *miles* better than the default Genos one. EP's and Organs are good on both, but you won't have people complaining about rotary on/off being baked into the sound, as they use DSP's on all organs. And instead of having to hold the stick up for fast? You just tap the stick up once to speed up/slow down the rotary. *however* it would've made more sense to use one of the 3 assignable (articulation) buttons :p

Oh the Nord Grand is the only one that doesn't use the standard clacky Fatar keys, and the piano samples are *fantastic*. However, still not a wooden key. If you're looking for a better key feel and a better piano sound than the P515 (which is middling), try the CP88. I would've suggested one of the new wooden key Casios (PXS5000-7000), but oddly, they only offer USB B midi out, not standard 5 pin, rendering them difficult to use as a master KB.

One of my customers tried slaving a PSRsx900 from a Casio PXS1000... and weirdly it *worked* using a custom USB B to B cable. But it's not supposed to! :p
Baffling decision to leave out 5 pin midi, but *wow* are they ever compact and light. Wood/resin hybrid 88 keys weighs 25 lbs *with* built in speakers... the next lightest with built in speakers is the P515 which comes in a 49.5lbs.

If sound is more important than the key action, I'd go with the Nord Grand. If key action is most important I'd go with the CP88. If you want good key action (not as good as the Yamahas but superior to everyone else) and lightweight portability? Try one of the PXS5000/6000/7000. Crazy light. But you'll need to buy a USB B to B cable if you want to run a master/slave setup on your Genos.

Mark

Thanks Mark, very good advice. And indeed, your thoughts/conclusions on the Korg PA5X appear similar to mine. Will have a look at the CP88 for sure. The advantage is it will fit in the studio desk drawer I have, the Nord Grand won't.

[Jeff Hollande]

Hey Mark :

Thank you so much for informing this forum about your pros and cons findings between the Yamaha Genos and the Korg PA5X/88.

BTW, is it your intention to add the Ketron/Event to your arrranger's product range in the near future ?
If that might be the case, an objective, detailed dealer's comparison between the Genos and the Event would always be very welcome ( to whom it may concern ), I guess.
There is no enduser's reaction of this new arranger available ( yet ).
I am still waiting for Ketron's English spoken pro video presentation. Wonder if it will ever come ?

For your information, I have no intention to buy a competitive arranger keyboard. I am a traditional Yamaha customer for more than 22 years.

As usual I am always reading your educational comments. 

Best regards, JH

[keynote]

I'd expect a Genos followup, which I think will have a completely different name again, so not to confuse with the 2.0 firmware upgrade on the Genos to have this quite a bit more. 

Fascinating insight, Andrew. You never really know what's going through Yamaha's collective thoughts but you may be on to something. I have also suggested that Yamaha will name the Genos successor something else, but not for the reason you mentioned. But you could very well be spot on. Although, there's one possible way to remedy the current situation and that would be for Yammie to come out with a Genos OS 3.0 update. Then when they finally do release a Genos successor they could actually call it Genos 2/II/Deux and feel good about it?   Or how about the Yamaha 'Ninja', keyboard edition? 

All the best,
Mike

[Jeff Hollande]

Hi Guys :

Do ( some ? ) Genos' owners still expect a last Genos' update before Yamaha are going to launch their Genos' successor ?
Or ... did I misunderstand this message ... age problem perhaps ? Sorry !😮

Best regards, JH

[AndrewKeyz]

Hi Guys :

Do ( some ? ) Genos' owners still expect a last Genos' update before Yamaha are going to launch their Genos' successor ?

Or ... did I misunderstand this message ... age problem perhaps ? Sorry !😮

Best regards, JH

Personally I doubt it. There might be a bug fix update or two before the Genos successor but nothing like the 2.0 enhancements. Why would they bother? They already released all the expansions for free. I think this was possibly an admission that nothing major is coming anymore.

It's a shame in a way because so much more could be done.
I would have liked to have seen another 100 styles and some more sounds (a few more pianos, fiddle).

I still think what Yamaha will deliver in the Genos follow up (AI based reactive styles possibly) will make the Ketron's approach of live styles as a step backwards. No offence.
That is possibly what many of the Yammie product software devs are working on.

