5GB or more Expansion memory-Yamaha you can do it!!!

[metcam]

Now we have all free packs from Yamaha plus third party packs we really need more room in Expansion .

This is "P's of Cake"  for Yamaha!!


Regards

[Normanfernandez]

Yamaha can do 128 GB
But they won't.

[DerekA]

Yamaha could let me stream Netflix right onto the big screen in the middle. Genos has a wifi connection, so why not?

But they won't.

[Pauljones]

Thanks Francesco.

[EileenL]

I am now much more selective of what samples I load and make sure I will use them. Doing this I have plenty of room left. Why cram everything on just because we can. It is the same with styles. We have hundreds but if we are honest how many to we really use.

[Normanfernandez]

I am now much more selective of what samples I load and make sure I will use them. Doing this I have plenty of room left. Why cram everything on just because we can. It is the same with styles. We have hundreds but if we are honest how many to we really use.

Sometimes you need that extra memory for samples.

I've used Kontakt Instruments
Some Instruments were almost 200 GB. ..


We're not even asking for 200 GB.
Even 128 GB would be good enough for Expansion Packs. ..

[EileenL]

At present Genos has 3Gb for samples to suggest 125 Gb is way out of the question

[DerekA]

Some Instruments were almost 200 GB. ..

That's because they are designed to run on PCs which may have disks in the TB region. They are using multiple key and velocity samples, many seconds long - and mainly because they can, rather than because it makes for a fantastic voice at the end of it.

[groovyband.live]

That's because they are designed to run on PCs which may have disks in the TB region. They are using multiple key and velocity samples, many seconds long - and mainly because they can, rather than because it makes for a fantastic voice at the end of it.

Nowadays nvme SSDs with hundreds of Gigabytes and stellar transfer rates costs peanuts. With 50 € you can buy a Chinese smartphone (a Genos too is Chinese) with 16 Gb of storage (plus ram, quad core CPU, screen, battery, GPS, gyroscope,..... added on top for free).

Less than 4Gb of storage (worth probably 10 cents) in a 4k€ device is simply ridiculous.

But when a Montage USB transfer speed tops at 30 kbytes/sec (only ten times a 1983 midi cable) then you realise that they are 40 years behind the state of the art.

Maybe your nephews in 2060 will enjoy 2020 tech.

Ah, they add 16 gb to smartphones just because they can. You can make a perfect phone call even with an old fashioned electromechanical phone (those with the numbers around a sliding ring). The voice is strong and clear, and the ringtone is loud!! You cannot miss it.

[Normanfernandez]

That's because they are designed to run on PCs which may have disks in the TB region. They are using multiple key and velocity samples, many seconds long - and mainly because they can, rather than because it makes for a fantastic voice at the end of it.

Genos and SX are no longer the Old OS system

Linux is quite customisable. 
The current limitations that Yamaha is giving is kinda low.
Now we have Flagship Smartphones with 12 + GB RAM.

This is a Workstation. And with MIDI 2.0 it should be easier.

[jugge]

Genos and SX are no longer the Old OS system

Linux is quite customisable. 
The current limitations that Yamaha is giving is kinda low.
Now we have Flagship Smartphones with 12 + GB RAM.

This is a Workstation. And with MIDI 2.0 it should be easier.

I wasn't aware of a new MIDI standard, but after almost 40 years with version 1, I guess it was time 
https://www.midi.org/midi-articles/details-about-midi-2-0-midi-ci-profiles-and-property-exchange

[overover]

The Genos OS is based on Linux, but the hardware differs fundamentally from that of a Smartphone or PC.

Here is some interesting information on the subject of "Genos Main CPU" and "Genos Tone Generation" from our forum member "PJ" (Paul J. Drongowski):

>>> https://sandsoftwaresound.net/yamaha-genos-main-cpu/

>>> https://sandsoftwaresound.net/yamaha-genos-tone-generation/

Since the Expansion Wave memory (as well as the Preset Wave memory) is designed as special "NAND Flash" memory chips (directly connected to the Tone Generator chips "SWP70" Slave and "SWP70 Master" of the Genos), this memory cannot be expanded by standard SSD or eMMC memory.


