Loose Sync/Start button

[Lee Batchelor]

Finally, a topic not about the new Genos or PA5X 🙄!

The Sync/Start button on my Genos is "floating" but not attached where it should be. It still works but I must say, it's the first mechanical failure I've seen in 30 years of owning Yamaha keyboards. I'm not too happy about it and it's a further testament to the crappy build quality of the Genos. My Registration 1 button has completely lost its number but that's less of a problem. It's obvious what that button is for.

What's involved in repairing it? Has anyone had this problem? Thanks 😒.

[Gunnar Jonny]

Take a deep dive into the 'plastic fantastic' box, but keep your eyes closed, you might be shocked of how empty the box seems to be.
No wonder that it's light weighted. 

Oh well, as long as it works I guess it's OK. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3VJIsh9gbg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Td0D4r1_ASw

[Mike2]

Lee, I have worked with electronics all my life, so hope this doesn't prove me insane telling you what to try.  Keep tapping that button with your finger, and if you have can of air spray, use it. Keep repeating and tapping, you won't do any harm. If this doesn't do the trick, it may be a mechanical issue.

It's worth trying.  Let me know, or us know.

[overover]

Hi Lee,

Of course, to replace a Style Control button (like the Sync Start button in your case), the Genos case has to be opened and several circuit boards have to be removed first.

In this video (previously linked by Gunnar Jonny) the Main Variation D button is defective and will be replaced. The steps to replace the Sync Start button are identical:
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Td0D4r1_ASw

If you want to do the repair yourself (which you should only do if you have some experience with electronics like this), you should have the appropriate service documentation with you. If you need it, feel free to PM.

By the way, the required spare part (SYNC STOP, SYNC START, START/STOP buttons) has the Yamaha Part Number ZW916300 and costs just under 10 euros in Germany (e.g. at https://www.audio-service.com ). Currently, however, it says "delivery time possible".


Hope this helps!

Best regards,
Chris

[Toril S]

Oh my! Genos is getting old! I believe tye Tyros models were of more solid build. Here we have a guy who gigs almost every day with his Tyros3! Never å problem with it. I would get it serviced by a Yamaha certified store! Now matter how empty it is, there are some pretty delicate circuit boards in there!!

[Al Ram]

Lee,
I had the exact same problem with several Genos buttons . . . .. including the Sync/Start button . . . .

My recollection is that the sync/start button is part of a set of 3 buttons that must be replaced together.
Sync/Stop . . . . Sync/Start . . . .  and Start/Stop . . . . by the way . . . one of this buttons is needed to update the OS.

I contacted Yamaha and they provided me with a list of certified Yamaha Techs in my area (San Diego, CA, US).  I contacted one of the techs and initiated the process for replacement. At that time, the Genos was still under warranty and they replaced the buttons at no cost to me.

I see that you are in Canada, maybe your Genos is still under warranty over there . . . . in the US the warranty is only one year, but i understand the terms of the warranty varies from Country to Country. 

You might want to start by contacting Yamaha/Canada or the shop where you purchased the keyboard.

Hope this helps.

Thanks and have a great day.

[musicman01]

Dear Lee,
No, it's not about a Pa5x that is regularly criticized.
You do not have these problems with the 5x because it is very solidly built!!

As for your problem, probably order those knobs from Yamaha a set of 4 knobs.
Turn the Genos over on a soft surface and remove the plugs.
Open the "plastic" bottom because almost everything is mounted on the top.
Don't worry, the sensitive electronics are shielded by a metal housing, yes you read that right "metal" is the only thing in the whole Genos!
Before you start working on the PCBs that have to be removed at the top to access the defective buttons, discharge yourself briefly by touching the grounding of a socket or a metal tube of your heating.
Pay close attention to the cables, if necessary take pictures with your mobile phone of the connections before you disconnect anything.
As Johnny writes there is not much in it is indeed true, but in a Tyros there is not much in just a power supply board that has now been replaced by an adapter from a notebook at Genos.
As for Tyros they weren't any better than Genos, also all plastic you could see and also buttons that broke and paint that disappeared from the buttons all around the screen.
PS: I should know, I have repaired many Yamaha's in the past.

[Lee Batchelor]

Hi everyone,

Thanks for the replies and suggestions! I have worked on several electronic devices but I'm not sure I want to take a deep dive into the Genos. There is a Yamaha factory repair depot about 50 minutes away from me. I once had warranty work done on a Yamaha piano that was distorting. Hopefully, they're still doing this kind of work.