[Jeff Hollande]

Hey Andrew :

A long time ago Yamaha offered all their expansions free of charge.
Does it mean it is the end of these expansion packs and will the successor be completely different than the Genos with a new engine, a new styles' concept and a new brand name or
am I dreaming ?
We have to wait ( at least ) another 8 months ( September 2023 ? ) before Yamaha might introduce their new high end arranger but it could be very spectacular, I hope ... wait and see ! 🤓

Regards,
JH

[EileenL]

I think Yamaha had gone as far as it wanted with expansion packs and there are so many third party packs around now to buy. They probably decided they could invest the money spent on this side into the development of future keyboards.

[Gunnar Jonny]

Hey Andrew :

A long time ago Yamaha offered all their expansions free of charge.
Does it mean it is the end of these expansion packs and will the successor be completely different than the Genos with a new engine, a new styles' concept and a new brand name or
am I dreaming ?

Or, maybe it simply mean that it is the end of the developing and production Yamaha TOTL arranger series. 🤔
I'm not sure that I would be much surprised if so...

[ton37]

Agree, it could just be. Why not? Or Elon Musk wants to take over. Then the keyboard will be provided with a button for Twitter and the model name will be Lexos... 

[Jeff Hollande]

Hey Jonny :

Interesting ... why should Yamaha consider to leave the high end arranger keyboard market ?
Yamaha have been ( and still are, right ? ) the market leader for more than 20 years ...

Best wishes,
JH

[Gunnar Jonny]

Hey Jonny :

Interesting ... why should Yamaha consider to leave the high end arranger keyboard market ?

Well, if you look at the average age of the buyer / users of the high end arrangers, the sales market decrease rapidly. How big do you estimate that the percentage of the young ones that prefer to buy such arrangers is?
Back in the 80'es and up, there was a lot of 'one-man-band', duos and trios that used arrangers at all kind of gigs, now it's rarely any to see. The young ones seem to prefer other kind of equipment.
On top of that, we have the unstable situation around the world ..... 😟

[ckobu]

I show Yamaha arrangers on my YouTube channel. Last year's analytics show that 70% of visitors are under 54 years old.

I hope Yamaha will have a new model by the end of this year and I'm sure problems like this won't happen.
https://youtu.be/SpN5qRDwLjE

[attachment unavailable]

[AndrewKeyz]

I show Yamaha arrangers on my YouTube channel. Last year's analytics show that 70% of visitors are under 54 years old.

I hope Yamaha will have a new model by the end of this year and I'm sure problems like this won't happen.
https://youtu.be/SpN5qRDwLjE

I have near 80% visitors under 54 on my channel. 85% male which is quite surprising as I know several female Genos owners.

Of course the usage of DAWs and midi controllers will have made a dent in the market over the decades but I think things have been relatively consistent over the last 10 years.

Moreover I have not seen any convincing DAW related software that works as well as a modern arranger for creating backing music.

Using samples and things like Band in a Box look pretty boring to use, nor does anyone today seem to care much about it. BIAB's interface looks pretty old fashioned and just purchasing it from the site seems overwhelming with info rather than just demoing the software possibilities quickly. It is pretty poor to say the least. When I click on the first video with what BIAB 2022 is all about I hear an avalanche of narrated information and can't hear the music at all. Madness!  There might be good possibilities, but who will know about it when it is advertised this way?



Programming backing tracks is pretty tiring as I used to find. Interesting for sure and you can learn a lot but also boring if you just want to play music.
Maybe an older demography is attracted to using arranger keyboards even in this day due to that reason - I know I am - and they will often have the money and space for one.

I don't think music keyboards are going away. Will Yamaha sell less of Genos follow up? Possibly, due to all sorts of reasons, but the tech will be used for the cheaper models later which I presume sell far better anyway and where the real money is made I bet.

Bringing this back to Ketron. I am pretty sure the next flagship arranger from Yamaha will outsell the Event massively as what has been stated here due to the lack of dealer network alone. Where I buy my keyboards / synth I can trade an old one in. There isn't a single place I can buy a Ketron Event with a trade in option as far as I can see so far. This certainly makes it less of an attractive option.

Maybe some English speaking overview videos will be coming out in the next few weeks but so far I doubt even 10% of the Genos owners around the world know about the Event.

