IK Multimedia B-3X, and Genos

voodoo · January 10, 2020, 03:09:19 PM

Stuart,

Thank you for testing my proposal.

Your comments are completely right. I have been thinking about the same question.

To my knowledge there is no way to save midi setup to registration.
The main thing that we cannot save is the setting for Part 3 local on/off.
The other midi settings can be permanent for my taste. Always sending Right 3 to Midi Port Channel 1 does not disturb my otherwise.

But we can save the complete set of midi assignments for the live control sliders to a registration.
I think that is not so bad.
With V2.0 we even can save that the Slider Assign Type 2 is active when recalling the registration, so the draw bars are active immediately.

Uli

StuartR · January 10, 2020, 05:02:30 PM

Quote from: voodoo on January 10, 2020, 03:09:19 PM
Stuart,

Thank you for testing my proposal.

Your comments are completely right. I have been thinking about the same question.

To my knowledge there is no way to save midi setup to registration.
The main thing that we cannot save is the setting for Part 3 local on/off.
The other midi settings can be permanent for my taste. Always sending Right 3 to Midi Port Channel 1 does not disturb my otherwise.

But we can save the complete set of midi assignments for the live control sliders to a registration.
I think that is not so bad.
With V2.0 we even can save that the Slider Assign Type 2 is active when recalling the registration, so the draw bars are active immediately.

Uli

One option that occurs to me (suggested by another member) is to use a blank voice for R3 when you want to use it strictly for MIDI control. This can be created in YEM, imported and selected via registration as needed.

jimlaing · January 12, 2020, 10:44:46 PM

Hi - on Leslie (Rotary) speeds, I did some comparisons between B-3X app (IK's official Hammond organ app) and Genos "Real Rotary" effect. I found (as pjd did) that speeds around 360rpm or so, matched most closely with Hammond (And IK) Leslie speeds, at least in "by-ear" tests. So I created my own copy of Real Rotary effect (as User Effect) on the Genos, and modified the fast speeds of rotors to somewhere in the 350-370rpm range, and the are now fairly close to the speeds I hear when the Leslie is set to "fast" on the IK/Hammond app ... the 'character' of the rotary is still fairly different than the Leslie in IK/Hammond, but changing the speed down to ~360 or so (fast) makes it a bit closer anyway ...

Jim

voodoo · January 15, 2020, 08:07:04 AM

Quote from: StuartR on January 10, 2020, 05:02:30 PM
One option that occurs to me (suggested by another member) is to use a blank voice for R3 when you want to use it strictly for MIDI control. This can be created in YEM, imported and selected via registration as needed.

Stuart,

yes exactly, this is the way that I would go. I have made some dummy voice files that can be put on USB. They do a program change but don't have sound. So they are perfect for switching programs on an external sound generator (with names displayed on Genos) and at the same time muting the sound generation for this part on Genos. Or using the YEM, as you described, is also a perfect solution including voice names.

Uli

StuartR · January 15, 2020, 09:03:19 AM

Quote from: voodoo on January 15, 2020, 08:07:04 AM
Stuart,

yes exactly, this is the way that I would go. I have made some dummy voice files that can be put on USB. They do a program change but don't have sound. So they are perfect for switching programs on an external sound generator (with names displayed on Genos) and at the same time muting the sound generation for this part on Genos. Or using the YEM, as you described, is also a perfect solution including voice names.

Uli

I hadn't thought about the dummy voice actually performing a midi operation along with just being mute. Good ideas that!

uhoh7 · January 20, 2020, 05:09:18 PM

I've still not quite pulled the trigger on a Genos, but one thing I like is the Organ (B3 emulation) seemed alot better implemented than with any Yamaha product before, and even the drawbars are Hammond style.

As most of you I'm sure know:
https://youtu.be/qd_a_Hpiz0E
The YC61 has landed. Organ nuts seem crazy about it.
Do we know if there is any relations between the DSPs behind the YC and Genos?
Aside from Leslie issues, how do you like the Genos compared to other clonewheels?

The YC61 looks so nice but lack of any aftertouch is dealbreaker for me. It's 2020 and why we don't have poly AT on all these boards, I don't understand frankly. $$$$.

On that note, how is the mono aftertouch on the Genos? Is it adjustable? So often I find AT so heavy it's unusable.

On the Leslie issues, there are such good leslie pedals, I figure I can always add one if needed. I'm lucky to have 3 Leslies and an RT3 in the living room.

Thanks for great forum here.

KeyboardByBiggs · January 21, 2020, 03:25:33 PM

Quote from: uhoh7 on January 20, 2020, 05:09:18 PM
The YC61 has landed. Organ nuts seem crazy about it.