Mike2 – I tried your idea but I think the tab holding the button has snapped off.
Gunnar Johnny – I watched the second video and it shows the Variation D button as being broken. That's exactly how my Sync/Start button is behaving. The top part of the button is riding low. That's where the hook point is. It's broken. Fortunately, there's enough excursion left in the button to still work, but for how long? It definitely needs replacing.

I use this button a lot for stops. For some songs, I need to add a fill first, and then hit the Sync/Start button quickly. In case you're thinking I should use the Stop button instead, I've never had any luck in coordinating my playing with that button. Therefore, the Sync/Start button gets plenty of use.

The real issue is the crappy quality. I'll ask what Yamaha will do for repair pricing. The keyboard is on year 5 and has done many gigs but it shouldn't be falling apart like a cheap piece of garbage you buy at Walmart.

When my grandson was little, a musician friend bought him a toy keyboard. I don't remember the brand but it was definitely a toy. It had about 48 keys – one size smaller than a 61 key machine, rhythms, and dozens of sounds. It was a poor person's arranger for sure. Since then, three grandchildren have pounded the daylights out of it, and it's in better shape than my Genos, which I baby. Welcome to the modern world of cheapness and insatiable thirst for profit. My three Tyros keyboards and three PSR keyboards never failed me like the Genos has.

[Lee Batchelor]

I just submitted a request form to Yamaha repair. I'll keep you posted as to their reply.

[Toril S]

Wise choice! And no, this should not been happening with an expensive instrument like Genos!!

[Lee Batchelor]

I heard back from Yamaha about "setting up a time to bring it in." While their reply is very prompt, I'd like to know how much this is going to cost. Perhaps, they'll do a good will fix, since I've owned 12 keyboards of theirs over the past 20 years, all of which were pro-level products. As Toril said, "This shouldn't happen to such an expensive keyboard."

[Lee Batchelor]

I received another reply from Yamaha:

Hi there,

The cost of a non-warranty repair would be $70 per hour labor plus the cost of any parts required plus tax. If the repair estimate is over $150, the technician would contact you to advise you of the diagnosis and cost. At which point you can say yes or no to proceed with the repair. If you decline the repair there is a $35 fee plus tax for the repair estimate. For all repairs under $150 you would be contacted after the repair has been completed to make payment of the bill and arrange a pickup appointment.

Many thanks
Yamaha Support

I'm assuming that the repair will likely cost me about $120 with tax included. On the surface, it's not a huge amount compared to the value of the keyboard. On the other hand, my old school thinking is telling me I'm getting ripped off by Yamaha - having spent untold thousands of dollars over the years and never having a structural issue with any of their keyboards. The Genos is different. The sounds are great but they're housed inside a piece of **** container. In a different decade, they would have probably said, "Bring it in and we'll replace the button."

It also irks me that I signed the email with my full name, address, phone number, and email address. And I get a "Hi there"?? What am I? Some kind of cowboy out of the old American west?!

[Patrick]

Hi, all the Yamaha KB i have owned, have had problems: 2100 (disc drive), 3000 (sreen and buttons), 910 (buttons), 970 (main board), so as you know it's all plastic so we're just payed a lot of money for the digital informations and the small amount of informatic circuits inside of the box! I've decided to sold my KB every 3 or 4 years and have a new one! I'm waiting for the new SX series! All the best Patrick

[Lee Batchelor]

Good point, Patrick. However, it's safe to point out that all that technology still must be accessed through tangible, real world objects like screens and buttons. If those gateways are pure garbage, then all that tech is unusable. It's like buying a Rolls Royce, and having the door handles and steering wheel fall off in three years so you can't even use the car!

If buttons or screens fails, you have an expensive piece of junk sitting there that is nothing more than a boat anchor. Yamaha should be ashamed. Why is my grandchildren's $39.00 keyboard physically built better than a $6,500 arranger???

Edit
I think it's time to send a terse email to Yamaha and tell them that I have a real name, I have used their products professionally for years, and that I would have expected more integrity from them.

[maartenb]

The Sync/Start button on my Genos is "floating" but not attached where it should be. It still works

Join the club. You are not the only one. This is a too-common problem with the Genos. There's a weak part in the buttons. Some people have no problems, one person even had two floating buttons on one Genos.

I had a floating button (Multipad 2) even though I barely touched that one. Yamaha repaired my button for free as warranty, and so should they do for you.


