Let us get real-- for those who question

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi
How many times have you mixed a song and failed ??

How do these pros get that feel???

We see all the videos's and wonder -- Still you follow and fail.
We never get anywhere near what we all want.
will we ever???
It is all a conumdrum!
We try, but the elites have one over us
What is the trick to all of this??

HAPPY NEW YEAR TO ALL THE FRUSTRATED AND TRYERS!!!


All the best
John

[overover]

Hi John,

It's actually very easy to create a "good" mix that sounds "good" (e.g. powerful and at the same time balanced and transparent) on different monitoring systems:

1. Good studio monitor speakers with an additional, optionally switchable (!) studio subwoofer

2. Studio headphones (preferably open or semi-open system) for the details

3. As much as possible
Experience


Best regards and Happy New Year,
Chris

[mikf]

Honestly John, I don't think many of this worry as much  about this as much you. We know we are not trying to produce platinum selling records, just trying to make some listenable music.  I listen to many many songs posted on this site, and without doubt most of them are not world class. But I don't think I have ever heard one I thought it would have been great if the mix was better.
And keep it in perspective, you are working with a Genos and some software. My brother's recording studio cost upwards of 150,000. Just one of his microphones cost more than your Genos. And he was an amateur enthusiast, not a pro. The studio pros have world class musicians playing top of the line instruments, massive mixing desks, and top of the line sound processing. It's a different world and should be.
Mike

[Mike2]

I think if we just relax and play the instrument we have, most of that frustration will be gone.  Enjoy what you have, and lower your New Year expectations...works for me...Happy New Year!!

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi
It would be nice to get your own music up to cd standard to store your own library progress
I will keep going as i am finding out more each day and each failure spurs me on.
You would not beieve it, but as i am trying hard my flaming left ear is now waxed up and i am hearing in mono at the moment.
Always something in the way.
I wonder if you work on headphones a great deal , does your ears get waxed up quicker? . More blocked sinuses probably.
Out tomorrow to get some OTEX for a de -wax Might as well get a full car wash!!!


All the Best
John

[DrakeM]

John,

I get some really nice mixes just using the keyboard song creator.

Here are my steps (if they might help you).

Once I complete a couple of the mains of the custom style I record the song on the keyboard's WAV recorder. Now this record is not the full song as I have only part of the style done.

I listen to the recording and ADJUST the volumes and record the same piece again. I will do this several times to get it right.

I continue to then construct more mains to complete the song. But in building them I use the volume settings used in the mains I have already completed. That keeps the style uniform in sound. As I have stated many times this process takes about 8 hours (or more) and several days. I never try to complete the process in one day or even two.

When I think I have the best style put together, I then work on adding my vocals (ie find my KEY to sing the song in). Once I have that figured out, I will then record the song using the keyboard. I then listen to the recording and if my vocals are too loud or to soft I go back and adjust ALL the styles parts, either up or down about 5 notches to match my vocals. I record the song again and listen. I will have to adjust the WHOLE style volumes again (either up or down a bit more). I repeat this step until I have it right.

Once that is done I record the whole song on the keyboard. Then I play the WAV file of the song using VLC Media Player (free program) and engage the compression feature include with VLC and record that sound with Audacity as in MP3 on my PC.

I then take the MP3 into Audacity and use the Effects/Normalize to finish the recording off.

Hope that gives some new ideas to maybe try.

Regards
Drake 

[mikf]

.......It would be nice to get your own music up to cd standard to store your own library progress
I will keep going as i am finding out more each day and each failure spurs me on..........
John

What we can produce on the modern arranger is amazing for the cost .... and better than ok ......for a bunch of amateur musicians.
But CD quality recording .... if that is what your interest is then maybe you are in the wrong movie. I have been in real recording studios and seen what this takes in cost, expertise and the musical ability of studio professionals. Different level altogether. It's like me  - a 76 year old - thinking if I train enough I can get in the olympics.
Mike

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi mike
I like that one . I am 70 and training but need a magic pill then.
It is just nice to get into that dream and keep trying.It is what dives me even at my age
I get very close , but then once on your hi-fi or car, you realize how far you are out.
I find using monitors sorts the bass out best and headphone for checking the stereo.
My sticking point is to get more warmth into what i achieve.

