YEM 2.60 Error? "Total amount of user Waveform exceeds the limit"

[bluali]

I got this error whenever I want to save the installation pack to the USB: "Total amount of user Waveform exceeds the limit"
I have done the followings:
1- uninstall the old YEM 2.5 and install the new YEM 2.60
2- export and add to YEM the new Genos V2.00 ID.n27
Voice Wave Size = 2601
Voice Parameter Size =15391
Pack Installation Size =3030
I could not find any document in Yamaha web site about the Waveform limits. Any help will be greatly appreciated.

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[EileenL]

You don't have to uninstall the old YEM you just load the update straight on. You should now see that you have 3Gb memory.

[Sokratis1974]

The same problem here with two my friends of mine...
YEM 2.6 Version
Genos 2.0 Version

1)

2)

[Bill]

I think the Error Messages are very clear.
You have to many voices selected, simply reduce the number until you don't get the error.  The limits do not just apply to the overall physical size of the waveform data but also the quantity.

Regards

Bill

[valimaties]

Hi.
IMO, is a silly error. You have 3GB of Memory, but you can't achieve it because of numbers of user wave files?! A silly limitation, IMHO, which was present in old versions, too!

[Sokratis1974]

I think the Error Messages are very clear.
You have to many voices selected, simply reduce the number until you don't get the error.  The limits do not just apply to the overall physical size of the waveform data but also the quantity.

Regards

Bill

Excuse me but I believe that you are incorrect in assuming that the amount of voices exceeds the given limit. In actuality the error message tells you of an excessive amount of WAVEFORM DATA (Samples). It simply recommends that you decrease the amount of voices  in order to reduce Waveform data. The problem lies in the fact that we do not have any information on any limitations with waveform data or voices. The number is unknown, not even being shown in YEM and it is an obvious flaw from Yamaha. And lastly not even the number of currently used waveform data (Samples) is being displayed in any way.

[valimaties]

Excuse me but I believe that you are incorrect in assuming that the amount of voices exceeds the given limit. In actuality the error message tells you of an excessive amount of WAVEFORM DATA (Samples). It simply recommends that you decrease the amount of voices  in order to reduce Waveform data. The problem lies in the fact that we do not have any information on any limitations with waveform data or voices. The number is unknown, not even being shown in YEM and it is an obvious flaw from Yamaha. And lastly not even the number of currently used waveform data (Samples) is being displayed in any way.

Look in the picture, it might tell you everything

[Sokratis1974]

Look in the picture, it might tell you everything

My dear friend Vali,
I  don't know much about these types of things.
I do understand two main things,though:

1) Either yamaha or some other company(the same problem lies with the PAX4 version 3.0) gives us 3 gigabytes of RAM and we load waveform sounds until 3 gigabytes of RAM

2) They give us 3 gigabytes but they clearly point out the possible limitations

Which of these senarios coinside with reality?

[valimaties]

That's what I said in Reply #4

A silly limitation, 3GB of memory, but you cannot use it because waveform limitation.

[Lee Batchelor]

Good research, Vali but you should point out to people that you have taken a look inside YEM with the use of the Notepad++ free text editor program. Is this information readily available to users without having to actually use another program to determine how much space has been used?

It's like going to a movie theater, buying your ticket and having to wait in the lobby for the next showing because the theater is full and the ticket agent didn't tell you. You're smarter because you've gone down the side ally of the building and taken a peek inside the theater through a fire exit door that was accidentally left open. You've seen that the theater is full and therefore, will wait until another time to buy your ticket so you don't have to stand in the lobby for three hours!

The moral is: Yamaha should display the memory usage right on the page - not through some hidden side door. I have never used YEM but from what I see it's often very sloppy and incomplete, not to mention way out of date in its design. I downloaded it once to add some free extra voices to my T5. I couldn't make heads or tails out of it from the instructions. 

