Creating an Estimated Prophet Style

[Michael Trigoboff]

I am attempting to create a style for the Grateful Dead song, Estimated Prophet. I am following these instructions written by Paul Drongowski.

I created a MIDI file using Cubase and exported it as Type 0. I then attempted to use StyleFixer to insert a default CASM section, as instructed by Paul. It didn't work (see screenshot).

As far as I know, the MIDI file has all the right pieces in the right places. If anyone wants to take a look and see if anything is wrong with it, I'd appreciate it. Or, if there's some other software I can use to insert the CASM section, I'd be happy to hear about that.

Thanks...

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[ckobu]

Try the midi2style program, it is intended for such work. You can take it from here.
http://www.jososoft.dk/yamaha/software/midi2style/index.htm
These two videos show how to use it.
https://youtu.be/XZl1RjD5PEI
https://youtu.be/lXRVyJSSMiY

[pjd]

Hi Michael --

I received your personal mail. Sorry to be slow to reply, but I kind of take Sundays off. 

I don't think Jørgen will mind if I quote him here:

"A default CASM section can not be added as the style holds one or more style channels which are correlated to more MIDI channels."

A Yamaha style file can use all sixteen tracks and MIDI channels. I suspect that StyleFixer creates a default CASM for the upper eight tracks/channels: 9 to 16. If there is MIDI data in the first eight tracks, perhaps Style Fixer will not create the CASM, i.e., it doesn't know what to create for tracks/channels 1 to 8?

Or perhaps, two or more tracks refer to the same MIDI channel?

The default CASM assumes the standard style part (track/channel) layout as shown in the Genos Reference Manual at the beginning of the Style Creator section, page 19. The default CASM assumes channels 9 and 10 are percussion and drums, 11 is bass, 12 is Chord 1, etc. It generates the NTR/NTT data according to this layout.

BTW, I don't usually use StyleFixer for creating a CASM, using Jørgen's CASM editor instead. If you need a table of typical defaults, I can throw one together.

Hope this helps -- pj

[Joe H]

Michael,

You might take a look at StyleMagic.  There is a demo you can download, but SAVE is disabled.  After you get all the style Parts on the right channels, you can enter the CASM Editor by clicking on the Part button and set the default settings. (there is an icon at the top right of the CASM Editor for that)  If you find the program useful, you will need a USB drive available plugged into your computer.  The USB thumb drive will serve as a dongle to run the program.  StyleMagic has a lot of editing capabilities for styles as well including an excellent Voice Editor and Drum Editor.  Lots of editing features.

https://www.midisoft.pl/en/

Joe H

[pjd]

Hi Michael --

The JPG shows what to expect in CASM editor.

-- pj


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[overover]

Hi all,

Evgeny Osenenko has updated his "CasmEdit" program again. You can download the latest version (currently V3.1.9.1) here:
>>> http://www.mnppsaturn.ru/osenenko/Main_eng.htm

Note: If you have already installed the program, click "Help > Check update" in the program to update it.

Here is a link to Evgeny's YT channel:
>>> https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCmmXiV1QdKbCGZgQXHTcvVg/videos


Best regards,
Chris

[Joe H]

I have not used either one of these CASM editors, but it looks like the Jørgen Sørensen's editor is easier to use,  but StyleMagic IMHO is the easiest of them all to use if you just click on the default settings icon for each style Part.

Joe H

[Michael Trigoboff]

Thanks, everyone!

I tried to buy StyleMagic YA this afternoon, but the process is complicated and has not worked so far.

I am going to try the other software that people suggested right now. If any of it works for me, SM YA may lose a sale because of their complex purchase process.

[Michael Trigoboff]

pj,

I tried changing the MIDI channel numbers, but nothing I did got me past the StyleFixer error message.

[Michael Trigoboff]

Jørgen's CASM Editor seems to have done the trick. Now I just have to figure out some weird chord phenomena...

[pjd]

Hi Michael --

That's good to hear! I've had good luck with Jørgen's CASM Editor.