All the best
John

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi Drake

I do use the song creator to change a style and find Doo (a german site ) great for styles .
I change them to what i want if i get a style
I know a lot of people use Audacity and normalize and maybe use the limiter to raise up to -3db.
I think maybe where  i am going wrong is changing too much in Cubase and coming away from the original idea.
I have had a rest this week because of a head block and the ears feeling waxed up. Might have got a little virus or headcold.
I seem to be hearing in mono at the moment. Frustrating.
I will get some stuff for the ears or may have to go and get syringed. I have not got Covid, but my lug holes need a boost!!
What i will do now is not change things in the mix too much and pay more attension to a reference track.
It is great learning, but can get frustrating at times where you lose focus and go back to square one.
Big thanks for your methods.

I have had another crack at it tonight and matched the reference file as good as it can get.
Added a little dynamic air to the lead and funny enough it sits better in the mix. also stuck a reverb on the master bus but no setting and that just takes the rough edges off.
I am quite satisfied at this stage  and just put Gulfoss on master buss to give a 10% recovery and tame and that just gave all a clearer lift retaining the warmth.
I have been reading up a lot on mastering and always it says ,do as little as possible and i know you can keep going and mess things up.
This time i will just use a couple of small touches and bring the level up to streaming.
I wished more would get involved as it is fun and discussion is best especially if you have not been trained  by Abbey road studios
This all keeps the brain cells going!!
I luv that comment It is like a 70year old training for the Olympics. I need another can of Spinnach!!



All the best
john    

[EileenL]

I have always been quite satisfied with just playing my keyboard and getting the best from it by adjusting effects and Pans and reverb. Most who hear my songs like the quality of them and are quite happy with the end result. When you mess around with all these programmes the finished object always sounds to electronic and false to me. It loses all feeling.

[Paula]

I want to know what I sound like just playing the key board and singing I use the quick record , that is what I sound like and that is what an audience will hear that is me  all is live playing and I dont want to change that
    Paula ..... Happy New Year

[EileenL]

My own thought's too Paula. I like to add my own interpretation to a song I play and not copy what is on a CD produced by professionals. Takes all the fun out of live music.

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

hi
I know what you are saying, but i put my stamp on playing a song. I like to get it as close in quality as i can. That is probably just me. why not try to improve!!
A lot of songs played live sound as though the expression is missing and sound samey, so there are many sides to a discussion.
Like i said it would be nice for a lot of people to have input so we all improve.
This is what this forum should all be about.
There has been a lot of people explaining how they record and finish a song and that is where all this should be going in my view.
I bet quite a few peole would like to get their own work to a high standard and somehow like me have been thrown sideways at times.
It would be great to get tips on this  and this should be the right place where we all can exchange ideas.
I am learning all the time and in mixing it is all about the little things that add up to a big thing, if that makes sense , but all takes time to understand.
Well, this is my 10 cents. I am not frightened at being humble as knowledge is the key.

All the Best
John

[Paula]

My own thought's too Paula. I like to add my own interpretation to a song I play and not copy what is on a CD produced by professionals. Takes all the fun out of live music.

Hi Eileen
when I Learn a song, I go on you tube and I hear the song by many different ones who have made the song famous  all generally are performing in a different style some may do the song in country , some big band ...laten rock it all varies  and each one of these big names may of had a hit from this same song... there for I can also make this song my own if they did... why cant I ?
      Im with you Eileen   Happy New  Year
        Paula    PS I love the Genos
when I finish the song or through out the song I do a quick record to see if I need adjustments and make changes in the key board , MIXER VOICES MULTI PAD ETC. all done with key board

[browzer]

I can understand the views from all sides (John, Mike and Eileen), because of my very limited ability I don't even try to achieve anything near perfection and just happily settle if my efforts sound quite good for me.  It's a different story if for example I'm buying headphones, speakers or a stereo system though since I spend ages auditioning equipment and when you come across the one that sounds head and shoulders above the others it can blow your socks off with the quality. Unfortunately in most cases I can't afford them and have to settle for living within my means and try to acheive the best I can with what I've got (but I know the equipment exists ).

Ronnie

[pjd]

Hi John --

I've been meaning to reply for a few days.

I can't help you directly with mixes, etc., but I observe a few trigger words in your self-appraisal: "fail" and "expectations".

Perhaps you're too hard on yourself or self-critical? It's good to criticize one's work, but at some point, those feelings can become too negative and counter-productive. Reading articles about musicians great and not-so-great, no one seems completely satisfied with work that is supposedly "finished." Sometimes I have to tell myself "Close enough for rock'n'roll" and move on. 

Anyway, I just want to offer encouragement!