[valimaties]

Good research, Vali but you should point out to people that you have taken a look inside YEM with the use of the Notepad++ free text editor program. Is this information readily available to users without having to actually use another program to determine how much space has been used?

It's like going to a movie theater, buying your ticket and having to wait in the lobby for the next showing because the theater is full and the ticket agent didn't tell you. You're smarter because you've gone down the side ally of the building and taken a peek inside the theater through a fire exit door that was accidentally left open. You've seen that the theater is full and therefore, will wait until another time to buy your ticket so you don't have to stand in the lobby for three hours!

The moral is: Yamaha should display the memory usage right on the page - not through some hidden side door. I have never used YEM but from what I see it's often very sloppy and incomplete, not to mention way out of date in its design. I downloaded it once to add some free extra voices to my T5. I couldn't make heads or tails out of it from the instructions.

Hi Lee.

Being a programmer, I have made thru time a lot of research, not only on YEM's structure. In my new version of YEM-CE I will count the number of total waveform used, it's an interesting idea
Although, not every information could be real. Maybe what I've point out is not the answer for the problem, but I will make some new research on this error. I have to build packs with more and more waveforms till I will encounter the error, to see if this is the correct answer to the problem, and also, to see which is the approximate number of waveforms to load (silly).

PS: Nice analogy 

[Lee Batchelor]

Thanks, Vali !

[valimaties]

I've made a quick test, and I have 5367 waveform elements in my uvf files of YEM installation. This is total amount of wavefiles which I can count from ppf files, and I have to add at least one waveform (which is not correct  ) for each voice of cpf file and one waveform for each key of a drum voice, and you will totally count a BIG number of waveform elements. 
But, as I said, is NOT a good answer, as I did not count the number of waveform elements of SELECTED voices for installation in keyboard, but the total amount of waveform elements from the entire ppf packs installed in YEM. I will have to think of a good approach 

[Joe H]

Hi.
IMO, is a silly error. You have 3GB of Memory, but you can't achieve it because of numbers of user wave files?! A silly limitation, IMHO, which was present in old versions, too!

As a programmer, do you feel Yamaha can fix this problem.  To us non-programmers this doesn't make a whole lot of sense. With 3GB of memory, it should be filled up with no limit on the number of wave forms.

You are right to say it is a silly error.



Joe H

[valimaties]

As a programmer, do you feel Yamaha can fix this problem.  To us non-programmers this doesn't make a whole lot of sense. With 3GB of memory, it should be filled up with no limit on the number of wave forms.

You are right to say it is a silly error.



Joe H

I don't know Joe! Maybe it's a limitation like number of files in a folder, in keyboard (it seems to be like that one)   I don't know how they store the wave files in memory expansion chip. Maybe the chip itself it limits the number of files... I've maybe said foolish things, maybe @pjd can explain technical details about it

[EileenL]

My YEM shows
Voice Wave size    3072 MB
Voice parameter size   61440 KB
Pack install size    4996 MB

I have eighteen packs loaded two being quite large.

[valimaties]

My YEM shows
Voice Wave size    3072 MB
Voice parameter size   61440 KB
Pack install size    4996 MB

I have eighteen packs loaded two being quite large.

Every YEM 2.6 will show those sizes 
What is the Voice Wave size of selected packs which you installed in your keyboard? How many voices there are?! That's a very important thing !

[overover]

Hi all,

using many Packs with many "REX based" Voices could be the problem here. Those Voices can contain an extremely large number of waveforms.

There is definitely an upper limit to the number of waveforms that can be installed / used on Genos. But the exact value is currently unknown to me.


P.S.
On Tyros4, the limits of VOICE RAM, WAVE COUNT and WAVEFORM COUNT were increased by the last Firmware Update (V1.10):

https://de.yamaha.com/de/support/updates/firm_tyros4.html

Maybe Yamaha can increase the upper limit of the relevant "Custom Voice-related" parameters also on Genos, by a future Firmware Update.