Another tool which has been useful is Jørgen's Style Split and Splice. It divides a style file into its MIDI part and non-MIDI part. That's handy when you have a good prototype in hand and need to make a correction in the MIDI part.

The non-MIDI part can be glued (spliced) to some other MIDI part. Thus, one can re-use the CASM and/or OTS data with a different MIDI part. That's how I cranked out many DJX II styles.

If other issues arise, please don't hesitate to ask. 

-- pj

[Michael Trigoboff]

Up until about a month ago I had been using a Yamaha Montage. The Montage has a feature called Patterns, which allows you to associate up to 16 tracks of MIDI data (from 1 to some large number of bars) with one of eight "Scene" buttons. I had a Pattern for Estimated Prophet set up on the Montage; 3 tracks per Scene: drums, bass, rhythm guitar. Because it was MIDI data, it just played through the chosen voice and I did not have to pick out chords with my left hand like you normally do on an arranger keyboard. I had six different scenes: intro, verse, alternate verse, break, alternate break, chorus (these terms don't quite reflect what's going on in the song, but they will suffice for this description).

The Genos has four "main variation" buttons, so I cut things down to three: verse, break, chorus. I had originally put the MIDI for this pattern together in Cubase. Following pj's instructions, I added the appropriate markers and exported the tracks for my 3 items from Cubase into a Type 0 MIDI file. Thanks to Jørgen's CASM Editor, I was able to create a style and load it to my Genos.

It played reasonably well, but not perfectly. Some of the chords were getting pretty mixed up. But then I figured out something very cool:

The drum track in a style does not respond to chords played with the left hand. It just plays the MIDI recorded in the Style for that track. I already had exactly the MIDI I wanted in all three tracks of all of the Scenes of my Montage Pattern. So if I set up all three tracks in the CASM Editor the way a drum track is set up, they would all play exactly as recorded in the MIDI. By doing it this way, I would replicate the way things work on the Montage: hit the appropriate button on the instrument and the backup band plays that part of the song without me having to pick out chords with my left hand.

I tried it and it worked! <effects>fireworks, sounds of cheering</effects>

There are still some things to figure out, for which I would be happy to get help/advice:

• I had to manually assign voices to the tracks in the Channel settings. Is that the best way to do this? Should I add the three MIDI commands to the beginning of each track (cc0, cc32, pc) and set the voices that way? Is there some other way?
• The rhythm guitar and bass are an octave too high. I could fix that by editing the MIDI, but I want to try doing it by dropping the voices an octave. You don't seem to be able to get there via the Channel settings. I have not yet found a way to do that. Does anyone know how?

[pjd]

Hi Michael --

So if I set up all three tracks in the CASM Editor the way a drum track is set up, they would all play exactly as recorded in the MIDI.

True that. Typical Genos/PSR intro and ending sections are made that way, although melodic/chord parts employ NTR ROOT TRANS while percussion/drum parts are NTR ROOT FIXED.

So-called "DJ Styles" have similar programming. DJ styles have the chord progression cooked into them and simply follow the root note to set the actual key/scale.

I agree -- Yamaha's CASM has many creative uses. I pulled an old Jean Luc Ponty tune together much the same way as Estimated Prophet.

It'll be interesting to hear your result -- pj

[pjd]

There are still some things to figure out, for which I would be happy to get help/advice:

I never quibble with success.    However one creates the set-up measure and it works, then "Cheers!"

I find it more difficult to create a style set-up measure using Cubase. I feel like I'm micro-coding in the list editor. So, I do most style development in an ancient copy of SONAR. SONAR issues the initial Sy*** at the absolute beginning of the SMF file and it adds the channel info (bank, program change, channel volume, reverb/chorus sends, etc.) automatically.

For some reason, Steinberg never added this bread and butter handling to Cubase and I wind up adding much of it by hand in the Cubase list editor. 

The SONAR track inspector has transpose widgets and it will octave shift when writing out the SMF file. Pretty much the same as editing the actual MIDI data when preparing the MIDI part.

Hope this info helps -- pj

[pjd]

Oh, forgot to mention...

