A new arranger to order but ... which one ?

[beykock]

Hi Guys :

I have the intention to order a new high end arranger keyboard.

I own a Tyros5 now. I am pleased but I am looking for an arranger with more editing features and maybe a better sound.

I am afraid of ordering a new Genos due to all the complaints I have read here and somewhere else.

Now, after 4 software updates it seems there are more Genos problems to be solved yet.
See complaints and remarks of several Genos owners/members.

Another new software update will be expected in November 2019, someone said here 2 days ago.
Why oh why is another Genos software update needed, again ?


A new arranger is expensive and I cannot afford a Genos and a PA4X.

Before making any decision I would be grateful to read your comments first.

My main question is : Why should I go for a Genos or ... why not ?


Thank you in advance for your feedback !

Babette

[mikf]

The TOTL choices are pretty obvious - Korg and Genos. Both are going to be very good, although not a massive leap from your T5. I would not put too much weight on the Genos  'complaints'. Most Genos owners love it. You are reading a Yamaha forum and have no doubt the Korg forum also has some people posting issues with the Korg.
Three big deciders will be - what you are doing with the keyboard, - how much the loss of legacy like style edits means to you, and - how much time you are prepared to put into re -learning a new system.  Only you can answer those.
Maybe spending time on the Korg forum would be a good idea. I don't think a Yamaha forum is the best place to ask the question - should I change to Korg?
Mike

[panos]

Babette you are kidding us or something, right?
You have a Tyros 5 and you ask which other arranger is better than the Tyros 5 except from Genos(maybe )  and Pa4x(maybe ) ?
I think the psr E 360 has a unique taste in colours

In my opinion you should wait for the Pa5x as long as the Pa4x is "old" as your Tyros 5 is
and you don't seem to like the Genos.

[beykock]

Thank you, Mike, for your interesting feedback.👍

Indeed ... learning a complete new OS system after so many Yamaha years... might be a pain in the back for me.😧

On the other hand DonM said a few days ago he preferred the Korg OS. I do not know yet why he does.
He owns different systems to work with.
Don is a very experienced gigger.
His judgement and words are very useful for all of us,
I guess.

Sorry but I am very concerned about the Genos complaints though ... who should not be ?
All these critical observations are too important to make the right decision.

People like Vali, Abby and others are ALL loyal friends.
All of these people have invested a lot of money to buy a Genos and they are all Yamaha freaks like you and me.
However, their Genos experience is a very important to me and should not be neglected, IMHO.

I am surprised an expert like Bachus has not given any comments yet. Maybe he is abroad.
No doubt in my mind his professional observations will follow.

Cheers, Babette

[beykock]

Hi Panos :

You are absolutely right I love my Ty5.

Yesterday I received an attractive offer for my keyboard and this temptation makes me think to sell it.

Babette

[Toril S]

Babette, you are kidding, right? I am seriously concerned here...

[EileenL]

Well Babette,
  I should not take to much notice of all the complaints you hear about Genos. I have been with Yamaha keyboards over the last Twenty Five years and have found them to be very reliable and the service departments have always been first class. All keyboards have glitches when they come out and this is because they can not be bench tested to how we will want to use them.
  When we find things we do not think are right then we contact Yamaha and explain the problem and the service guy will usually go through it with you. If it is found not to be working as it should then the information is past to Yamaha Japan where it is tested by the experts. Also requests are sent the same way. If these are deemed reasonable then they are after time added to the updates. As Genos was a new concept and the latest technology in keyboard use some things had to be done a different way.
   Because as with all new keyboards we were using new operations for some things people became confused and were then complaining that things were wrong when indeed a lot was user error. The keyboard its self was fine.
   I had my Tyros5 for three years and have now had my Genos since it came out and will say that all round Genos is the best Yamaha keyboard so far for ease of use and quality of sound.
   I have had Korg keyboards but just did not like there operating systems. They were much to fiddly for my liking.
   But each to there own as they say.

[DerekA]

Hello

If you are looking for more editing features, you will not find them on Genos. Genos is built on the XG architecture, exactly the same as Tyros (and indeed PSR-S). There are no new parameters to adjust, and no new panel controls to let you at the internals of XG (you still need to use YEM to do that).