[Jeff Hollande]

Thank you, Guys for this very useful / interesting information and your attachments.

Yamaha will announce a brand new, spectacular high end arranger ( 76 keys ) in September 2023.
Estimated Delivery : November/December 2023, early 2024.

I would not be surprised a new SX successor ( 61 keys ) will follow a year later ( 2025 ? ).

Take care, JH

[usaraiya]

Thank you, Guys for this very useful / interesting information and your attachments.

Yamaha will announce a brand new, spectacular high end arranger ( 76 keys ) in September 2023.
Estimated Delivery : November/December 2023, early 2024.

I would not be surprised a new SX successor ( 61 keys ) will follow a year later ( 2025 ? ).

Take care, JH

Jeff,
where did you get this information? Yamaha? Or, is it pure speculation & hope?

Uday

[Jeff Hollande]

 Just intuitive hope and 100% pure speculation. 
Yamaha are always introducing their new high ends in September ... cross my fingers it will be 09/2023, 6 years after the Genos ....

Best regards, JH

[EileenL]

If you remember back in the days Yamaha did not want to produce extra styles. There main interest was producing first class instruments. These style creators demand very high prices for doing this as do sampled voices. There are now other third party manufactures doing these so as I said I believe Yamaha have gone back to there original ideas.
  As to when a new keyboard comes along it is anyone's guess but I am sure there will be one.

[Dnj]

There is a reason Yamaha has waited all this time in between releases of another arranger keyboard.
After all how much better could they be compared to the Genos, and SX lines we have now?...
Personally, I think they are reassessing their ideas in R&D and we could very well be surprised at the outcome.
I also think there will be if at all a NEW Direction for Yamaha getting away from the traditional things we are all used to regarding features that are more up to today's music creation & generational needs.
First & foremost like any business all this needs to be profitable for Yamaha too thats the bottom line..

Thoughts?

[Bill]

Hi DNJ

You seem to be thinking pretty much what I think (which is what I said in the middle of page 12 of this thread.

Bill

[Danny1972]

Personally, in my opinion, the fact that Yamaha are taking this long against their usual practice - which would have been the usual increment after 2 or 3 years, I think could suggest a different direction.

Well they better otherwise if all the hoo har everybody has been giving the Pa5x and Event then Yamaha brings out a Genos2 with 10 additional styles, another USB port,3 new SA voices and the keyboard in Pink, I think most people would be totally pissed with a gesture update where we've building up Yamaha to expect something spectacular to arrive - that may never even happen at all.

[AndrewKeyz]

Personally, in my opinion, the fact that Yamaha are taking this long against their usual practice - which would have been the usual increment after 2 or 3 years, I think could suggest a different direction.

Well they better otherwise if all the hoo har everybody has been giving the Pa5x and Event then Yamaha brings out a Genos2 with 10 additional styles, another USB port,3 new SA voices and the keyboard in Pink, I think most people would be totally ****** with a gesture update where we've building up Yamaha to expect something spectacular to arrive - that may never even happen at all.

If they made a metallic Gold edition Genos, included a style for Prince's Gold song along with another 200 new styles based on great songs and fixed seamless sound switching, personally I'd be pretty happy. 

[Jeff Hollande]

My Dutch dealer told me this morning he has no information ( from the Italian manufacturer ) when the Ketron/Event will be available for sale.
On his website he says : Delivery time unknown. 

JH

[AndrewKeyz]

My Dutch dealer told me this morning he has no information ( from the Italian manufacturer ) when the Ketron/Event will be available for sale.
On his website he says : Delivery time unknown. 

JH

Thomann says 6-8 weeks whilst DV247 (many products usually ship from Germany overnight via DHL) still has 3rd of Feb launch date for me.
Both have no trade in option.

[Duffy]

Thomann says 6-8 weeks whilst DV247 (many products usually ship from Germany overnight via DHL) still has 3rd of Feb launch date for me.
Both have no trade in option.

No matter how good the Event is, it will not sell in large numbers and will never be a competitor to  Yamaha & Korg.
There are so few outlets who will sell it and none at all will do part exchange.
Ketron UK themselves refused to take used Ketrons in part exchange for new Ketron boards or modules and now, even they have closed down.
Ketron make surprisingly good instruments and then make them almost impossible to buy.

