Expansion manager override previous expansion packs

[jugge]

I just got a used Genos that came preloaded with some expansion packs. I also downloaded a free pack yesterday, but when I transferred that pack, it seams to have overwrite all other packs that was already there..
I am thinking it might have to to with that the previous owner used a different account. Is there anyway to get the old packs back?
Best regards
/Jörgen

[tyrosaurus]

Hi Jörgen,

Each time that you load an install pack on Genos via USB, it formats the expansion memory and deletes all existing content!

So if you loaded the new pack via USB, you have 'lost' everything that was already loaded.

Didn't you read the messages that appeared when you started to load the new pack?

The third one clearly says "All the Expansion Contents will be deleted. Continue?" and you must confirm if you want to continue. If you touch 'Cancel' at this message, the existing content will still be there.

You must have touched 'Confirm' for the loading process to continue. 

Even after that there is a final warning which gives you a final chance to cancel the process! You must also have confirmed that you wanted to continue in that message for the actual loading to start!

Your only hope is if the previous owner has provided a copy of the .ppi or .cpi installation file which you could use to install the expansion content that was previously loaded, but this won't include you new pack, and you can't load this into YEM.

The other possibility is that you were supplied with a YEM 'project file' (extension .ppf or .cpf) containing the packs that were previously loaded.  This can be imported into YEM and you can then make a new install file containing this content along with any new packs that you may have acquired.

Without either an install file (.ppi/.cpi), or preferably a project file (.ppf/.cpf), (or the original individual project files for each pack), then I'm afraid that the packs already loaded when you obtained the keyboard are lost!


Regards

Ian

[jugge]

Hi and thanks for the reply. I didn't used USB to install the packs (if that matters). Instead I used the expansion manager app and transferred the packs via WiFi.

I am not sure there was a warning message on the Genos because I did it from my computer and didn't watching the Genos screen at that time.

Anyway, why do it needs to format the expansion memory when installing a new pack? Can you only load one pack at a time?

I only got the packs already installed so I did not have those other files that you are mention but hopefully he still have the original .cpf files.

Do he need to unregistered the packs from Yamaha website first i or can I install the packs without issues? I ask because when using the expansion manager, I needed to enter my Yamaha account first.

Thanks
/Jörgen

[Ed B]

Hi
You use the Expansion Mgr to install all packs you want at the same. Retain the PPF or CPF files in the same drive and add to them when you want to add another pack. There are detailed instructions for the YEM.
https://europe.yamaha.com/files/download/other_assets/3/1136733/yamaha_expansion_manager_en_om_v250_h0.pdf

The reason that the memory is wiped clean each time is to use memory efficiently.
Hope this helps
Regards
Ed B

[jugge]

Thanks for the explanation. Lesson  learned 

[Lee Batchelor]

The reason that the memory is wiped clean each time is to use memory efficiently.

That's really interesting, Ed. Our conventional schemata (how we are accustomed to doing things) is that we can just add a file to an existing larger file. This thinking is common to all operating systems (OS). Too bad Yamaha failed to anticipate that someone would use the WiFi dongle to update the expansion pack and end up losing all existing packs because they were looking at a computer screen and not the Genos screen. Are similar warnings displayed on the computer screen?

I find a lot of Yamaha's OS methods go against conventional thinking. For example, "Copy here" instead of "Paste." You really need to think in different terms with these beasts! I completely disagree with that design mentality since the entire computing world uses basically one set of conventions. When one company steps outside the zone, it can mean trouble.

I can see the "efficient use of memory" argument from an engineering viewpoint, but when I download a file from the internet to my PC, my OS doesn't format the file folder for efficient use of memory. Talk about a trap door in a dark room - despite the double warning.

[EileenL]

You must forget about what a computer does or doesn't do. Genos has its own language and is not a computer in the way you think of it.

[Lee Batchelor]

Actually, Eileen the Genos is a conventional computer of sorts. It acts so similarly to a conventional computer that we don't make that distinction easily. 

Perhaps it's fair to say the Genos computer is just different in the same way that a PC differs from a Mac. They both have major commonalities though.

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi To All

I would have thought that Yamaha could have made Yem to load one pack individually at a time and cut out having to load everything taking lots of time.
That would be a great improvement if one of their programmers sorted that out as it is a pain.
The rest is ok with me, but the Gui looks a bit basic for a pro firm to put out.
The main thing though is that it does work.
Also Cubase is sometimes dodgy with editing midi.

May be interesting to some------------

If you record a song straight off on the Genos sequencer and have program changes to the lead track which how it works if on quick record the sound doubles sometimes and can play the previous sounds without changing. Things like that. The way over things like that is to go back to the beginning and come forward again or ignore the sounds and do the edits. When saving back to midi file It plays as it should on the Genos but you have to get used to minor glitches when editing. there is always a workaround.
I would of thought that Yamaha could of sorted the Sys Ex out properly by now. (Communication back and forwards between Genos and Computer)
I do like to play a song on quick record and do edits in Cubase , but strange things can happen.
The perfect way In Cubase is to record tracks separately, Instruments for each track. lego brick bulding in other words.
Well that's my half penny worth!!