Many people say the Genos has a better sound and, to be honest, since it uses a newer tone generator, new DAC, and 7-band EQ I think it probably does.

Go from T5 to Genos if you want the feel of something new with a different tone to the sound, but it's not going to be a step change in capabiity.

[robinez]

I own a Tyros5 now. I am pleased but I am looking for an arranger with more editing features and maybe a better sound.

I am afraid of ordering a new Genos due to all the complaints I have read here and somewhere else.

Now, after 4 software updates it seems there are more Genos problems to be solved yet.
See complaints and remarks of several Genos owners/members.

Another new software update will be expected in November 2019, someone said here 2 days ago.
Why oh why is another Genos software update needed, again ?


A new arranger is expensive and I cannot afford a Genos and a PA4X.

I wouldn't worry to much about the bug reports on the genos, although the user scenarios are correct, they are user scenarios and you have to decide for yourself if those things are important for your playing.

Ive noticed the last week reading discussions about other keyboards or about criticism on the genos that posts gets quite emotional quickly. I don't really understand that to be honest because when someone mention it's worries then maybe there is a solution by one of the other genos here (sometimes they are just user errors and sometimes the genos simply doesn't support it). I have no emotion in the Brand war, i have korg, yamaha, roland, kawai and much more gear over here. I couldn't care less which brand is better, they all have their strongs and weaknessness.

So after this disclaimer  , let me try to give my opinion on your question. You say that you are in love with your Tyros, although you want something different know with more editing features and a better sound and considering the korg pa4x. Since i have the korg pa4x and the genos and know both boards quite well i think i can sum up the things you will encounter in this project.

you are used to the sound of the tyros, for me it makes no sense to consider switch to a pa4x, the sounds over there are very different compared to a genos. In my opinions some of the sounds are better on the pa4x, like the piano, synth sounds and choir sounds, but other sounds like organ, guitar, trumpets, sax, etc are better on a genos. Also the dynamics of a korg are quite different and the compressor and master EQ are very high quality on the master bus and does a lot for the end result. (my opinion, not a fact!)

The styles on the genos are way better and there are much more styles available. That doesn't mean that the styles on a pa4x are bad, but they aren't as developed as on a genos. In comparison, the genos has styles that sounds like you are playing with a large band, the pa4x has a much smaller band. And that's the real difference in my opinion. If you want to play cover songs on a pa4x you have to work really hard as a member of the band. On the genos a lot of that work is done in the style itself since the styles are more developped. Now if you are looking for such a role, then you won't be disappointed with the korg pa4x. But if your goal is to play the melody line with your right hand and sound more or less like the original recording, then the genos does a much better job in that area.

I studied piano in my early days so my personal preference lies with the pa4x because i jam a lot and make my own compositions, but whenever i want to play cover songs i use the genos because those styles sound so much better in that area. So on the style area that's in my opinion the main difference.

You also say that you are looking for editing features. I can be really short on this, there is no comparison, on the korg you can edit anything you want, there is even a full synthesizer on board that even supports wave sequencing! It's insane how deep you can go with this synth (you can hear examples on my youtube channel). Also style editing goes very deep (up till 6 variations per main variation connected to chord choices. Also the pa4x has a 3 gigabyte streaming samples memory for your own sounds. The editing on a genos is much more limited, but also much more easy to understand. So expect a long learning curve on the korg pa4x to understand everything.

Another really important consideration is that the userbase of the genos is much larger then the korg pa userbase. So it's more likely to get help for instance on this forum for your genos problem then on other forums for your pa4x problems. Simply because more people are using a genos.

So those remarks are some things to consider. The good thing is that both keyboards are really good, it's more a matter of what you as a musician are looking for.

Let me post two excellent demos that i really like online that shows the different playing styles so that you can see and hear the differences yourself.


Korg Pa3x (this style is the same on the pa4x): Soul with a Capital S
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQJr0hklTjw

Yamaha Genos: multiple sounds and styles
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDDrYEDEyPA

If you have any more questions don't hesitate to ask.

