New TOTL Arranger from Ketron

[Lee Batchelor]

From my seat, I need a keyboard that can be adjusted on the fly during a show, and with both hands working the keys. It doesn't sound like that's an easy task on the Event.

Heck, I can remember when they introduced the Hold feature when a style was playing. All of a sudden we could just press the chord and move both hands above the split point instead of having to keep the left hand on the chords. That was a huge jump in technology! The controller surface of the PSRs, Tyros, and Genos are well thought out, for the better part. I'd stay with Yamaha on this.

[Sokratis1974]

Hey Bogdan :

I agree with you Sokratis presented us a nice piece of piano music here.

It looks to me the Event is not such an easy instrument to play though.
Sokratis is continuously touching knobs and sliders to change voices and other functions ( while he is playing ).

In other words it might take a lot of time before a player, ( who is not used to play a Ketron ), is capable to manage and operate this high end keyboard, IMHO.

JH

Hahaha No don't get confused by what I do while playing. It's just my way of managing. It has nothing to do with Event difficulty. Event behaves like a standard Arranger when playing. There is nothing special here.

[Jeff Hollande]

To avoid confusion it is always useful to check everything before showing a demo on Youtube, IMHO.
Viewers prefer to see both hands on the keys, they say.


Best wishes, JH

[Duffy]

I think it's very bad manners to show interest in a board and want demos, and then complain about the way the guy plays when he demos it.
The Ketron has Styles, Sounds and Registrations like any other keyboard and so, you can choose one and play it like any other keyboard. What's hard about that?
People who want to stick to their much loved Yamaha's can do that but,  I don't understand why they make such a fuss of a board which they think is inferior.
There is something for everybody out there.

[Sokratis1974]

Sorry guys. I didn't know that I have to make a special explanation about what I'm playing.

[EileenL]

I think it is maybe not easy for people who are used to what they can do with there Yamaha keyboards when playing. One thing that would interest me is how you would change voices on a performance. On Yamaha a lot of us would set up a registration bank to suit the song we were playing we can then change this by hand or applied to a foot switch to change as we played. It could contain just one voice or all three to give a rich sound for things like bands playing. Most songs have a build up where you would want to change voices to bring this out.
  The question is then how is this done on Ketron.

[Jeff Hollande]

I don't understand why they make such a fuss of a board which they think is inferior.

To my knowledge there is no member of this Yamaha Forum who believes the Event, an arranger of approx. US$ 5,000 ( without speaker set nor stand ), is called " inferior ".

First impression by most people, I guess : the Event is a good looking arranger. The sound quality seems to be great. No tiltable but a small screen and no multipads available. Audio styles.
A lot of unanswered questions which can lead to misunderstandings and confusion though.
One simple question e.g. : where can a customer buy the Event in her/his country ?

For the time being only a very few ( European ? ) dealers have installed one Event in their show room but these dealers cannot tell a potential customer when the Event will be available.
Ketron promised a first delivery in December 2022 and the next shipment in March 2023, am I right ?

Perhaps a good idea ?
It might be a very useful and helpful tool if an impartial pro arranger keyboard musician would present a video ( on YouTube e.g. ) where all Event's features are shown and explained, IMO.


Best wishes, JH

[BogdanH]

I'm sure many of you know Alois Müller on You tube. He had (or still has?) Genos, but most of his latest videos are around Korg Pa1000 and lately Korg Pa5X. Two weeks ago he visited his local store for Ketron Event presentation and there's very short video where he's trying Event for the first time.

I'm quite a fan of blues music and I must say that I never heard such authentic and good sounding accompaniment on any keyboard before. Here's the link:
Blues rhythm on Event

Bogdan

[travlin-easy]

Bogdon, he is obviously a great player, but the keyboard sounds do not impress me as much as those I have in the past from Korg and Yamaha. In this particular instance, it's the player - not the keyboard. Years ago, I heard Don Mason playing a Ketron and everyone that has heard Don perform knows that he is the master of duplicating guitar voices. He only had the Ketron a couple months, then sold it and began using a PA4X, because the guitar sounded more realistic. However, he freely admitted to me that the Yamaha guitar voices were the most realistic, though the Ketron had better drums than all the competition.

Gary

[BogdanH]

hello Gary,

...In this particular instance, it's the player - not the keyboard...

