Multitrack automation

[ckobu]

Hi overover,

what you say would be logical and should work. But unfortunately that is not the case. MIDI multi Recording mode displays each channel as Right1, Lef, Right2, Right3, M.pad 1, Mpad2 .... Phrase 2. On two different channels we can set Right 1 (say 1 and 8 ). The melody plays on the 1st channel, and we put the 8th in Recording. When recording automation we change the volume to Right 1 but we do not hear any change on the instrument playing on channel 1. It is blind operation and such automation makes no sense.

[mikf]

As I stated on earlier post, there is no internal final mix option on these keyboards. I think there should be, especially on the most expensive models. Using the step record function is not a realistic alternative. You want to be able to hear and adjust the tracks relative to one another in real time. I never really understood what the OP meant by 'automate' but I read it as being able to do what I describe above, adjust volume/pan on a track, not just overall but at every moment in time as the music progresses. I call that final mixing and it is an essential step on multitrack recording, but it's just not possible on any of these keyboards.
Mike

[overover]

Hi overover,

what you say would be logical and should work. But unfortunately that is not the case. MIDI multi Recording mode displays each channel as Right1, Lef, Right2, Right3, M.pad 1, Mpad2 .... Phrase 2. On two different channels we can set Right 1 (say 1 and 8 ). The melody plays on the 1st channel, and we put the 8th in Recording. When recording automation we change the volume to Right 1 but we do not hear any change on the instrument playing on channel 1. It is blind operation and such automation makes no sense.

Hi Casper,

thanks for your advice. I have to admit that I haven't tried this mix function myself yet. And yes: in a way it is something like "flying blind".

I usually always use a suitable computer program to post-process MIDI files, including MixMaster, Midiland Optimizer XI or other tools from Jørgen Sørensen, Michael Bedesem or Etienne Volbragt, and of course I also use various DAW programs.

By the way: MixMaster offers e.g. a very simple function to insert a fade-in via CC11 (Expression) afterwards. The only disadvantage is that the Expression events are always inserted on ALL Channels. If you only want to fade-in a certain Channel (as requested by vadesriux), you can simply delete the Expression events in the relevant bars on the other Channels.

I have attached a picture of this MixMaster function (List View > Other > Process Events > Fade Expression In/Out Custom).


Best regards,
Chris

[attachment deleted by admin]

[ckobu]

In music processing, the term automation means the possibility of subsequent recording of some controls (volume, panorama, effect ...) on a channel that already has a soundtrack.
Such a process is not possible on Yamaha keyboards and there is no need to look for alternative solutions because they simply do not exist.
MIDI recording mode has basic functions and if someone wants to do a more serious mix on a song, they have to use a computer and external programs.

I already pointed out in my post # 10, MixMaster is a free program with which this action can be done in a few strokes. Watch the video from that post and it will be clear to the biggest layman why I say that. Everything is so simple if we want to spend about 10 minutes in the initial connection and setup of the program. Once we get used to this kind of work, it becomes a game for children.

regards, ckobu


P.S. I'll put the link on the video again, because it seems to me that no one had the nerve to watch these two minutes of material showing exactly what @vadesriux was looking for.

https://youtu.be/JMwieMqIovw

[vadesriux]

Thanks again for your help.

[mikf]

 cboku
Not so simple. Of course I could handle all that technically but it's impractical and undesirable. My computer is in my office, my CVP in a sitting room at opposite ends of a very big house. I'm not about to relocate everything. People who buy CVPs generally have no interest in that kind of interconnectivity. They are buying an integrated drawing room instrument. Yamaha should address this shortcoming in an   $8000 instrument.
Mike

[vadesriux]

Again off topic... CVP is not for this post...

[Fred Smith]

Not so simple. Of course I could handle all that technically but it's impractical and undesirable. My computer is in my office, my CVP in a sitting room at opposite ends of a very big house. I'm not about to relocate everything. People who buy CVPs generally have no interest in that kind of interconnectivity. They are buying an integrated drawing room instrument. Yamaha should address this shortcoming in an   $8000 instrument.

Or, you should buy an instrument that meets your needs, Mike.

Cheers,
Fred

[mikf]

Or, you should buy an instrument that meets your needs, Mike.

Cheers,
Fred

Fred - I thought I had done. The inability to mix the midi on the keyboard frankly came as a surprise after I had bought it, (in fact had bought two of them) because it's not something I need every day.  While its a bit irritating it's not enough of a deal breaker to make me change because the CVP ticks most of my other boxes and I know of no other similar keyboard that addresses this without giving up some of the other advantages. I would just like Yamaha to address it in future models, and  I believe they will one day if enough people raise it. Mind you, even if they did, I have about $15,000 invested in the models I already have, so would I change ...?..

Cheers
Mike

[mikf]

Again off topic... CVP is not for this post...

Its not off-topic. These top end models all share the same midi capability, so if Yamaha address it on one, they will all benefit.
Nor were the previous comments in the string particularly off-topic, where it was recognized that it could not be done on the keyboard so members explored and suggested alternatives.
This is a member forum, not a company technical support site. If you post a question or topic, people chip in with replies and suggestions, and other members may have an interest in similar or related topics, so strings can wander, take turns, get off-topic. It is this friendly, helpful and conversational tone that has made this site both successful and long lived. Only if the string wanders into obviously inappropriate areas or harsh language will the moderators take steps to curtail the thread. If you think the string is not adequately or appropriately addressing your original question there are polite ways of re-stating this or indeed just ignoring it.
You have been a member here for only a few days, but twice on this string chided members for not directly addressing your question. Whether you intended it or not, it comes across as 'don't waste my time'. Hmmmmm ....
If you wish your questions answered very briefly, directly and narrowly you can of course try Yamaha technical support. I can assure you that there it will not get off track, lengthy or conversational. That would be your prerogative.
Mike   

[vadesriux]

Hi Mike.