[Kaarlo von Freymann]

Hi Guys :

....I own a Tyros5 now. I am pleased but I am looking for an arranger with more editing features and maybe a better sound.
Babette

Dear Babette,

My honest opinion and my resons

I had the T5/6. I switched to Genos after, was it 1.3,  1.1. of course hailed a perfect was for me unuseable for gigging


1
the user drive in T5 was far too small for me. Allway full. You had to devide the HD into 4 sectors because the number of levels was so restricted,  for me that was the only way to get a useable TREE.

The Genos memory system is not only a huge improvement, I would call it faultless in case the memory was 100 % reliable. Like the memory on my PC, it is not.

2
Genos is lighter, for me that was what "tipped the scale" 

3
Genos fits  left-right into my car, the T  did not.

All the rest IMHO,  that of course not surprisingly  has drawn a lot of flak, is more or less hype.

The drums are more to my liking, I disliked the accoustical styles because  of their limitations.
But if you are not happy with the sound of Tyros 5, I do not believe the Genos will solve your problem. I felt Tyros sounded great and actually I use the Legacy=Tyros sounds on Genos quite a lot.

Do not let the vendors mislead you.  Ask to get the Genos to your place like I did. Put both through the same system, tweak both to their best.  Play the same tune in the same way, record what you play (not MP3. that is crap)  in WAVE and listen to the recording. In case you can hear a difference fine!  I could not,  posted a comparison. Nobody was able to say which was which, just the usual  "if you dont like what you bought, sell it."

That said, (I do not know what kind of music you play) tweak the Genos Acoustic Jazz style and play "A-train" or "All of Me" with the piano on strum harmony.  For me automatic accompaniment canot get any better.

Hope you will post what you decidel

Cheers

Kaarlo

[beykock]

Many thanks for your reply, Eileen.👌
Very useful and helpful information.🌺

I will visit my local dealer in a couple of days.
He has both kbs in stock and has invited me to take all the time I need to play and compare both arrangers.

After this test I will go back to my Ty5 and make my final decission.
As I said before I love my Ty5 very much.

It is absolutely not easy to kill a winning horse like my Ty5/76.

In a couple of days I will know a lot more than today, I hope.

Perhaps it is much wiser to wait for the Genos2 ( or the PA5X ), who knows ?

Anyway, fast decisions are never made by me.

Best regards, Babette

[Tommy 73]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vocWSlaDcaE&t=239s https://youtu.be/mcWq_D4B9bA https://youtu.be/zDZ_ZZbTxH4 https://youtu.be/M2wFW3dpRNU https://youtu.be/TjLLoVJO7-M https://youtu.be/gtc3R159xpM logic would suggest the Genos is the next step but here are some PA4X video's that may help but I really would suggest if you can.. try both because I don't think you will ultimately know until you do... hope this helps a little. P.S. "OS V2" and "OS V3" have updated the pa4x considerably form the above video's. https://youtu.be/OGEHuaVd0tY https://youtu.be/pedC9sdBmwk

[Tankdave]

I would be waiting, mainly to give Korg a bit more time to unleash the Pa5x, it's not like you "have" to upgrade right now.

[beykock]

Hi Robinez and Karloo :

Let me first thank you for your time and your very useful feedback.🎩
Wonderful. I am very grateful. 💐

At the end of this week I think and hope I will know what I need to know.

I will take all the time I need before a decission will be made.

I have a lot of question marks in my head and it will not be easy ( for myself ) to get rid of my Ty5.
An instrument I know so well and never disappointed me.

But ... sometimes money can change people's mind. 💰

Best wishes, Babette

[pjd]

Hi Babette --

Sure, I have my wish list for Genos. There isn't a tech product around that doesn't need enhancement and evolution.

However, I strike a balance between wishes and my true experience with Genos. It is a terrific instrument -- a keeper. I don't casually turn over instruments due to budget and time. I intend to keep Genos for a very long time.

Only you can decide if Genos is a worthwhile step beyond T5. It was a no-brainer when I stepped up from S950. The T5 is a very respectable instrument -- a keeper in its own right.