Kindly disagree in this case. In this video Alois actually doesn't play much at all.. there's only small saxophone improvisation with right hand and with left hand he only changes chords (which also act as fill-ins to my ears -if you pay attention on harmonica).
In this case it's not about which keyboard is better in particular sound... I'm just saying that so far, I never heard not even similar accompaniment.

Bogdan

[Jeff Hollande]

Hey Bogdan :

A couple of weeks ago A. Müller was invited by a local Belgian dealer ( not far away - approx. 25 km  - from my Dutch small town where I am living ).

Alois was asked to introduce the PA5X to the dealer's best keyboard customers. A very successful evening.

You are absolutely right !
Alois is a great German professional musician and one of the best arranger keyboard players I know.👍👍👍

JH

[EileenL]

It seemed to me like the keyboard was playing more than the player.

[Lee Batchelor]

Alois is a great German professional musician and one of the best arranger keyboard players I know.👍👍👍

I'd like to hear him actually play then 😀. He didn't really do anything in that video. I'm sure he's very good.

[AndrewKeyz]

One thing I'm noticing straight away is that the pitch bend and modulation wheels are near the top right hand corner on the Ketron Event. I hate when they do this. I have that on the PA5X 88. Extremely inconvenient in my opinion!

As a pianist I'm used to left and right, the odd button click just above the keyboard (Such as the registrations) is no problem but stretching any further for modulation is proving difficult for me.

Don't understand why Korg and Ketron aren't copying physical registration buttons, far more important than almost any other button on the keyboard. They seem like the best invention on a keyboard to me. Call them "scenes" or "sets" or whatever. Just place them between the keyboard and screen, **** it. 4 keyboard set buttons on the pa5x without any form of style control and 16 matrix pads that are impossible to program and thus not even as useful as a mere 4 multipads is just not good enough.
Having registrations on screen, if that is what the Ketron has?, I don't think would work as well during a hectic performance.

[BogdanH]

It seemed to me like the keyboard was playing more than the player.

I'd like to hear him actually play then 😀. He didn't really do anything in that video...

I can't really understand such comments... If he would play an actual piece, then there would be comments like "good keyboard player can make any keyboard sound good".
It's just a short excerpt from keyboard presentation, where we can get an impression of how keyboard sounds -that's what we are interested about. And here I can only say kudos where kudos is due.

Bogdan

[AndrewKeyz]

I can't really understand such comments... If he would play an actual piece, then there would be comments like "good keyboard player can make any keyboard sound good".
It's just a short excerpt from keyboard presentation, where we can get an impression of how keyboard sounds -that's what we are interested about. And here I can only say kudos where kudos is due.

Bogdan

In an ideal world a demo I guess would show both but if it's two-three minutes you can't expect this at all, agreed.

With the PA5X I remember every tom, dick and harry from small music outlets rushing online as soon as they were allowed to post demos and info from Korg, from midnight onwards and all those videos sucked. Terrible demos, terrible pathetic playing. All a rush job, you could see almost none of the people understood the keyboard better than basic information taken from the PA4X etc.

Then later on the first day of the PA5X's release Tony from Bonners came along and posted the perfect demo. He can often sell a keyboard better than the manufacturers themselves. A bit like Peter Baartmans' excellent demos for Yamaha. They make you want to play and sound just like that, even if you are never able to do so. 

There is a difference between a proper product demo and just a guy's first attempt at tinkering on a new keyboard. As long as the latter isn't sold as the first, no one can really complain.

[Jeff Hollande]

Hi Guys :

Alois Müller was simply  " touching " the keys of the Event, not really playing.
Absolutely not a demo at all, he said.

Afterwards he confirmed he is used to work with Yamaha and Korg
arrangers.

It was the first time he saw and touched an Event and he was/is not familiar with the Event at all ( yet ).

If you might be interested in A. Müller's craftsmanship, plse visit his own YouTube sites : Alois Müller Genos.

Watch his left hand !

Your comments are very welcome. 

Best regards, JH

[Lee Batchelor]

I can't really understand such comments... If he would play an actual piece, then there would be comments like "good keyboard player can make any keyboard sound good".
It's just a short excerpt from keyboard presentation, where we can get an impression of how keyboard sounds -that's what we are interested about. And here I can only say kudos where kudos is due.
Bogdan

Point taken Bogdan. No offence to Alois. My whole point was based on Jeff's comment, which was, "Alois is a great German professional musician and one of the best arranger keyboard players I know." It would have been nice to hear him play something interesting - not some cheesy sax solo that most beginners learn after a few months. There's nothing more pleasurable and inspiring to a musician than to hear another musician play better than him or her. I'm certain Alois is a great player. If so, then play something! If he actually played something very interesting and it was not shown, then it's the fault of the videographer and person who posted the clip. It would be nice to hear Ray Charles play Chopsticks, but I'd rather hear him play Route 66!