Best regards,
Chris

[Joe H]

Here's a review by Craig Anderton on the 2.0 spec.

https://www.sweetwater.com/insync/midi-2-0-what-actually-matters-for-musicians/

Joe H

[groovyband.live]

Since the Expansion Wave memory (as well as the Preset Wave memory) is designed as special "NAND Flash" memory chips (directly connected to the Tone Generator chips "SWP70" Slave and "SWP70 Master" of the Genos), this memory cannot be expanded by standard SSD or eMMC memory.

Typical example of reinventing the wheel to make it square!

Not only SSDs are dirty cheap and with performance to spare, but also RAM is cheaper than ever.
With the cost of 2 pizzas you can buy 4 Gb of ram and load into it the whole Genos sample rom from a magnetic tape at startup. And forget once for all the transfer speed problem (that only Yamaha seems to have, since the rest of the world is perfectly fine with SSDs).

Amen.

[Bachus]

Nowadays nvme SSDs with hundreds of Gigabytes and stellar transfer rates costs peanuts. With 50 € you can buy a Chinese smartphone (a Genos too is Chinese) with 16 Gb of storage (plus ram, quad core CPU, screen, battery, GPS, gyroscope,..... added on top for free).

Less than 4Gb of storage (worth probably 10 cents) in a 4k€ device is simply ridiculous.

But when a Montage USB transfer speed tops at 30 kbytes/sec (only ten times a 1983 midi cable) then you realise that they are 40 years behind the state of the art.

Maybe your nephews in 2060 will enjoy 2020 tech.

Ah, they add 16 gb to smartphones just because they can. You can make a perfect phone call even with an old fashioned electromechanical phone (those with the numbers around a sliding ring). The voice is strong and clear, and the ringtone is loud!! You cannot miss it.

Those are very different technollogies...thats indirect accessible memmory
Meaning the procesoor can"t access it directly..

What we see on keyboards is direct accessible flash ram..
Thast something totally different
And much more expensive..


There is 8Gb inside the Genos i believe..
There is 4 GB for internal sounds and 4 GB for external (3GB of it for samples)

The only thing that Yamaha could do is moving all the free expansions to the internal ROM part (which actually is flash ram)
There is only 2.5GB of samples in Genos internal ROM, so basically they could free up 1.5GB of the expansion RAM, if they wanted to..
They could alos decide on expanding the internal memmory with new sounds, like a Bosendorfer Piano, and whatever people would like

But thats about it i guess...

When you look at other high end hardware instruments, Yamaha isn"t doing to bed with the Genos.
Montage only has 2GB, MODX has 1 GB

And Korg PA4x also has 3GB
Ketron has 750 MB in their top product SD9

Kurzweil Forte has 16GB, from which 3GB are for user samples..
Nord has 2 GB for piano and 500MB for other samples..

Does everyone see the pattern by now?


The only exception is Korg Kronos, which has around 30GB for external samples..
But thats because Korg is the only company using a different technollogie (sample streaming from disk) which as slightly more latency


So why do you think this is the case?

[chony]

Unfortunately I think the reason the limit is currently 3gb and not 4gb (considering there is 4gb or flash), is because the size of the Genos install files, is larger than the size of its samples. Go to YEM, select Genos and you'll see that the Voice WAV size and Pack Install size are two different things. So it seems that to loan 3gb of voices, you need 4gb of space.

All that said, I still agree with the premise that current TOTL keyboards from all companies are 20 years behind. It frustrates me that not one of them has an "Apple moment" where they say, "Let's build the instrument of the future!" Or even of the present.

The fact is these arrangers should have as a minimum:
- A great synthesizer
- A great drum mixer
- Real multiband EQ for channels
- Great mastering

(Korg actually does have versions of the last 3 items)

If they were able to pull off the incredible ensemble voice technology (which is as good as the commercial ones!), and the organ voice technology, why not these other basic technologies?

[DerekA]

All these things are available *today* if you use a computer with DAW, VSTs and a controller keyboard.

The market for hardware workstations like the Genos has a different focus. It gives us a taste of those things but not a full banquet. Why not? Fundamentally because *most* customers just don't want them.

Personally, yes I would love a hardware workstation that had all those features you list Chony, but I can't really see it happening. There are not enough customers who want this and would pay for it. We've seen digital cameras, music players, sat nav etc all being folded into mobile phones rather than being standalone hardware. That's just the way it's going.