No easy answers, but I hope this helps  -- pj

[KeyboardByBiggs]

I have a lot of question marks in my head and it will not be easy ( for myself ) to get rid of my Ty5. An instrument I know so well and never disappointed me.

I believe you've stated before you're not a gigging musician, you play mainly for your own enjoyment. Am I correct?

If so, and you love your Tyros 5, which is an awesome machine, don't let anyone or anything divert your attention.

Is there some feature on the Genos that has captivated your attention, something that's going to significantly increase the joy you experience while playing?

Unless you just love technology and always being on the cutting edge, upgrading just because there's something new isn't always required.

I was always drawn to the Tyros line. But...when the T5/76 came out, that's when I knew I HAD to have one! It was just circumstance I wasn't able to purchase until Genos came along. The machine you have now was what reached out and grabbed me.

If you do decide to go for a Genos, remember this forum is like a bubble or a magnifying glass where negatives are amplified. There are many more satisfied players who we'll never hear from.

[beykock]

I want to thank you ALL for your answers, links and wise words.
You helped me a lot.

For the timing being there is nothing more I have to say.
I am not such a good and fast decision maker when it comes to personal possessions like arranger kbs e.g.

I will keep you posted. Hopefully at the end of this week or later.

Best regards, Babette

[DonM]

I sure can't tell you what to do, but I will mention that, although the PA4X is several years old, it is an almost totally different arranger than when introduced, after two major upgrades (at no cost to users).
As for waiting for a 5x, that may be this year or certainly no later than next, BUT, I wouldn't buy any arranger, Korg, Yamaha or Ketron, when it first came out.  They all will have some bugs, most not serious, but it is wise to wait for at least a couple of months until the initial updates have been done.
In the event you change to Korg, you will need to be patient, learn the operating system, and don't expect it to be the same as Yamaha's.  You may think it better or worse, but once thing for certain is, it will be different. 

[valimaties]

Hi Babette.
My opinion?! If you are a home player, then Genos is the right choice. If you gig, then think about it, because is not yet prepaired for live gigging... MO

Regards,
Vali

[beykock]

Very interesting to hear the PA5X might be available at the end of this year, early next year, right Don ?
Good to hear the PA4X has changed completely
after the last update ( early 2019 ).

The first PA4X came in 2015.
Two years after the Tyros5.

I checked Korg's website today.
The last update ( V3 ) was a real upgrade, peolple say
( e.g. new styles and more).
Everything was free of charge.💰

Nobody can tell what the PA5X will bring.
A new look, additional features, new styles etc. ?
I will ask my dealer this week if dealers already have been informed about the PA5X.

I noticed Korg recently decreased the PA4X selling price.

Changes are in the air, I guess. 🐶

Time will tell.
Thanks DonM for your feedback ! 👍

Babette

[beykock]

Hi Vali,

I have a small digital ( except my Midas mixer ) home studio and work with DAWS ( XGWorks and Cakewalk e.g. ).
Only at home. Nowadays for fun only.

Arranging, Recording, Editing, Mixing and Mastering are my main passion(s).

When I was young - Digital Recording did not exist yet -
I used to work in pro recording studio's ( Belgium ).
Mixing was my main job.
A very long time ago.😢

Best wishes,
Babette

[Toril S]

I recently met an entertainer that is very satisfied gigging with his Genos.

[beykock]

Hi Toril,

All good arranger keyboards are suitable for gigging, I guess.

The quality ( playing, singing, entertaining, personality, choice of music, presentation and equipment ) of the gigger is the most important part, IMO. 🌟

Best wishes, Babette

[stephenm52]

I'll keep it simple..........I had a Tyros5, great arranger but I decided for gigging my Pa4x suited my needs better I sold the T5/76.    When Genos was released with the improvements I purchased one and will not sell it I gig with it most of the time, but for some gigs I take the Pa4x.

[Lloyd E]

Only you can make that decision. Listening to all the answers you get here will not make up your mind.

If possible, go to dealers and play various keyboards. Let this be your way to make a choice. Also be aware that different keyboards have different operating systems and can be difficult to learn a new system.  Lloyd

[elad770]

Well Babette,
  I should not take to much notice of all the complaints you hear about Genos. I have been with Yamaha keyboards over the last Twenty Five years and have found them to be very reliable and the service departments have always been first class. All keyboards have glitches when they come out and this is because they can not be bench tested to how we will want to use them.
   But each to there own as they say.