Maarten

[Lee Batchelor]

Thanks Maarten. Good to know. I just wrote a rather terse note to the Yamaha repair rep. I'm waiting to see what he or she says. I've basically pointed out the number of Yamaha keyboards I've owned, how they were all built like tanks, that I've owned Korg, Roland, and Nord keyboards and they endured regular use. I mentioned that my Genos was factory flawed (blemish on the surface) and that the buttons are fading or failing all from regular use - NOT abuse. Of all the keyboards I've owned, the Genos was the most expensive and yet the poorest build quality.

I asked the person if he or she can't authorize a warranty replacement, then escalate my request to someone who can. I'm not going to take "no" for an answer. I WILL become their worst nightmare !

[musicman01]

Dear Lee,

I'm sorry you live so far, and not close to Belgium.
I'll do it for you for free!
Max 20 minutes of work.

With kind regards
Luc

[Lee Batchelor]

Nice offer, Luc. Thanks .

I actually heard back from Yamaha. They are now requesting pictures of the Sync/Start button and the worn out Registration Button #1. They may be looking at doing something for me. I'd be happy to pay for parts if they wave the labor. I'll keep you posted as to what they say.

Thanks everyone!

[Lee Batchelor]

Well, Yamaha has let me down. Their service department replies are vague and totally unreasonable.

Here's their latest reply. This is the first time they've mentioned a 2 week turnaround time after six communications!!
Hello Lee
It will need to be left for us for repair. Typical turn around time is 2 weeks if parts are available. If parts are required it will be longer. We do not offer "while you wait service." We have an inspection fee of $35.00 that will be included in the repair if you give the go-ahead. If the repair is under $150.00 we do not provide an estimate.
Kind Regards
Yamaha Canada Music Technical Service

To which I replied:
I'm a gigging musician, which makes a two week time frame totally unacceptable. I'd have to rent another Genos and hope my backups work with your very erratic operating system, not to mention finding one and the costs.
I'll play it until it's time for a new keyboard. So much for impeccable Yamaha build quality ☹.

I sure hope Genos 2 is not of the same build quality or shall I say, lack thereof. This thing is not meant for the stage. I treat it like a kitten, and yet it's falling apart! Perhaps I'll write a rather pointed letter to Yamaha Canada. Judging from the arrogance I experienced from them before, I wont expect much.

My hope was that they'd budge a little on the repair and give some preference to a gigging musician. I guess they just don't give a darn. Otherwise, it seems they have a huge backlog of repairs, which my speak volumes about the build quality of other Yamaha products. At least they're fashionable with the rest of the world's companies. Nobody gives a darn about quality anymore. Welcome to the very profitable 21 century!

[BogdanH]

hello Lee,
I've been following this thread and I can fully understand your (let's be frank) disappointment. In my opinion, if you pursuit this even further (with Yamaha service), you will only become.. angry. And at the end, you can only accept the fact.
What I would do is, I would purchase the needed part from Yamaha and replace it by myself. There are quite some videos on Youtube, where you can see, that not some big skill is needed.

Best wishes,
Bogdan

[Toril S]

Teo weeks is not a long time! I would let them do it! It will be done professionally.

[Lee Batchelor]

Thanks guys. Two weeks is a long time if you were to look at my playing and rehearsal schedule. Things have exploded since Covid restrictions were eased up in spring '22. It's at this time I really need a reliable machine. None of my previous Yamaha keyboards, organs, or synths fell apart like the Genos - and some of those products saw three times the playing activity I'm currently doing.

I've never had such a disappointing response from a once great company. Not only is the physical machine starting to fail prematurely compared to when Yamaha REALLY paid attention to longevity, but I am still fighting with this recent OS update as well. I keep running into unwanted surprises.

I have worked on a significant number of electronic devices. I may just order the part and do it myself, rather than go through the bureaucratic crapola from Yamaha, who are more interested in profit than keeping a long-term customer on their books. Like many here, I have spent thousands of dollars with them. Perhaps I was stupid enough to expect too much from a company that is likely infested with a new generation management that lacks common sense. These parts didn't fail because I was abusive with their creation. They failed because Yamaha got cheep and greedy by using inferior grade materials. They should go good for their idiotic choices.

[Al Ram]

Lee
I understand your frustration . . . .

Here is a possible alternative to maybe have the down time to only an hour or a couple of hours and still have it done by a professional Yamaha Tech.

You can ask Yamaha Canada to provide you with a list of Yamaha certified techs in your area or nearby.  You contact the tech and then take the keyboard for inspection and to determine the parts needed . . . . . the tech then can order the parts from Yamaha and you take your keyboard with you until the parts arrive . . . once the parts arrive, the tech replace and test . . . .