The YC61 looks so nice but lack of any aftertouch is dealbreaker for me.

All of the organ players I follow and trust that have played it aren't very impressed.

Lee Batchelor · January 21, 2020, 03:42:40 PM

Looks like Yamaha is trying to compete with the Nord Electro series. Nord has been at it for a long time. My friend is a seasoned pro piano and B3 player. He says the Nord Electro keyboards are about the best B3 emulators to date.

Amxf5 · January 22, 2020, 10:03:33 AM

The most accurate clone wheel available by all accounts is the Crumar Mojo. No others come close!

Amxf5 · January 22, 2020, 01:40:35 PM

Nothing compares to a real Hammond B3. But for clonewheels,most reviews give the nod to the Mojo, mainly because it costs over $1500 less than the X5, with nearly identical B3 sound. The most bang for your buck is what they say!

Chelsea 4023 · January 25, 2020, 07:58:58 PM

Hi,

I'm a little confused by the discussions between musicman01 and Amxf5. Although they both seem to agree nothing beats a genuine Hammond B3 with a real leslie they disagree on wether the Hammond XK5 or the Crumar Mojo is the best clone. Neither mention the Viscount Legend range of organs designed by Elvio Previati (formally Key B organs) and produced by Viscount Italy.
The fact that neither Forum Members even mention the Viscount Legend organs in their posts does seem strange as this brand is a major player in the Hammond Clone market.
I have heard both the Hammond XK5 and also the Crumar Mojo and they indeed are excellent clones. I have read up on both in extensive reviews, and with regards to the XK5 it is prohibitively expensive to purchase, and users claim the leslie sim is not particularly realistic. With regards to the Crumar Mojo, build quality and reliability comes into question from owners (particularly because it uses VB3 software).
I own a Viscount Legend Live organ and yes it's not perfect by any stretch, I also would not claim it to be the best clone out there. What I can say without doubt is that it's quite fairly priced, sounds reasonably good, has a great leslie sim and comes with a P.C. editor for all the 'tweakers' out there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qVi_qZnQlY

Chris

Chelsea 4023 · January 25, 2020, 08:26:11 PM

Hi,

Just to add some information to my previous post about the Hammond Clones,
I have sourced some actual U.K. prices online (not retail) of the three Clones. No prices include bass pedals or amplification.

Hammond XK5 dual manual organ. £4,498.
Viscount Legend dual manual organ. £2,231.
Crumar Mojo XT dual manual organ. £1,559.

As you can see, the Hammond XK5 dual manual is exactly double the price of a Viscount Legend dual manual, plus another £36.
The Crumar Mojo XT dual manual is the cheapest Clone. Unfortunately it only has one set of drawbars whereas the other Clones
have two sets of drawbars.

Chris

Chelsea 4023 · January 26, 2020, 06:55:31 AM

Hi,

Sorry musicman01, I don't understand what you mean when you say 'I just have to point you right'.
For the record, Viscount Legend organs do not use VB3 software. To my knowledge neither the Key B
or the Numa organs use VB3 software. I owned a Numa 2 organ and that definitely did not use VB3
software either.
The Key B and Viscount are two different Companies.
Finally, when you say the Hammond XK5 is currently the best clone wheel, is that in your opinion or
have you been told that by somebody ?

Chris

p.s. Please don't think that because I own a Legend Live that I'm saying it's the best clone on the market,
it's probably not but it does deserve to be included in the list.

Chelsea 4023 · January 27, 2020, 07:09:04 AM

Hi musicman01,

Final post on this subject as your simply not getting the message.
Viscount is nothing to do with Key B. The Key B is a totally different organ and Company to the Viscount Legend range of organs.
There was a three year gap between the Key B organs and the release of the Viscount Legend range of organs.

The Viscount Legend range of organs is based on 'Physical modelling synthesis' and does NOT use sampling technology.
I would suggest you look at the official Viscount specs in the link below,

https://www.viscountinstruments.com/legend.html?limit=all

You can keep insisting Viscount and Key B organs use sampling technology but it does not make you right !!

Chris

jimlaing · January 28, 2020, 01:16:48 PM

To respond to uhoh7's topics ... I have the IK B-3X on iPad, and also the Genos. Out of the box (i.e. default settings), the Genos drawbar organ sounds "OK" but to my ears, but not that great. The leslie simulation is set much too fast by default. When I compare the B-3x iPad app (I don't have a real Hammond to compare!) the Genos is quite "wimpy" in its drawbar organ sounds. Yes, it has the 'drawbar-like' controls etc., and it is not *bad* sounding in organs, just not nearly as good as most clone wheels I've played (Nord, Hammond, and IK app). When I made the rotary speed more appropriate on Genos, its drawbar organs do sound somewhat better. The other thing is that the Genos does not have the "Chorus" (C1, C2, C3) settings at all - I always wondered why Yamaha didn't include this in the past, while other Clonewheels did.