I can't agree with this more and every word i would add will make it worse but i will try

I just responded on the other thread. All the complaints about software issues is like scrutinize a Rolls-Royce Phantom and find that you don't like the sound of the door closing! LOL
These comments are welcome and i read and respond to them. But to say that this will be a factor to determine which keyboard to buy is really doing injustice to the Genos
Going back to the Rolls Royce example: Yes the door noise might be a big issue for you if you park inside a church and can not make a sound!
But again......... These are small things that only trying to improve what is already perfect! Trust me, by the time you will notice the stuff they are talking about Genos 3 Will be in the market,
You should not think twice about buying Genos! A brand New Genos in The US will run about 3850$ - Definitely affordable and if not, better wait!

[RoyB]

Hi Babette

I can only agree with others that, in the end, only you can make the decision that is right for you and I hope you will take as much time as necessary to make your own evaluations, and not to reach a decision, one way or the other, based purely on other peoples' opinions and experiences (although I agree it can be useful to take them into account in helping to reach that decision).

I too have a Tyros 5 and, after considering updating to the Genos, I made the personal decision that the Genos is not for me. I have been following the Genos topics with interest, but so far I have refrained from entering the numerous Genos discussions on this forum and from commenting as to why I arrived at that conclusion. After all, it is just my own personal decision based on my own personal needs and opinions. It is with some apprehension, therefore, that I am going to offer my comments now but, as you are now contemplating a similar move, I think you might be interested in why I decided to stay with what I've got (I am also 100% just a home player hobbyist who likes making home recordings).

You will find plenty of very satisfied Genos owners who say the Genos is the best sounding arranger ever, and I do not doubt in any way that they truly and genuinely feel that way. However, having tried a Genos (albeit rather briefly), and listened to plenty of recordings made by Genos owners, I found, rather like a few other people, that the Genos sound is not for me. When I tried it out of the box, when playing a song I found the right hand melody voices for me tended to sound rather harsh and tiring to listen to, whilst the style arrangements sounded bass heavy and 'muddy', and this original opinion has been reinforced by most of the user Genos recordings I've listened to.

I can't help but think that the Genos 'sound' is something of a conundrum - there is something about it which makes it much loved by most Genos owners, but which fails to impress some others. My confusion on this isn't helped by topics on this forum where Genos owners praise the superlative Genos sound, but in the next post criticise the onboard styles for having too much reverb and a bass that is too heavy. No doubt the underlying quality of the voices is to the usual Yamaha high standard (but how much different is the underlying quality of the Genos sound engine vrs Tyros 5?), but in the end I am guided by what I actually hear, and I do not find that the overall sound coming out of the Genos is enough to impress and tempt me. I can only advise that you need to try it yourself, if you can, to make up your own mind (take a set of your favourite headphones with you).

A comparison of the technical specs, functions/features, numbers of voices and styles, etc. will reveal that the Genos obviously has some improvements compared to the Tyros 5, and you will need to decide which of these are important for you. Also, there have been numerous criticisms throughout the pages on this forum regarding what Yamaha has not changed or improved (and, in a few cases, what has been left out or made worse), particularly when it comes to onboard editing and creativity. For me, having not been blown away by the sound of the Genos, the other improvements over the Tyros 5 were not enough to persuade me. If you do multi-track MIDI recordings/editing yourself using the on-board sequencer, and this is important for you, perhaps you should also take note of the user criticisms on this forum regarding the awkward methodology of doing this on the Genos (many touch-screen presses).

Basically, I did not hate or particularly dislike the Genos when I tried it - I just wasn't impressed enough. Together with my feeling that the Genos inherits too many of the restrictions and limitations from the Tyros 5 (particularly regarding its onboard editing and creativity capabilities), I just felt that its other improvements were not enough to justify (to me) its premium price and the significant cost of updating.