Michael Bedesem's StyleDump is a great educational tool. I learned a lot by studying Yamaha factory files. The tool can dump CASM and OTS sections, too.

-- pj

[Michael Trigoboff]

I just finished the style! I learned quite a lot doing this.

I used StyleMagic YA, which works very well. The app has a few quirks, though.

SMYA has a CASM editor, but the editor is well-hidden under a couple of UI levels.

I wanted to have the style just play without me having to input chords with my left hand. It turns out that this is possible with the right CASM settings. I have every channel in every section set as shown in the attached image.

At some points, I needed to replace this or that Variation (SMYA calls them "sections"). I did this by creating a new MIDI file. SMYA does not support importing a MIDI file as a new section. You have to import the MIDI file into a new blank style file and then save the section you want as a SMYA section file. You can then import the section file into the style section you want it to occupy (e.g. Main B).

The first time I tried to import a section file, it did not work. It turns out that you have to execute the CASM auto create function before you save the section file. I have no idea how I figured that out. 

Main A is the verse: 12 bars

Main B is the rest of the song. It consists of 3 parts (named according to lyrics that occur in them):
    California: 8 bars
    Fire Wheel: 8 bars
    Thunder: 12 bars

Main D is the first two bars of the verse, which repeat over and over so you can jam to them.

OTS 1 has two instruments I like to use with the style.

To play this song in proper sequence, you would start Intro I with Main A selected. At the end of the 12 bars of Main A, you would switch to Main B for 8 bars (just the California part). Then back to Main A for 12 bars, followed by all 28 bars of Main B and then a repeat of its first 8 bars (California), followed by Main A and then Main D for as long as you want to jam.

Since I don't need to play chords with my left hand for this style, I set up the keyboard so that the entire range of keys can be played with whatever Right voice I select. As far as I can tell, there is no way to set this up within a style, so I have included a registration file that creates this keyboard split configuration.

There are links to the style file and the registration file below.

I hope some of you have fun with this. Learning to play in 7/4 time is a real challenge!

Questions:

One of the voices in OTS 1 is 70sSuitcaseTremolo. When I play this voice directly from the style, the tremolo effect is not there. If I tap on the voice and select it, then the tremolo effect happens. Does anyone know why this would be?

One of the sections was created using the sustain pedal. That section did not sound correctly when played in the style because apparently the sustain control change message (cc64) does not make it from MIDI into a style. Am I correct in this conclusion? Is there a way around this?

Can the keyboard split configuration be included in a style?

style file (SFF2)

style file (SFF1)

registration file

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[Whitecolin11]

i would love to hear the end result or what your trying to achieve as i usually can cobble together ways of doing this

[Joe H]

Michael,

I re-wrote a document some years ago first created by the author of StyleMagic.  It may help you find your way around the program. You can read and download here:

https://app.box.com/s/8ponai97lw6t60gxv9b6va3g4topa7aj

Joe H

[Joe H]

Michael,

Here is the de facto document on the Yamaha Style File Format written by Peter Wierzba and  PSR Professor Michael P. Bedesem.  It is a little more detailed.

https://app.box.com/s/4u4tg842l6zp7vrnglxsox1jxtlb0z6e

Joe H

[pjd]

Hi Michael --

Questions:
One of the voices in OTS 1 is 70sSuitcaseTremolo. When I play this voice directly from the style, the tremolo effect is not there. If I tap on the voice and select it, then the tremolo effect happens. Does anyone know why this would be?

One of the sections was created using the sustain pedal. That section did not sound correctly when played in the style because apparently the sustain control change message (cc64) does not make it from MIDI into a style. Am I correct in this conclusion? Is there a way around this?

Can the keyboard split configuration be included in a style?

As to the tremolo question, the OTS entry must include the set-up info for the tremolo effect, i.e., the entry needs the Sy*** to select and enable tremolo. I use Jorgen's OTS editor to add/change effects. Another possibility is to select the voice with the tremolo effect and save the settings into the appropriate OTS button (slot). Then, save the style since the OTS settings are part of the style file.