This is what i did here in San Diego, CA . . . . the down time should be kept to a minimum of maybe two hours.

Hope this helps.

Greetings

[Toril S]

Lee, you absolutely have my full sympathy! Unfortunately we see more of this, companies only care about profit.

[Lee Batchelor]

Good idea, Al Ram. I shall check into that.

Agreed, Toril. I've dealt with Honda and Yamaha for years and have had no issues. However, in the past 5 years Honda has been totally controlled by the U.S. They've completely soured the milk from when the Japanese were in charge of design and quality control. And now Yamaha has gone down the same path.

And then there's the conversation I had with the Yamaha marketing manager in Toronto in early 2017, when the Genos first came out in Europe. She told me that the Genos would be available in Canada in about three months and that "I'd simply have to wait." Meanwhile, she reassured me that the wait would be worth it and that I "would just love the new sound because she got hers about three weeks ago." I can still feel that Yamaha knife in my back. Isn't that a brilliant thing for a marketing manager to say? If I were her boss, she'd be escorted out of the building at the end of burly security officer's boot. I've never been so insulted. Perhaps I should have mentioned the $30,000 I've spent with Yamaha over the past years. On the other hand, I doubt they'd care. Sad thing, they used to.

[overover]

Hi all,

When I only had my Tyros4 for a few months, one of the Multi Pad buttons broke. My local music store replaced the broken button for free. I haven't had any broken buttons on my two current keyboards (Tyros5 and Genos).

My tip for all Tyros and Genos owners: Make sure NOT to press the buttons on the upper edge or in the upper third, but rather in the lower third or on the lower edge of the button. This significantly reduces the risk of the plastic tab breaking, which connects the button's upper part to its lower part.


Best regards,
Chris

[Lee Batchelor]

Thanks for the advice, Chris. After seeing the YouTube videos of those buttons, you're right about them being attached at the top. If you hit that spot too hard, it's game over.

Trouble is, when you need to make a fast maneuver for the stops in a song, you don't have the luxury of perfect aim. I was stupid enough to assume Yamaha made the buttons as robust as those on the Tyros. They were bullet proof. But gee, when Yamaha can save (one half a cent on each button) x (the number of buttons) x (the number of keyboards sold) = 💲💲💲💲💲💲💲💲 for them. Need I say more?

Edit I haven't looked yet, but can't the Sync/Start button be mapped to a foot switch? That's a whole new learning curve for live playing but easier than jumping through all the dog and pony show hoops at the Yamaha repair depot 😀.

[Toril S]

I don't have perfect aim because of low vision, but have never broken any button, so it may be that I hit them at lower edge However, a lady poured red wine on the panel of my 2100 at a gig, it was just a few drops, but after that, the button was faulty. As time went by it cleared up a bit, but after that I am always nervous when people saunter past my keyboard during a gig with wineglass in hand

[overover]

Thanks for the advice, Chris. ..

Edit I haven't looked yet, but can't the Sync/Start button be mapped to a foot switch? That's a whole new learning curve for live playing but easier than jumping through all the dog and pony show hoops at the Yamaha repair depot 😀.

Hi Lee,

Yes, the function of the (Style Control) Sync Start button can easily be assigned to a foot switch:

- Press Direct Access button, then press the desired foot switch to open the Assignable display.

- Assign the Function "Synchro Start On/Off" (Category "Style") to the desired foot switch (pedal).

- Close the Assignable display to automatically save the pedal settings in the System Setup.

Note: Pedal settings can be changed again by Registrations that contain different pedal settings. I recommend saving the new pedal settings in at least one "setup registration".

If you want to avoid that the pedal settings are changed by registrations, you can use the Freeze function: Make sure Freeze is off > press Direct Access > Freeze button > make sure only the Pedal box is ticked > press Exit button > make the desired pedal settings (e.g. by calling up a "setup registration") > switch on Freeze).


Best regards,
Chris

[pjd]

I don't have perfect aim because of low vision, but have never broken any button, so it may be that I hit them at lower edge However, a lady poured red wine on the panel of my 2100 at a gig, it was just a few drops, but after that, the button was faulty. As time went by it cleared up a bit, but after that I am always nervous when people saunter past my keyboard during a gig with wineglass in hand

Thanks, Toril. This is such an important message. One shouldn't perch their own beverages on their keyboard either. My super-gigging friend Cathy would always chide people for doing this -- after she spend 100s on getting her own keyboard fixed due to a spilled drink.

Might be a good idea to back up all data, too. Everyone's keyboard is backed up, right?

All the best -- pj