I don't hear anything like the new YC61's drawbar sounds when I play Genos' drawbar organs. I don't know the technical details, but I get the impression from listening to the Yamaha guys on the YC61 videos, that the YC61 is an entirely new 'thing' with all new tech behind it, such that it sounds like a lot more like a really good clonewheel - to my ears, much better than Genos when it comes to Hammond tonewheel sound. I wrote in one note somewhere that I hoped that Yamaha would put the YC61 organ tech into the next Genos keyboard!!

Jim

andyg · January 28, 2020, 03:00:36 PM

I avoid Real Rotor like the plague! I think the helicopter comparison in an earlier post is quite apt.

If you understand how the Leslie crossover affects the tone between treble and bass, and how the rotors in a real Leslie spin, then you can adjust the parameters in Dual Rotor Bright to get a very passable Leslie sound.

But it's still not going to be anything like a real Hammond and Leslie - no moving air! And it won't be as close as the best clones - I'll let others argue over which of the likes of the XK5, Nords, Mojos, Legends etc are the best. But all those clones really need a Leslie, their sims are good but not there - yet.

And for those organists like me who actually like their Hammonds to make sounds other than 88 8800 000 + percussion + overdrive

, or want other types of organ - Lowrey, Thomas, Baldwin etc, then you have to sit down and spend a few hours playing mix and match with sounds and DSPs. The results can be astonishingly good if you have patience!

Chelsea 4023 · January 29, 2020, 06:45:31 AM

Hi Andyg,

I have the Korg PA4X (which I bought through Keysounds, Leicester). Nigel pre-loads the keyboard with TTT theatre samples and Wersi organ samples. It also comes a very impressive set of church organ samples. These sounds (along with the flute drawbars) cover virtually all genres of organ music.
What let's the keyboard down badly is the flute drawbar section and the leslie sim (for me anyway). I believe the Genos is better, but not by a great margin. The technology is available and it's not particularly expensive so why will Yamaha and Korg not put decent tonewheel sounds into their arrangers ? As I have said before, if Viscount can do a standalone drawbar module for around £450 Korg and Yamaha (who now have the drawbar technology in the YC61) could quite easily implement it at a lower cost.
I use my 61 note arranger sitting above my Legend Live in a three manual organ configuration. Unfortunately the Genos is a bit too long to sit above the organ but I'm looking seriously at the new SX900 as a potential third manual.

Regarding which are the best clones, all I was saying is that the Viscount Legend range of drawbar organs simply deserves to be included in the shortlist. It's not the best clone and I would never say that.

Chris

pjd · January 29, 2020, 02:09:42 PM

Quote from: andyg on January 28, 2020, 03:00:36 PM
I avoid Real Rotor like the plague! I think the helicopter comparison in an earlier post is quite apt.

If you understand how the Leslie crossover affects the tone between treble and bass, and how the rotors in a real Leslie spin, then you can adjust the parameters in Dual Rotor Bright to get a very passable Leslie sound.

Hi Andy --

Thanks! I wanted to love REAL ROTOR myself, but returned to the algorithm behind DUAL ROTOR WARM (and BRIGHT). You helped put me in touch with the "je ne sais quoi" that I heard/felt.

I agree about a real Leslie and so forth. However, this is not practical for many of us. (Let us count the ways...

)

Hi Jim --

Yep, Yamaha mathematically modeled the drawbars, the rotary speaker acoustics and the circuitry. One of the people behind the YC61 is sensei Toshifumi Kunimoto. Dr. K was a major contributor to VCM and VL physical modeling. The YC61 is a genuine advance for Yamaha as far as virtual tonewheel organ technology is concerned.

As to whether the new technology can be implemented inexpensively, who knows as yet? I'd like to see the service manual to see what's inside.

All that said, I found a second hand Lester K and will be giving it a try. I'll eventually try the YC61 once it's released (June 2020?)

All the best -- pj

Chelsea 4023 · January 30, 2020, 07:07:40 AM

Hi Jim,
I read your post regarding the Genos organs sounds and that you mentioned about Yamaha putting the clonewheel technology from the YC61 into the a second generation Genos. Is that a feasible prospect ? Is there anyway they could update the current Genos with the new technology or would that be a 'no go' as new hardware would be required ?
I know AndyG has been involved with keyboards/organs for a long time and I'd be interested in his opinions.
For me, the weakness in the flute sections of current arranger keyboards is the only thing that would stop me from buying another one.
Chris

KeyboardByBiggs · January 30, 2020, 06:59:56 PM

Simply upgrading their Leslie simulation would go a LONG way.