On that note, we are now looking at 13 pages of posts about the Event. Not once have we seen a really good demo that makes our musical juices lean away from the Genos. I just watched a video made by some Italian guy, who spent the first 30 seconds vaping. Oh yes, that's real cool. Show off your disgusting habit for 30 seconds. Then when the camera moved to his hands and the keyboard, the 1980s video camera he was using made the Event look like a semi-circle. I skipped through several bits on the time line only to hear him just speaking in Italian. I couldn't find one part where he was playing something useful and revealing about the Event. So, there we have it - another trash video about the Event.

I don't see the Event making any great headway in our market, with a sketchy dealer network that is limited to specific pockets of Europe and Ketron's failure to hire a professional player to demo this so-called "revolution in arranger technology." From what I've heard so far, the only advantage the Event has over the Genos is in the styles. If Yamaha cleans up its operating system, provides better core voices like piano and organ, and beefs up their styles with longer phrases and round robin constructions, the competition will have wasted their time. The knockout punch will come when Peter Baartmans demos the Genos 2.

[Lee Batchelor]

Then later on the first day of the PA5X's release Tony from Bonners came along and posted the perfect demo. He can often sell a keyboard better than the manufacturers themselves. A bit like Peter Baartmans' excellent demos for Yamaha. They make you want to play and sound just like that, even if you are never able to do so.

Good point, Andrew. I think any keyboard maker who releases their new product and lets a bunch of rank amateurs post terrible demo videos before the manufacture hires a pro to do that job, is just plain stupid.

I may be wrong but I don't believe Yamaha has ever put the "cart before the horse." They have never released a product without a pro-level teaser video preceding it. Within hours of its release, Baartmans or some other pro from Yamaha is seen playing the new product. After that, you start to see all the others come out of the woodwork (some very good, but most not) play the same product.

That's how a new product release should be handled. Doing it the other way around seriously delays, if not kills, any chance of that company having an impact. They may produce a somewhat decent product that appeals to several players, but they shoot themselves in the foot at the most critical point in development - getting the thing to market!

[BogdanH]

I agree that we're still tapping in the dark about Event (same goes for Korg Pa5X though). It's just that if we're lucky, sometimes we can catch some interesting detail. In this case (at least for me) it was that blues accompaniment in A. Müller's video. Are there just some random phrases playing in style? Is it some audio file used for accompaniment? We don't know yet.
Right now I just assume that's how Event works and that player can modify/create styles and voices accordingly -if that's true, then Event seems to be a darn good keyboard. Because sound-wise it sure is. I have impression that Event is in many ways "different" to what we (Yamaha owners) are used to and that might be the reason to stay with Yamaha. That has nothing to do with which is better, though. I say that because there's a big chance that next Yamaha keyboard will be totally different too -is the only way to make a progress.

Just sharing my thoughts,
Bogdan

[Jeff Hollande]

Hey Lee :

If you might be interested in A. Müller's craftsmanship, plse visit his own YouTube sites : Alois Müller Genos.

Watch his left hand !

Best regards, JH

[AndrewKeyz]

I agree that we're still tapping in the dark about Event (same goes for Korg Pa5X though). It's just that if we're lucky, sometimes we can catch some interesting detail. In this case (at least for me) it was that blues accompaniment in A. Müller's video. Are there just some random phrases playing in style? Is it some audio file used for accompaniment? We don't know yet.
Right now I just assume that's how Event works and that player can modify/create styles and voices accordingly -if that's true, then Event seems to be a darn good keyboard. Because sound-wise it sure is. I have impression that Event is in many ways "different" to what we (Yamaha owners) are used to and that might be the reason to stay with Yamaha. That has nothing to do with which is better, though. I say that because there's a big chance that next Yamaha keyboard will be totally different too -is the only way to make a progress.

Just sharing my thoughts,
Bogdan

I'd imagine the next big advancement in arranger keyboards would be incorporating AI and reactive playing technology. From what I have seen the PA5X and Event appear to have none of that, nor the ability to expand into that direction.

Yamaha seemed to be going into that direction with the CVP709 and 809.