First of all I have no intention of desrespecting anyone here. And I didnt. I tried to maintain focus on the thread nothing else. Fair to say your question is about multitracking and because of that I didnt say anything. You are also right when you say everyone will benefict from others answers. Fair enough also.

But now let me tell you about being rude, as you implied here. I posted a question on the Genos forum (also about multitracking - only to inscrease the chance others with knowledge could answer) and had that post deleted without any communication from the site. And you say I am being rude... Let me tell you. That is being rude. You are a moderator here. Feel free to do as you like.

[mikf]

Posting under the most appropriate topic heading is always helpful, but doesn't really make any significant difference to replies, because members tend to scan all recent posts rather than view by heading.  The other post was a straight duplicate and was seen as just a posting error, rather than something you did intentionally. Because replies had already been made to the other post, this one was removed, and not seen as a big deal, and certainly no slight was intended. Just a tidying up, and in regarding it as rude you are reading way too much into it.
Mike

[vadesriux]

Thank you for your answer and for being reasonable. I will try to be also.

I understood now why my post has been deleted but as I said no one had explained why until now.

Thank you.

[janamdo]

It is always annoying when a moderator removes your ( i mean my) post
At that moment you are asking for something to solve and then someone is removing it 

[mikf]

That is not what happened, the replies were already being made to the first post when the duplicate was removed. It is obvious from the timing, frequency and depth of responses on this thread that no-one was obstructed from help in any way here.

[panos]

As I stated on earlier post, there is no internal final mix option on these keyboards. I think there should be, especially on the most expensive models. Using the step record function is not a realistic alternative. You want to be able to hear and adjust the tracks relative to one another in real time. I never really understood what the OP meant by 'automate' but I read it as being able to do what I describe above, adjust volume/pan on a track, not just overall but at every moment in time as the music progresses. I call that final mixing and it is an essential step on multitrack recording, but it's just not possible on any of these keyboards.
Mike

Hi Mike,
Song Creator's Step Edit is not only used to record a song step by step.
We can record the song in just one take and we can add the pan or any other effect by adding a midi command step by step.

Of course,you are right, this will take too much time and unfortunately a looooot of copy-paste

We usually work with step edit with the styles where the bars are not too many as an entire song.

I don't know though while you can add a pan on a pre-recorded (midi)style part on Style Creator with the data wheel and save it,
you can not save it on a pre-recorded part of a midi channel on Song Creator (I think Song Creator is called differently on Genos and SX).

For the volume change,if it just one midi channel, you have to change each note's volume in Step Edit too(or add or delete a wrong note,or correct it e.g from note C# to note C, etc).

Unfortunately for those who have expensive synthesizers and likely for those who have just a cheap keyboard or a midi keyboard,
if you want to create a song that will sound more "pro", you have to use a digital studio on the pc.

[Wim NL]

It is posible to play a song track and record the automation and the played track on another song track only you can't hear the result when recording.

As Chris said "in a way it is something like "flying blind""

[mikf]

Panos - like you said, maybe possible, but not practical. It's not just a few notes or even a whole track it's every track when you do a mix.
Mike

[chax]

Hello Ckobu,
I have followed your You tube tutorials and gained a lot. However, there are two issues that I want to bring out .I will refer to your Tuto on Genos Style Recording on CWBandlab, as applied to SX900 also. I am using SX900.
AS per tutorial the recording and playback of Midi from PSR SX900 to Computer and vice versa is perfect but two things are happening.
(a)   On playback of the midi recorded in the Computer, the style accompaniment LEDs in KB mixer light up instead of channel LEDs of Song.
(b)   If only some standalone drum notes are played manually from KB then it is not getting recorded at all on chs 9 or 10 in the CW. It is always going to Track 1 and that too distorted. Also the Event Inspector shows Channel 1 for all tracks, is fixed and not changing. I am using your useful Midi recording Template.
Can you kindly resolve these issues?
Grateful
Chax 

[ckobu]

a)The Style lights should be on. This is set in the MIDI keyboard settings. In this case, the instruments from Cakewalk play properly because they are activated directly from the Style. If this setting is directed towards the SONG channels of the keyboard (Port 1), some instruments would need to be adjusted further.

b)Drum re-recording is recorded on Channel 1 because the instrument (drum) is active on Right1. He was directed towards Channel 1 in Cakewalk. You can simply copy the recorded elements to channel 10 and solve the problem.

Not where the Event Inspector is, what part do you mean?

[chax]

Thank you for the valuable explanations.
Re Event Inspector , in the recording or playback mode( with the template) the channel number in Event Inspector is blank for any track selected.
Chax

[ckobu]

"...If you select multiple notes, the Event Inspector module displays the note value if all selected note values are the same. If the note values are different, the Event Inspector does not display anything..."

[chax]

Hi,
Issues Resolved
Thankyou
Grateful
Chax