I, and several other Genos users, send the organ sound out of the Aux jacks then through an external Leslie pedal, liker the ElectroHarmonix Lester, or one of the Vent pedals.

This absolutely brings the organ sound in the Genos alive. It's unbelievable how good it sounds when you do this.

They can upgrade the tonewheel sound all they want, but if they don't raise their Leslie game it won't make much difference.

pjd · January 31, 2020, 12:43:36 PM

Quote from: Chelsea 4023 on January 30, 2020, 07:07:40 AM
Is that a feasible prospect ? Is there anyway they could update the current Genos with the new technology or would that be a 'no go' as new hardware would be required ?

Hi Chris --

I usually get this question, but it's on YamahaSynth.com and it's people wondering if virtual analog synthesis can be added to Montage/MODX.

I collected my responses at:

http://sandsoftwaresound.net/musing-about-montage-va/

The situation is similar -- the tonewheels (VA: oscillators) need to be modeled. Short answer: The current tone generation hardware is tailored (optimized) for AWM sample playback and FM-X. The technical question is whether the current tone generation hardware can be re-purposed for modeling. Yamaha have never explicitly written about the actual hardware design, so it's all speculation. I'd like to be surprised, but I'm skeptical.

Marketing-wise, Yamaha probably aren't motivated to add YC61 technology to other product lines (e.g., arrangers) in the near term. Why kill YC61 sales? They need to make back the non-recurring engineering costs and putting the same tech into an arranger would reduce the perceived "special-ness" of the YC61. Promotionally, they will make an excuse like, "Yamaha wants to provide a complete stage organ experience", yada-yada. So, I'm pessimistic, too.

The rotary speaker sim is probably the piece that could be most easily ported.

Hope this helps -- pj

P.S. I wrote a thought piece on early AWM and FM hardware which likely evolved into the current implementation:

http://sandsoftwaresound.net/early-wave-table-and-fm-synthesis/

Chelsea 4023 · February 01, 2020, 08:02:12 AM

Hi KeyboardByBiggs,

The fact that the Genos flutes improve extensively through an external rotary is an encouraging fact. For me, maybe the addition of a vent would suffice. I'll check with Korg to see what the implications are of adding something like that to improve the general flute sounds.
Thank you for the advice.

Chris

Togge · February 01, 2020, 09:02:16 AM

I wonder how Yamaha generates the VA in their Electones?
If they have a separate core for that.
I would have guessed Electones and Tyror/Genos shared a lot.

pjd · February 01, 2020, 03:39:25 PM

Quote from: Togge on February 01, 2020, 09:02:16 AM
I wonder how Yamaha generates the VA in their Electones?
If they have a separate core for that.
I would have guessed Electones and Tyror/Genos shared a lot.

Hi --

I took a quick look at the Service Manual for the Electone ELS-01/ELS-01C. The ELS-01 is one generation back in AWM2 tone generation (SWP50 vs. the current SWP70). The internal structure of the Electrone is quite different from high-end PSR and Tyros of that era.

The ELS-01C model adds organ flutes and virtual analog voices. The organ flute voices are produced by a pair of SWP50 (AWM2) tone generator ICs. Virtual analog (VA) voices are produced by a Yamaha YSS217B-F IC, also known as "DSP-V". This is the same IC employed in the PLG150-VL board. The Electone VA board is similar to the PLG150-VL, but discards the electronics needed for DAC and PC interfacing.

Virtual Analog synthesizers of that era (e.g., PLG150-AN, etc.) utilized the YSS-236-F, also known as "VOP3". The VOP3 was also moonlighting as the vocal harmony processor during that time frame.

Yamaha were not afraid to design and manufacture customized large scale integrated (LSI) chips for VL, AN and FM.

Hope this helps -- pj

Chelsea 4023 · February 02, 2020, 07:16:15 AM

Hi,

I guessed you guys have all seen this video before, but if not then take a look.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbDywIyOYb8

Checking on Ebay U.K. used Yamaha reface YK's are going for around £200.

Chris

KeyboardByBiggs · February 03, 2020, 11:09:46 AM

Quote from: Chelsea 4023 on February 01, 2020, 08:02:12 AM
Hi KeyboardByBiggs,

The fact that the Genos flutes improve extensively through an external rotary is an encouraging fact. For me, maybe the addition of a vent would suffice. I'll check with Korg to see what the implications are of adding something like that to improve the general flute sounds.
Thank you for the advice.

Chris

I hope it works out for you! I was floored when I first heard how much it improved. It was like all of the sound was there and just waiting to be unlocked.