I'd expect a Genos followup, which I think will have a completely different name again, so not to confuse with the 2.0 firmware upgrade on the Genos to possibly have this quite a bit more. 

[Lee Batchelor]

Totally agree, Bogdan. It all comes down to, "What do you need in a keyboard?"

At the moment, the Event fulfills some serious gaps in Genos technology. On the other hand, all the demos I've seen have shown the player sitting back and listening to the Event basically play itself - kind of like two pilots in a heavy aircraft monitoring everything while the airplane is on autopilot. These "players" are listening to a fancy CD player and when they do play, they don't exploit their own talent. They seem to be fascinated by the sound of the styles 🤣, which I must admit may also compel me to just sit and listen.

We'll just have to wait and see what Yamaha provides as a reply. Didn't someone already say that 🤣?

[Jeff Hollande]

Hi Bogdan :

When I am listening to the Genos' songs played by A. Müller and compare the sound quality with the Event and the PA5X, I have to say the Genos' sound quality is still very good for an arranger made in 2017.

JH

[AndrewKeyz]

Hi Bogdan :

When I am listening to the Genos' songs played by A. Müller and compare the sound quality with the Event and the PA5X, I have to say the Genos' sound quality is still very good for an arranger made in 2017.

JH

In my opinion, soundwise, the Genos is better than the PA5X in almost every department except for strings, those are much better on the Korg (I own both). Guitars can sound good but there are remarkably few electric guitar sounds. Also acoustic pianos are in low numbers in offerings. I didn't even realise the presets sometimes use all 3-4 voices, it's like you are navigating through one touch settings if you compare to the Genos. And sometimes you are left with a split sound in the left hand and sometimes you aren't. It is confusing and doesn't make any sense to me. Yes you can change the individual voices but there is just no logic to the approach how this is done. I remember the little Korg Kross 1 synth I owned before having this same weird approach with some presets including entire beats and others just being independent voices. It's just strange and many presets being unusable. To be fair I had this as well on the Yamaha S80 but there was less of that and not as annoying somehow, those were reserved only for "performance" sounds. On the Yamaha S80 the preset buttons (pianos / organs / etc) for voices would take you to just that. On the PA5X presets take you to grouped voices. No logic.

Korg, I bet would explain this by stating those "preset" buttons are listed as keyboard "set" options but for example this: I click on Epiano and click the first in the list, it is a mixture of two epiano voices. I click guitar and click the first on the list, right hand is nylon guitar and left hand then is split for a pad sound. Is this logical to anyone? I don't think so. Without having registrations this then becomes extremely difficult to use. You can only have 4 dedicated keyboard set sounds against a song, it's like your one touch settings and you don't have direct access to individual sound presets beyond that. I don't like this at all.

Synths are ok on the Korg PA5X but more difficult to navigate through lead sounds which seem better grouped together on the Genos. This is the second Korg I have been disappointed with after ownership. At its price, I find it ridiculous to be honest. I just tried to revoice a midi today on the Korg, and although it is easier to save without that stupid "execute" step on the Genos, the result was starting to sound awful so I stopped. I didn't have that problem on the Genos last week. No more Korg for me unless it's maybe the Wavestation / Wavetable stuff.

[Jeff Hollande]

Thank you for your interesting feedback, AndrewKeyz.

It looks like the Genos ( 2017 ) is still a not to be underestimated competitor for the PA5X and the Event made in 2022/2023, right ?

Reason enough to wait for the Genos' successor before an enduser is able to make his final, best and right choice, IMO.

Best wishes, JH

[AndrewKeyz]

Thank you for your interesting feedback, AndrewKeyz.

It looks like the Genos ( 2017 ) is still a not to be underestimated competitor for the PA5X and the Event made in 2022/2023, right ?

Reason enough to wait for the Genos' successor before an enduser is able to make his final, best and right choice, IMO.

Best wishes, JH

Absolutely, no one should discount the Genos if considering between that, PA5X and Event.

I got frustrated with the PA5X after about 5 months so went back to the Genos.
The styles sound good on the PA5X, really good in certain places even, very funky basslines and inspirational, and they sound even better on the Event going by demos but if your playing isn't enjoyable then that will matter much less.

Another stupid thing on the PA5X; it can only record to MP3! No Wav!  I hope this is addressed in the future but maybe not as it's written into the manual MP3 only. With all the extra expansion space (two small sd slots at the back that can take a 1TB each I believe) I don't understand why.
The keybed is also disappointing on the 88 key version, the main reason I got it. Very noisy and it is getting worse. I reckon any Fatar one will not suffice for me personally. Now looking at swapping the Korg for a Kawai or Nord Grand and use that in conjunction with the Genos. I think that might be the perfect setup for me.