[EileenL]

Very True,
  You can probably make music on a phone also but it is never going to be the same as buying a musical instrument and using it as it is designed to be used. You are right many of us do not want all this electronic stuff added to our keyboards. We are happy with what we have.

[Bachus]

All these things are available *today* if you use a computer with DAW, VSTs and a controller keyboard.

The market for hardware workstations like the Genos has a different focus. It gives us a taste of those things but not a full banquet. Why not? Fundamentally because *most* customers just don't want them.

Personally, yes I would love a hardware workstation that had all those features you list Chony, but I can't really see it happening. There are not enough customers who want this and would pay for it. We've seen digital cameras, music players, sat nav etc all being folded into mobile phones rather than being standalone hardware. That's just the way it's going.

Good luck creating your own arranger on pc..
You will have to do everything from scratch
Nothing is ballanced
You will be tinkering with your gear and software continously..
I prefer spending my time behind a hardware keyboard making music..

Pc, or in my case the ipad works well as an addition to the lovely Genos..
If there is something missing in my Genos, or my stage piano.. the ipad can do it for me..
Works well...

[groovyband.live]

You are right many of us do not want all this electronic stuff added to our keyboards. We are happy with what we have.

Given the average age of those attending the Yamaha arranger demonstrations (see on YouTube the videos of the Dutch ace player whose name I do not remember now) this is perfectly understandable. After all when they were young (and received their inprinting that will last for life) even a basic handheld calculator was advanced technology (in the 70s it took a full month of salary to buy one).

But when, not many years from now, Yamaha will have to find new costumers for their products, (the millennials), I do not think that they could fob them off with a technology (and firmware) that was already obsolete even before their birth!

[Bachus]

Very True, You are right many of us do not want all this electronic stuff added to our keyboards. We are happy with what we have.

But you realise that you are slowly becomming a minority?

Where Yamaha allways shines is taking that high end stuff and adding it to their high end arranger keyboard..  i will give you some examples, like the ensemble section, you would have called that high end stuff, yet you probably love it the way Yamaha implemented this..

Same for touch screens, during Tyros 4/5 upgrade, many people here said they didn't need a touch screen, yet it is here and allmost everyone loves its functionallity..


I think Yamaha is doing great with their updates, yet they are doing it to slow for many people here..

I can make a long list of these features everyone would love if implemented the Yamaha way...   Where Yamaha makes those high end features easy to use... 


But saying, we are happy with the Genos as is, is something different from saying we are enjoying the Genos as is, but realise it could be so much better if.....(fill in 100 improvements) ..  and yet we are all here, because we love Yamaha keyboards?


Anyway, personally i think all those people saying the Genos is great and does not need any new features, is the reason that arranger sales in Europe and the US keep dropping as we speak. Because Yamaha listens to you, and thinks by itselves, this is a lovely situation, minimal effort, maximal proffit..

There is nothing wrong with having long lists of wishes for a next keyboard generation, or even a V2.5 or V3.0 upgrade..  i think when done with respect for our current instrument, its a great thing ..

I in general only ask from Yamaha to implement features they have on their other less expensive keyboards too..  features that could be fun... fun for everyone...  and improve the quallity of the instrument for all..

[Joe H]

... I in general only ask from Yamaha to implement features they have on their other less expensive keyboards too..  features that could be fun... fun for everyone...  and improve the quality of the instrument for all..

I agree with you 100%.  There are many features from their synths going way back 20 years that could be ported over to the arranger and add great value and an element of creativity for the player.  Especially the TOTL arranger... considering its price point.

Remember, Yamaha never take away features, they just add more to the next arranger release. We still don't know how many new features could be added to the Genos and PSR-sx arrangers with OS updates. Like an Arpeggiator Editor, Voice Editor, add more arpeggios, more DSPs, etc.  We know they increased the capacity of the MIDI on-board sequencer and changed the fonts for display, etc.

Joe H

[RoyB]

Well this thread seems to have drifted from its original topic! Nevertheless, this is my take on it.