When you buy a Yamaha arranger you know largely what to expect - build quality, reliability, plenty of quality voices, styles and functions, and intuitive easy-to-use features are amongst these. You also know you will only be getting limited onboard creative editing capabilities compared to some of the competition. Yamaha also tends to be a bit tight when it comes to providing free bonusware compared to some of the competition. However, for me, a very compelling reason to stay with Yamaha is the huge amount of free extra resources available from sites like this, as well as the friendly and helpful user community. I'm not thrilled by the limited scope of Yamaha's software updates for its arrangers, or that Yamaha abandons the users of its previous arrangers (in terms of updates) after introducing a new model - how I would love for Yamaha to increase the size limitation on MIDI recordings for its other recent arranger models (including the more recent Tyros models) as they have done with the latest update for Genos. I suppose Yamaha is not alone in this - if only other keyboard manufacturers would take note of Wersi who provide real software updates with new features to provide an effective instrument life-span of at least 10 years (you do pay a very high price for the instrument in the first place!, but I'm sure there are ways for other manufacturers to help customers keep their expensive arranger keyboard products modern and refreshed for longer than the typical 4 yearly product cycle).

Modern arrangers are versatile, high quality, technically-sophisticated instruments with high quality sound engines, voices, styles and functions. For me, I now cannot see myself being tempted by a new arranger in the foreseeable future as the new models being introduced now tend largely to be modernised re-packages of existing technology but with newer processors, a few improvements and a few more voices, styles and features/functions. I think it would take someone to bring out a bold new arranger model that introduces some revolutionary and exciting new features/functions, or a completely different design or ways of doing things, (all at a reasonable price, of course), for me to be tempted. Otherwise, I think I will be staying with my Tyros 5-76 and Roland FA08 combination for some time to come as they together offer everything I want as a home player, and I expect to make any changes or enhancements to my setup through additional software purchases.

All of this of course is my own personal opinion, and I do not intend in any way to disparage or disrespect the opinion of all those who love the Genos, rate it highly and recommend it - after all, they must have good reason for this. But we humans are all different and each of us has different likes and dislikes; in the end, it is up to each of us to respect the reasoned opinions of others, accept that sometimes we will have different opinions, and to use our own judgements to make up our own minds and make our own decisions as to what we like and what is right for us.

As I said at the beginning, I hope you will take as much time as necessary to make your own evaluations - only you can make the decision that is right for you.

Best regards

Roy

[Fred Smith]

Babette,

I bought the Genos for much the same reasons as Kaarlo -- much lighter than a Tyros, easily ported around, and more than sufficient User drive space. And I'm very happy with it.

Since its purchase, what's surprised me is how much I like the updates which have come out. With the Tyros, the only thing we got was bug fixes. But with the Genos, every update has brought new, useful features. I expect this to continue, although I'm skeptical of another update in 2019, but I'd bet on one in 2020.

The irony is that the inclusion of new features in updates brings a lot of negative posts to the forum because, of course, their favorite feature wasn't included. But don't let that detract from the value of the updates.

Hope this helps,
Fred

[Toril S]

RoyB summed it all nicely up!

[beykock]

Thank you Fred and Roy for your great and very useful comments !
Both comments are completely different but very interesting.

Weight and size have never been an issue for me. 
My present arranger keyboard ( Ty5/76 ) has been installed in my home recording studio and does not need to be moved ever ( unless it will be sold  ).
Up to now ( cross my fingers ) : NEVER one single problem with my Ty5.
Moreover I am very proud to say there were not any other Tyros ( 1,2,3 and 4 ) problems ever before.

The Genos problems might be in their infancy but they are scaring me after 1.5 year.
I cannot deny some members, loyal Yamaha customers for many years ( like me ), are complaining here and are disappointed.

I need a lot of time to make the right decision.
As of tomorrow evening I will meet my dealer and I am looking forward to testing the Genos and the PA4X.
There are no other options available in that price range.
The only problem I have with Korg : I am not familiar with their OS. I am obliged to start from scratch.

As I said before, I am not a fast and easy decision maker. My possessions own me.
For me an arranger keyboard is in the first instance a musical instrument, not a computer.
Nowadays times have changed so quickly.
Not so long ago a good musical instrument was kept for life.


Best regards, Babette