Best regards,
Chris

[Bill]

Excuse me but I believe that you are incorrect in assuming that the amount of voices exceeds the given limit.
In actuality the error message tells you of an excessive amount of WAVEFORM DATA (Samples).
It simply recommends that you decrease the amount of voices  in order to reduce Waveform data.

The problem lies in the fact that we do not have any information on any limitations with waveform data or voices. The number is unknown, not even being shown in YEM and it is an obvious flaw from Yamaha. And lastly not even the number of currently used waveform data (Samples) is being displayed in any way.

In the original posters picture the Wave Form Size was only 2.61 GB  so lots of space left. So if it is not the waveform count that is excessive what would you suggest that it is.   I know Yamaha do not give us all the limitations, but one thing is certain that a limit has been exceeded.   It would be very easy for the original poster to delete some voices and let us know if the problem is solved.

Regards

Bill

[Jørgen]

As a programmer, do you feel Yamaha can fix this problem.  To us non-programmers this doesn't make a whole lot of sense. With 3GB of memory, it should be filled up with no limit on the number of wave forms.

You are right to say it is a silly error.



Joe H

I will try to explain for non-programmers... 
It's like having a big tourist bus with only 4 seats, and it is not allowed to stand.

Jørgen

[valimaties]

I will try to explain for non-programmers... 
It's like having a big tourist bus with only 4 seats, and it is not allowed to stand.

Jørgen

LOL 

[panos]

I don't if it is relevant to the source of the problem or not.

From the YEM manual:
2.Assign Waves to that Element.
NOTE
Depending on the instrument to which the Pack is to be installed, the length of Waves that can be played back may be limited

2.Assign Waves to that Drum Key.
NOTE
Depending on the instrument to which the Pack is to be installed, the length of Waves that can be played back may be limited

Even Big Space has limits....
Theoretically speaking,is a Genos (or a PA4x ) able to produce any kind of a sound wave?

[valimaties]

I don't if it is relevant to the source of the problem or not.

From the YEM manual:
2.Assign Waves to that Element.
NOTE
Depending on the instrument to which the Pack is to be installed, the length of Waves that can be played back may be limited

2.Assign Waves to that Drum Key.
NOTE
Depending on the instrument to which the Pack is to be installed, the length of Waves that can be played back may be limited

Even Big Space has limits....
Theoretically speaking,is a Genos (or a PA4x ) able to produce any kind of a sound wave?

Hi panos.

"Length of waves" does not mean "Count of waves" Length is length, count is count There are two different things there.

Length = duration or time of a wave is played (without loop)
Size = Number of Bytes
Count = Count number of items (elements, files, objects, etc)

If they refers to other thing in that note, it means they have to rewrite the manual, because is wrote wrong and gives user wrong meaning !

[overover]

Hi all,

I just opened the file "Expansion Manager.exe" by using "7-zip" archive program.

Inside this .exe file there is the text file ".rdata". I opened this file in Windows Editor and searched for the term "waveform", and I found the following text passage:

... waveformNum: Rounded to the range. (0..32767) ...

I suspect that this is the maximum number of waveforms supported by the Genos or YEM (at least at the moment, with Firmware 2.00).


Best regards,
Chris

[valimaties]

It is nice the message before that string: "no YEM, no life" 

You guys, you have such a big number of voices with a lot of elements inside?! If so, it is possible. I have a lot of custom content, but not that much with more than two elements, so most of them having only one element it uses only one waveform/voice. So, that's why I have only 5367 waveform data in all my ppf packs.

[overover]

It is nice the message before that string: "no YEM, no life" 

Yes, Vali, I had seen this funny message in that text file too.

You guys, you have such a big number of voices with a lot of elements inside?! If so, it is possible. I have a lot of custom content, but not that much with more than two elements, so most of them having only one element it uses only one waveform/voice. So, that's why I have only 5367 waveform data in all my ppf packs.