There is a good reason why Yamaha have for many years been market leaders in arranger keyboards - and it isn't because they have produced the most innovative or technically advanced arrangers (because in my opinion they never have). In my opinion, it is because Yamaha have cleverly and consistently produced the best overall cost-effective packages with useful, easy-to-use features (not necessarily the most technically advanced) that suit the requirements of the adult audience that they feel is most likely to buy home arranger keyboards. And they have cleverly done that, with marketing and distribution expertise to match, for many years, helped by communities such as this, so that in effect the Yamaha brand name now sells the products.

However nothing lasts forever, and I cannot help but think that the time for the demise of hardware keyboard arrangers as we have known them is not far away - they can only get away with updated repackaging of their existing technologies for so long. Whether we will ever see hybrid workstation-arranger type products (as some have suggested) remains to be seen. My hope is that someone comes up with something more revolutionary and innovative, and my thinking is that we could see moves away from hardware arrangers that have a dedicated and limited built-in software OS,  to more flexible computer-like solutions designed around software. We have already seen a handful of small 3rd-party developers come up with software arranger products to supplement/enhance existing arranger keyboards - will one of the main keyboard manufacturers take this concept further?

Whatever new developments come next, we don't know whether or not it will be Yamaha leading the way (if indeed there are going to be any new arranger-type developments). However, I am reminded that over 30 years ago Yamaha dabbled in the home computer market, producing a couple of home PC products that were heavily music orientated. In fact the last of these, at the end of the 1980's, was a music orientated PC that had a number of MIDI specific features - it was in fact a dedicated MIDI studio in a laptop-type box.

Regards

Roy

[RagJose]

[...] Remember, Yamaha never take away features, they just add more to the next arranger release. [...]

I beg to differ, Joe... coming from the 3000 and the S-950, I miss Music Finder a lot, despite the limitations it has compared to Registrations.  With these, one is stuck with just an alphabetic song order for a gig.  MF allowed instantaneous on-screen sort by Style or Tempo, not to mention the "Favourite", "Search1" and "Search2" screens, which allowed one to organize a repertoire into three meaningful subsets, taking advantage of Michael Bedesem's Music Finder View utility.  I could say I miss also some panel buttons, but I may be still to discover that I can recover them with the assignable buttons, as I'm still in the learning curve with the SX.

Regards -- José

[EileenL]

On the newer keyboards Play list is the way to go. You can store your gigs set in order of play and as many as you like. you can move the order around to suit.

[Joe H]

I beg to differ, Joe...
Regards -- José

Nothing was taken away, it's just implemented differently or improved.

Joe H

[RagJose]

On the newer keyboards Play list is the way to go. You can store your gigs set in order of play and as many as you like. you can move the order around to suit.

Thanks, Eileen.  That seems to be Yamaha's choice for the future and Playlists are fantastic if you gig in a predefined sequence.  I'm still to find out a good way to change the mood of my performance at an arbitrary moment without having a specific song name in mind.  I had it figured out with Music Finder.  New meadows to explore now.

But we're really getting way off topic, as RoyB pointed out.  Sorry...

[Toril S]

I must admit that it has always baffled me that Yamaha put so little space for storage in their magnificent keyboards. I love the big hard drive on my Tyros. But my S975 is full after putting some midi files and maybe 100 styles in user memory. I prefer storing things on the keyboard, then it is always there. An USB stick may be forgotten. And for expansion..... Well, you have mentioned it. But Yamaha may have a reason for keeping the memory small, who knows, I am not a data savvy person.

[Bachus]

I must admit that it has always baffled me that Yamaha put so little space for storage in their magnificent keyboards. I love the big hard drive on my Tyros. But my S975 is full after putting some midi files and maybe 100 styles in user memory. I prefer storing things on the keyboard, then it is always there. An USB stick may be forgotten. And for expansion..... Well, you have mentioned it. But Yamaha may have a reason for keeping the memory small, who knows, I am not a data savvy person.

I explained this in a previous answer..  only the korg kronos has more room for user samples.. Genos is at the top of them all..

Thats because the type of memmory required for the current hardware is way more expensive then PC memmory. Its not ram its flash ram, ans thats something different then SSD memory too.

[Bachus]

On the newer keyboards Play list is the way to go. You can store your gigs set in order of play and as many as you like. you can move the order around to suit.

You can even convert your old music finder files to the new more flexible system..