All the best to ya -- pj

[Lee Batchelor]

I know what John is trying to accomplish. I did the same thing during the opening isolation period of the Covid problem a year ago. Since my live stage work was over for a while, I engaged in recording. Like John, I sought a finished product that would be on par with David Foster's work. I quickly realized that wasn't going to happen.

John, I encourage you to seek professional level sound but don't let it kill you. The David Fosters of the world have millions of dollars in budget and people who have devoted a lifetime perfecting their trade. I'm sure they delete a lot of files that they thought were substandard too.

Try to think of who your audience is. The living room players are "their own audience," perhaps along with a family member or two. To them, when everyone feels good about the song they played, they've justified their musical existence. This is very healthy. What are you really trying to accomplish? Do you want to market what you record? Do you want to just record yourself and listen to the Genos over a nice sound system? Are you leaving a legacy for your kids or grandchildren, as the case may be? Whatever your goal, continue to aim high but be realistic.

And now a practical note
I learned that creating a final mix using my Yamaha HS8 studio monitors often resulted in a terrible sound when played over a quality home stereo. And yet, the Yamaha monitors are considered as one of the best monitors on the market. So, what went wrong? I failed to understand the sonic relationship between studio monitors, which are maximally flat, and home stereo, which is often painted with a different sonic brush.

For example, after you discover how loud a certain bass instrument should be, its EQ setting, compression, and other parameters that make it sound great on your home stereo, then learn to set that same sound on your monitors. The setting may make no sense at all and actually sound horrible on your monitors, but if you do that for each instrument, you'll make good progress.

Another hint: Don't look at the screen parameters too long. Close your eyes during the monitor playback and paint the sound with your hearing instead of fancy response curves and dancing needles. I tend to make that mistake when doing the final mixdown. I watch all the fancy visual clues on my two screens and completely ignore the actual sound of my creation. When things "look okay" on the screen, we assume the sound is also perfect. It's not. Far from it. Remember that big notch at 55 Hz? That shouldn't be there because the response is supposed to be flat, and yet, the mix sounds really good. Moral: Forget that dumb notch. Let it be.

After you feel you've done your best, play your creation over several sound systems. Start with mp3 players and go up to large home theater sound, if that's available to you. If you can claim you achieved a good sound over that spectrum of gear, then you'll feel like you're winning.

Don't kill yourself over this stuff, John. We need you !

Stay safe everyone...

- Lee

[overover]

Hi John,

I get the impression that you edit / mix relatively little on the MIDI level, but rather a lot on the Audio level. I recommend to do more on the MIDI level.

You could download the current demo version (11.3.1.14312) of the "Midifile Optimizer XI" for testing:
>>> https://www.midiland.de/de/OptimizerXI_DLdemo.htm

Important: Under "Options > Show Settings> tab MIDI > Output" set the used MIDI port (when using the Yamaha USB-MIDI Driver set to "Digital Workstation 1") as well as with the instrument "Yamaha Genos".

In the Options tab "Yamaha DSPs", make sure that the ticks "DSP management" and "All DSP parameters" are set. The checkmarks "Master Equalizer" and "Vocal Harmony" should NOT be set (unless you want to be able to change these settings via MIDI files).

The following checkmarks should be set in the "General" Options tab:
- Intelligent Transpose
- Automatic sounds converter
- Automatic sy*** insert
- Import and show lyrics
- Show XF chords
- in extra window
- Menues and text in english


After you have recorded your style playing as a MIDI file directly on the Genos, save the file on a USB stick, connect the stick to the computer and open the MIDI file in the "Optimizer". When played there, it sounds the same as it does directly on the Genos (which of course has to be connected to the computer/Optimizer via USB-MIDI).

Click on the "Sounds" and "Drums" buttons to open the Voice List and the Drum Editor (Ch 10). Via "Edit > Drums" you can open a second Drum Editor window for Ch 9. With the "Drum Splitter" you could define a third channel as a drum channel. So you can work with three different drum kits if necessary.

Use the SPUR button to open the "List Editor". A right-click on "SPUR" opens the "Key Editor" (Piano Roll Editor).

The DSP buttons give you direct, graphic access to all System and Insert Effect blocks.

A click on "Equalizer" opens a graphic interface for the Part EQ (semi-parametric, i.e. with adjustable center frequency)  for the active channel.

A click on "Controller" opens the "Controller overview" window. There you can quickly set the values ​​for all 16 channels for all used controllers (e.g. #10 Panorama).