Sustain is not allowed in a style. This aggravates some people, but it avoids the possibility of sustain being stuck on (dangling) across section changes. That might be why Yamaha tried to idiot-proof things by disallowing sustain in styles.

There is a Style Sy*** for setting the split point. It's listed in the Genos Data List PDF on page 116.

Hope this helps -- pj

[jwyvern]

Hi Michael --


There is a Style Sy*** for setting the split point. It's listed in the Genos Data List PDF on page 116.

Hope this helps -- pj

According to the data list the sy*** needs to be recorded into a song and it is the song that activates it on playback. It does not appear the instruction can be directly added to a style.
John

[pjd]

Good point, John! This is another situation where songs != styles.

Maybe Michael can give it a try and report back. I don't think Genos will catch fire. 

All the best -- pj

[Michael Trigoboff]

Joe H,

Thanks. That's a great document. Really helpful. (I also found out your last name!  )

In order to use it on my iPad, I needed to convert it to a PDF. Here's a link to it for anyone who wants it.

[Michael Trigoboff]

pj,

Thanks for the tips. I will be trying them out.

Another possibility is to select the voice with the tremolo effect and save the settings into the appropriate OTS button (slot). Then, save the style since the OTS settings are part of the style file.

I would do this on the Genos?

[Michael Trigoboff]

jwyvern,

Thanks for the heads up. I'll try it, but I won't hit my head too hard against the wall if it doesn't work.

[pjd]

I would do this on the Genos?

Correct.

Watching my bracket go down in flames  . — pj

[Joe H]

Joe H,

Thanks. That's a great document. Really helpful. (I also found out your last name!  )

In order to use it on my iPad, I needed to convert it to a PDF. Here's a link to it for anyone who wants it.

I guess I could have converted it to a pdf.  Thomas' English was not that good when he wrote the document, so I clarified and added some of the text to improve the reading of it.  I don't know that this document is offered anymore so I'm glad to share it with others.  When I uploaded it, I realized that I had forgotten some of the important operations of StyleMagic since I only use the program for editing of styles these days.

But now that we can Export and Import individual style Parts as well as entire Sections, it is far more useful for making styles from other style Parts. (Similar to Style Creator Assembly on the keyboard).  My main interest has been EDM for the last several years and there are no Preset styles to work from to create new styles.  So I am beginning to convert MIDI loops and Multi Pads as well as record my own phrases to make the styles I like.  It's been a slow process.  Not to mention I've been buried with work since Covid-19 hit.



Joe H

[Michael Trigoboff]

Quote from: mtrigoboff on Today at 03:06:35 AM
I would do this on the Genos?

Correct.

Thanks, pj. Worked like a charm.

Genos Owner's Manual, p. 60.

[Michael Trigoboff]

pj said:

There is a Style Sy*** for setting the split point. It's listed in the Genos Data List PDF on page 116.

I just looked into this. It turns out that the note number I wanted was 1C, which corresponds to the style section being just one key, the lowest one on the keyboard, E0. I verified that this Sy*** message would set the split point to that note by playing the Sy*** message into the Genos from Cubase. (Cubase can edit a Sy*** message, but for some odd reason it can't create one. So I imported a style into Cubase and started with a Sy*** message from that.)

Once I knew which number I wanted, I inserted the corresponding Sy*** message into a style using StyleMagic YA. I put the style on a flash drive and imported it into my Genos. But the split point did not move, even when I started the style playing.

Then I saved the style back onto the flash drive and looked at it in StyleMagic YA. The split point Sy*** message was gone! It seems that the Genos filters it out.

I tried putting the Sy*** message in two different places: at the end of the SInt section, and right before the SInt section. It didn't work in either place. It got filtered out both times.

Someone said in this thread that the Sy*** message could only work as part of a song. I guess that may be correct. Anyway, I'm officially declaring defeat.

[Joe H]

Michael,

Yamaha engineers have made great effort to prevent us players/users from corrupting the style files.  Any messages that are filtered would probably do just that... corrupt the style file.



Joe H