The Yamaha Oriental "Local Packs" (available for Genos and PSR-A3000) and certain third party Voice&Style Expansion Packs can contain many REX-based Voices, and these Voices use a large number of waveforms. I suspect that this is the problem mentioned by sokratis and bluali (an extremely high number of waveforms needed by some of the Packs).


Best regards,
Chris

[Fred Smith]

Hi all,

I just opened the file "Expansion Manager.exe" by using "7-zip" archive program.

Inside this .exe file there is the text file ".rdata". I opened this file in Windows Editor and searched for the term "waveform", and I found the following text passage:

... waveformNum: Rounded to the range. (0..32767) ...

I suspect that this is the maximum number of waveforms supported by the Genos or YEM (at least at the moment, with Firmware 2.00).

32,767 as a limit would make a lot of sense as that's 2^15-1 -- the highest positive number you can store in a 16-bit word.

I doubt that this limit can be increased without a lot of programming, and even if it could, it's way down on Yamaha's priority list.

My bet is they will fix the error message to show the limit.

Cheers,
Fred

[Joe H]

My YEM shows
Voice Wave size    3072 MB
Voice parameter size   61440 KB
Pack install size    4996 MB

I have eighteen packs loaded two being quite large.

Eileen,

I think the issue is the number of samples.  So if you have created a pack(s) with lots of "multi sample" SF2 Voices or a lot of drum kits (these consist of many more samples) then you can reach the limit on the number of wave forms (samples) the keyboard memory allows.

Joe H

[valimaties]

Eileen,

I think the issue is the number of samples.  So if you have created a pack(s) with lots of "multi sample" SF2 Voices or a lot of drum kits (these consist of many more samples) then you can reach the limit on the number of wave forms (samples) the keyboard memory allows.

Joe H

Hi Joe.

I have to correct, a little bit! Number of samples can be different than number of waveforms. Why? It is simple, as you can use the same sample for one or more waveform or more than one sample for a waveform.
As I see in backdoor, a waveform is an element for normal voice and a key for a drum voice. So I think the biggest problem is created by drums.
Let's have a look to a DrumKit UVF file:

Here are the elements (each key represent an element/oscillator)


Here are the WaveForms
Each waveform is assigned to an element in DrumKits


A waveform can be Mono or Stereo, which means that Samples Count coudd be 1 or 2. When it is Stereo, you can assign the same wave file for Left and For Right, but in professional studio the stereo recording process is made with 2 microphones, one in the left of the instrument and one in the right. Each sample will sounds different.
Here, in this drumkit, we will see two different wave sample files (different names):


For each sample there are different parameters which can be adjusted, but we don't know the signification of those parameters names   (they are like "z1", "z2", "coef1", etc). More than that, which is more strange to me, is that parameters which are NOT assigned to a visual control in YEM is reset to a default value if you want to change it manually! Something like Hard Codded in YEM

Regards,
Vali

[valimaties]

Right now I found that importing sf2 (probably other formats, too) and, also, creating a new Normal Voice in YEM will automatically create EMPTY waveform for all Elements/Oscillators ... And I think this is a HUGE bug, because in this case there are a lot of waveform which are creating in vain, and probably count to that waveformnum parameter 

I will study this problem!

Edited:
I have extended my function to see how many waveforms are empty in all my installed packs. This is another instance of YEM, at my work, so there are other packs installed.
Be attention to picture, there are packs downloaded from Yamaha which has those empty waveforms inside uvf files.
Example of a voice: "ML in3-Normal-1" from Lebanon Pack. It has all the 8 oscillators presents in uvf file, and only the first one is filled with samples. As I said, when YEM creates an Element in UVF file, it assign automatically a waveform element. If a waveform contains samples it must contains "keybank" child element inside.
Note: this information is available only for ppf packs!!!

So look how many waveforms are empty in my packs! I hope this is not the problem, because if it is, it is silly bug in YEM!





Regards,
Vali