By double-clicking on an entry in the "Sounds" window you can exchange the voice of the relevant MIDI channel as you like. Important: In order to load the original Effect settings (and also to write them into the MIDI file), the check mark "when changing Voices also load the corresponding DSP and settings" must be set!

The only downer is that you cannot save the changes with the DEMO version of the Optimizer XI. The full version (which only runs with a USB copy protection dongle) costs 200 euros. But the program is worth every penny in my opinion. (I've been working with the "Optimizer" since version 4.  )


Best regards,
Chris

[GregB]

Hi all,

A few ideas --

1 - When you're mixing, interweave your listening to your own mix with listening to some commercial recordings that you want your mix to sound like.  Listen to those on the same equipment you're using to do your mix.  That'll help you "calibrate" your ear, to help with good balance in your mix and with the EQ of your mix.  This helps to even overcome mildly substandard studio monitoring.  Substandard monitoring isn't just a speaker problem; it's also related to the room and speaker placement, particularly bass reflections and resonance; professionals will take care to EQ their setup - flat response in a monitor is only the beginning.

2 - If you're getting to the point where you're losing your high frequency hearing, involve someone in doing your mix who can hear higher frequencies, at least to 10kHz or so, to ensure there's not something you're missing.  In particular, essing in the 5kHz-10kHz range has to be managed in your mix, ideally with a purpose-specific de-esser, but a properly adjusted multiband compressor will work too.  (Don't try to de-ess with an EQ, or you'll lose clarity.)

3 - For the vocal clarity vs warmth issue, consider using a fundamental frequency tracking equalizer in your DAW.  An example is the vocal character component of Harrison's Vocal Flow plug-in.

- Greg

[mikf]

John is obviously very interested in producing commercial quality recording, it seems to be his main driver. He is not alone in this. There are hobbyists who spend a lot of time and money trying to achieve this. However, very few of them are buying and playing arrangers, or on this forum. They go a very different route. And most are doing it on original music. Meanwhile most arranger owners are preoccupied with learning to play as well as they can, and while that doesn't mean they want to make bad recordings, it means things like spending hours on "mastering" are not high on their agenda.
I am far from an expert in recording, but have had enough exposure to observe two things - that mastering is most frequently used to improve the overall arrangement and its balance. The basic sound quality is mostly captured on the original  track recording. And secondly, that there is no perfect mix. It depends on playback sound equipment and personal preference. It is said that Phil Specter would do final mix on car speakers because he thought that's what the kids listened to more often than not.
Mike

[Lee Batchelor]

When you're mixing, interweave your listening to your own mix with listening to some commercial recordings that you want your mix to sound like.  Listen to those on the same equipment you're using to do your mix.  That'll help you "calibrate" your ear, to help with good balance in your mix and with the EQ of your mix.

Excellent points, Greg. To Greg's thoughts, John I forgot to mention that mixing should be done in short sessions. If you listen to a mix long enough, it will sound great - until you rest for a few minutes or hours, and then listen to it again. You'll wonder what you were thinking. It will sound terrible.

My first recording to a DAW was about 20 years ago and I only had cheap computer speakers for mixing. I ended up playing a commercial quality mix through them and compared my own mix to it. I got it fairly close and the end product sounded pretty good on most systems. Thanks for bringing that point up too, Greg!

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi Lee and to evryone that is giving their views

I have been taking in all the comments and very thankful for that.
I now agree that the midi file that you have recorded has to be as you would like it to be100%  and that is where the main work has to be. Yes, it does sound great on my AKG702's headphones at that point.
I am doing a song at the moment and put that in Cubase and recording each track to Wave even the drums which i split into separate tracks with Disolve.
I have the Edison Lighthouse , Love Grows reference on a separate track.
My latest effort--
I have got very close a I can possibly get to the clarity, warmth and feeling.
I have  Sonarworks reference and use Neutron and tonal balance to get in the ballpark. The gainstaging is not a big deal recording from the Genos as it always lands up in the 15-18 LUF region.
I go to my Focal Alpha 50 Monitors to check the stereo an quality  and make a few adjustments , then back to check on headphones on the stereo again
Now at the stage where i am happy with the mix.
Bounce down to single track and bring up Ozone 9 to finish and bring song to stream level.
It is normally then when out of Sonarworks and back to Hi- fi and  computer ,things sound a little thin or on the toppy side.
The soundproofing in my room is as good as it gets, but now with that my bass is never to boomy and that is all ok in that area.
This time i took some time matching the reference at all stages and hopefully things will improve.
All of this is the learn curve and when you start learning about EQ, Compression and stereo width, dynamic air etc to a song things can go a little off the mark untill fully understanding. I am finding out it is the small moves that count, not reshaping everything .
I am not having much fun at this moment as one ear is blocked up and just learnt in UK that you now have to pay for an ear syringe. So much for paying into out National Health all of our working lives. Even old people in homes are now forgotten and are treated without dignity like my other halfs mother. The big advice thing today is stay out of hospitals and homes if you can. If you cannot reach food or drink nobody helps you today as cheap labour and the equity markets are profiteering. Sorry little rant!!! at the end!!  .
One thing i would like to ask is --"Does wearing heaphones a lot contribute to earwax buildup"?? Any Doctors of music out there.