Hopefully we can see the Event screen registration buttons in action. But with styles taking the attention away this may stay hidden from us.

[SciNote]

Totally agree, Bogdan. It all comes down to, "What do you need in a keyboard?"

At the moment, the Event fulfills some serious gaps in Genos technology. On the other hand, all the demos I've seen have shown the player sitting back and listening to the Event basically play itself - kind of like two pilots in a heavy aircraft monitoring everything while the airplane is on autopilot. These "players" are listening to a fancy CD player and when they do play, they don't exploit their own talent. They seem to be fascinated by the sound of the styles 🤣, which I must admit may also compel me to just sit and listen.

We'll just have to wait and see what Yamaha provides as a reply. Didn't someone already say that 🤣?

I'm not in the market for a $5000 keyboard, but I have been following this thread just for curiosity, and I have to agree.  There is one video of the Ketron buried among these 14 pages where it is just an image of the Ketron and the song "Wicked Game" by Chris Isaak is playing in the background.  Maybe I did not take a close enough look at this video or the accompanying text, but I was asking myself, what was I looking at?  Was the instrumentation coming from the Ketron?  Yeah, if the keyboard itself made all of the backing instrumentation, using nothing but its onboard voices and styles (and not just a digital recording of the original song), then that is impressive.  And where was the voice coming from?  But from what I was seeing in the video, no one was actually playing the keyboard!

I know that with an arranger keyboard, part of the appeal is to get a full accompaniment while just playing chords.  And I know that to play a song in this fashion, it still requires talent and that a novice is not going to sound as good as an experienced player.  I also know that this may not really be different than if the keyboardist was playing with a live band and getting a full background from all of the other members of the band.  But where does it start approaching where the keyboard is essentially playing itself, and you might as well be playing a CD or MP3 of the song?

Some keyboards allow playing of the full keyboard, while it still senses what notes are played to determine what the current chord is and it plays an accompaniment based on that chord.  With a mode like that, the keyboardist can still, well, play the keyboard, while still getting a full auto accompaniment.  But what do I know?  I bet at auditions, the person playing the chord and getting the full band and complex melodies will have the fullest, most realistic sound and get the job.

[BogdanH]

Of course it's impossible to expect that we would agree about which keyboard is better... it's like discussing which car is the best. Ok, we would agree that BMW is better than Fiat, but how about BMW vs Audi? -no, I'm not trying to start discussion about that 

Voices.. I have no idea how good Pa5X or Event voices are and I only tried Genos in store for about 15 minutes. But I do know Yamaha PSR-SX voices and all I can say is: not bad, but there's room for improvement. And because PSR-SX is based on Genos... you get the idea. At the end, that's one of the reasons why new keyboards are made.
If someone says "Genos voices are better than Pa5X", then to me, he's only saying that he prefers the sound of Genos voices. I respect that opinion, but at the end, what matter is, what voices sound better to me (or you).

...But where does it start approaching where the keyboard is essentially playing itself, and you might as well be playing a CD or MP3 of the song?...

That's something that many (who don't know about arranger keyboards) already think it's happening. That is, they think that accompaniment is pre-recorded. And the better the accompaniment (style) is made, the more they're convinced about that. And I don't blame them for thinking that way.. because we actually can use audio track that way.
Even further: few posts back I made a doubt if a style is actually used here -even I'm familiar with arranger keyboard.

However viewing from keyboard player perspective, that's quite easy to answer: if prerecorded accompaniment is used, then player must follow (adapt to) the accompaniment. And if player makes a mistake, it is usually very noticeable. In case of using a style, it's opposite: player decides what accompaniment does. This gives the player a freedom for creative playing (i.e. by repeating/inserting certain right hand riff at any time) -which can also maybe convince audience that he's actually playing.

Bogdan

[Jeff Hollande]

AndrewKeyz is one of our Forum members who owns both arrangers : a Yamaha Genos and a Korg PA5X/88 note.

Very interesting ( for me ) to read his honest and very open comments and experiences.

It is always very useful to see and to hear a demo given by pro musicians.
These people mostly give me a very good impression how the sound quality is and which new features are added etc.

The comments given by endusers are very important though.
They are not " selling " the new arranger but sharing the pros & cons.

JH