[Lee Batchelor]

Ketron make surprisingly good instruments and then make them almost impossible to buy.

That's true and very surprising. Makes you wonder why they're even in business. Developing these devices is not cheap.

[keynote]

That's true and very surprising. Makes you wonder why they're even in business. Developing these devices is not cheap.

AJ at Ketron USA said Ketron Italy will NOT be shipping any more Events until sometime in March. Apparently Ketron is a much smaller company than I realized. There could be just a dozen or so people assembling the Events, and they probably want to have a couple of hundred or so on hand to ship out by March, which means they could be working around the clock to accomplish their goal. Now, as far as Yamaha goes, there's really no telling what's going on behind the scenes at Yamaha Japan unless, of course, someone at Yamaha USA/UK/etc., breaks the NDA or Yamaha personally starts leaking things to the media to give people a heads-up about a possible new high-end arranger coming down the pike. Remember, Yammie hasn't even hinted about a Montage replacement yet, and the Montage has been on the market a year longer than the Genos has. Now, if you've got deep pockets and don't gig and want a stellar high-end "digital piano" arranger keyboard, there's always the Yamaha CVP-805/809 to consider. It sounds better than the Genos, has new voices and about the same amount of voices as Genos, 675 Styles, has VRM (Virtual Resonance Modeling) technology used for the CFX Pianos also with Binaural Sampling (also included is the Bösendorfer Imperial Grand), 256 note polyphony with no mention of the polyphony being relegated to separate sections/areas e.g. Preset and Expansion sections on the Genos is divided i.e. 128 note (Preset) & 128 note (Expansion). So that's another huge plus regarding the CVP line, if true. 88-key Linear Graded Hammers, which is the bee's knee's if you're mainly a Pianist at heart. And the nice thing is, it doesn't seem to affect the users' ability to play other voices effortlessly.

Here's a recent video demonstrating the CVP-809 that makes that point. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RQS5fdSy6U    The CVP-805/(809 is top-of-the-line) are rather expensive, but I'm talking to those with deep pockets who no longer gig. Set it and forget it since it weighs 185 lbs (Polished finish) 181 lbs, Matte Finish. So in conclusion, if Yammie has decided to exit the TOTL arranger market, then we would still have the very popular and fantastic sounding CVP line...for people with deep pockets.  Everyone else can either keep the Genos until the cows come home, or chuck the Genos and get a Pa5X or a Ketron Event that have newer technology and also sound great. Your choice. 

Btw, I mentioned a while back that Yamaha employees sometimes peruse the PSR Tutorial forums. When the Genos first came out, a Yamaha employee by the name of Heratch Touresian posted a few times on the forum. Previously, I had forgotten his name. He's an expert in the digital music industry (both hardware and software) who has been working for Yamaha as a technical sales specialist since 2002. I'm sure there are other Yammie employees who also check us out on occasion to see what we're up to and to get ideas of what Yamaha customers are looking for in future Yamaha keyboard products. Thought I'd throw that in. PS: If you want a fantastic deal on a Yamaha CVP-809, look no further than the Piano Guys Piano Store out of Gilbert, Arizona. They have a website: thepianoguyspianostore.com. They're currently having a sale on the CVP line. Furthermore, they beat Sweetwater.com price by a lot, FYI. I'm not sure if they ship internationally, though. Enjoy whatever you play! And let's all hope Yamaha hasn't given up on top-of-the-line arranger keyboards. September 2023 sounds okay with me, if true.  Remember the NAMM 2023 trade show runs April 13-15 so perhaps Yamaha will reveal a Genos successor there? 👍 

All the best, Mike

[Bill]

Latest video from AJ First and last parts just playing. The middle section is a tutorial on Styles.

https://youtu.be/HRTKta4MZ3Q

Bill

[Bill Grosse]

The Pandemic has changed everything. Japan just this week lifted their masking rules. No doubt many of Yamaha's chips are made outside Japan and everyone knows about the chip shortages.

Bill G

[Ronbo]

This may be off topic, but a great big Hello goes out to Bill Grosse.

Nice to hear from you.

I guess rumours of your death were greatly exgadurated.

All the best to you

Regards

Ron

PS. Bill was our go-to guy a few years back