All the Best
John I'm an all waxed Up revived 45 or 70' not yet 8"!!

[mikf]

Excessive use of in-ear phones can  exacerbate the problem, but over ear phones have no effect.
Spec savers can sort you almost immediately for 55 pounds.

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi Mike I know this is slighty off subject
I wonder how qualified specsavers are?? I do not want someone who is learning or not qualified cheap labour and these private businesses worry me. It is the way our country is going.it is generally hard enough now to get appointments. People in care homes today pay a £1000 a week and get treated as they do not exist.
I wish i could see a proper doctor which also does not exist today. They seem to be jack of all trades now and generalize and do get things wrong.
Anyway i have an appointment to see a nurse at my local Gp to see what she discovers Some surgeries do syringing or suction  and most do not now , so it may have to be 50 quid in the end. I do only wear open headphones AKG 702's . Also have a pair of noise comfort Bose for all music , but do not wear all the time.
I have minor scoriasis  and get flakey around the ears and have to daily put cream on . it may put flakey skin in your lug holes (canal) and build up as well. Horrible getting older Huh!!

If i put £10 on Swindon Town to Beat Manchester City on friday night i will be able to laugh at £50 and and a few £100 left over!! "Pigs may fly he says"!!!

All the Best
John     ps Big thanks Dr Mike!!

[Lee Batchelor]

Hi John,

Some people are prone to ear wax-ups. My doctor used to syringe them out for me but the profession seems to be getting away from that. It does carry risk. In the past few years, I've used a product called Cerumol https://www.healthnavigator.org.nz/medicines/c/cerumol/. You likely have an equivalent product in the UK. It contains peanut oil so if there is anyone close by with a peanut allergy...The stuff is very gentle and works wonders.

As far as headphones go, they can cause ear infections to get worse. I prefer monitoring with decent speakers and a good room.

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi Lee
In the Uk we have Otex Express. It does contain peroxide which is supposed to eat away at the wax and it bubbles and tickles in your ear for about 5 minutes , but not now after 4 days ,so i think it is broken down ,but not coming out
I did use an older dispenser and read you should throw away after 9 weeks
Oh dear!!!
I purchased some more and nothing is happenning afer 4 days now .
Feels like my ear is loaded with fluid and not much has come out yet.
If i shake my head , i can hear inner scouling which i think is wax moving about
Tommorrow i will find out.
I do get this sort of ear problem every ten years approx.
It feels like i am stuck in a closed box or that feeling you get underwater. Thanfully no pain , only annoyance.which makes you tired and grumpy!! .


All the best
John      Ps. You do realise without ears and no sound it would be awful not to enjoy music

[mikf]

Never had to use it yet but my friend did and said it was way better than the old way the doc or nurse used. NHS stopped doing it because of Covid and the old method they used which had risk. But Specsavers saw the opportunity and has in invested state of the art enclosed vacuum system which I am told is a huge advance on the old way, and you get fairly immediate service. The Otex description sounds like the old way or what I might try free at home.
You better get used to paying for some health services. It's the way it's going to be if you want things done fast. And maybe done better.

[Lee Batchelor]

I read the leaflet on Otex Express. It breaks up the wax into pieces. If those pieces are wound around the middle and outer ear hairs, they'll stay stuck. I'd opt for a different product. The Cerumol I mentioned turns the wax into a liquid or easy running paste. The wax will just fall out.

Apologies to the weaker stomachs out there for talking about icky stuff, but John is one of our own. We need to get him back to normal hearing so he's not so grumpy !

[Del]

I got a peanut stuck in my ear once and someone said pour chocolate on it then it would come out a treat....   

[Lee Batchelor]

There you go, John. Listen to Del !