All the best
john

[Lee Batchelor]

Communication back and forwards between Genos and Computer

Therein lies the problem, John. No one has ever come up with an easy way to record the Genos to a great DAW like Cubase. Note the word easy. Yes, it can be done, but I'd wager that less than one-half percent of Genos users are effective at it. I don't know how many times we need to ask Yamaha to help us record the Genos directly to a DAW. At this point, we spend 90 percent of our time on trying to get to the PC and Genos to play nice together in the sandbox. That leaves 10 percent for musicality and inspiration. Not good!

Now, I've gone and hijacked the topic. What were we talking about? Oh right...YEM and its non-conventional clumsy design when updating files .

[EileenL]

I have always found that if I want to alter voices and effects ect. the best way is to go back to the song recorder and select Step record. Select the track  and you can then alter or add voices, adjust reverb, panning, volume, all on this events page. If you have used other tracks for melody then alter them all the same way. All style parts can also be altered this way. Play it back and if happy with it save it.

[jugge]

Therein lies the problem, John. No one has ever come up with an easy way to record the Genos to a great DAW like Cubase. Note the word easy. Yes, it can be done, but I'd wager that less than one-half percent of Genos users are effective at it. I don't know how many times we need to ask Yamaha to help us record the Genos directly to a DAW. At this point, we spend 90 percent of our time on trying to get to the PC and Genos to play nice together in the sandbox. That leaves 10 percent for musicality and inspiration. Not good!

Now, I've gone and hijacked the topic. What were we talking about? Oh right...YEM and its non-conventional clumsy design when updating files .

Speaking of Cubase and Genos. Is there a tutorial around for using Genos with Cubase? At https://yamahasynth.com/ there are lots of tutorial by Bad Mister for how to setup Cubase with various Yamaha keyboards. Unfortunately not for Genos/Tyros

[Lee Batchelor]

Hi Jugge,

Yamaha regards the Montage keyboard as a professional level keyboard meant for live gigging or studio recording. They are right, and in keeping with that philosophy, they have created online tutorials (by Bad Mister) and standalone software that links the Montage to Cubase.

Years ago, a live recording function was added to the PSR, Tyros, and now Genos keyboards. Yamaha seems content with us to only use the onboard recording functions to record songs, and yet, they sneak it into their manuals that you can use a DAW like Cubase to record. Sadly, they do not provide any procedures that make the latter choice possible. I have no idea why. Eileen is 100 percent correct when she says we can get excellent results from the onboard recorders, but for extensive and rapid editing, you need a DAW.

We all hope that someday, Yamaha will admit that the Genos is a professional level keyboard worthy of recording, and give or sell us the appropriate software that seamlessly links it to Cubase. Until then, those of us who really want DAW integration need to buy a Montage...did I just answer my own question as to why Yamaha is dragging their heals on this ?

[jugge]

Hi Jugge,

Yamaha regards the Montage keyboard as a professional level keyboard meant for live gigging or studio recording. They are right, and in keeping with that philosophy, they have created online tutorials (by Bad Mister) and standalone software that links the Montage to Cubase.

Years ago, a live recording function was added to the PSR, Tyros, and now Genos keyboards. Yamaha seems content with us to only use the onboard recording functions to record songs, and yet, they sneak it into their manuals that you can use a DAW like Cubase to record. Sadly, they do not provide any procedures that make the latter choice possible. I have no idea why. Eileen is 100 percent correct when she says we can get excellent results from the onboard recorders, but for extensive and rapid editing, you need a DAW.

We all hope that someday, Yamaha will admit that the Genos is a professional level keyboard worthy of recording, and give or sell us the appropriate software that seamlessly links it to Cubase. Until then, those of us who really want DAW integration need to buy a Montage...did I just answer my own question as to why Yamaha is dragging their heals on this ?

Thanks for the input, Lee. In a sort of way, I am quite exciting to try the built in recorder.

Even though I appreciate the editing power of a DAW I feel that it sometimes takes my focus away from the music and instead I often find my self trying to figure out how I can record arpeggios as midi data or which drum VST I should use etc.

When I started with music as a teenager 30 years ago, everything was so much simpler. I was using a DX7, an Alesis drum machine and a cheap fender squire guitar. Everything was then recorded onto a Tascam or Fostex portastudio.

Simple but quite fun if I remember correctly, I am kind of hoping that the Genos will bring back that feeling again and so far I am really enjoying this beast and I will try out the built in recorder soon.

[Lee Batchelor]

When I started with music as a teenager 30 years ago, everything was so much simpler. I was using a DX7, an Alesis drum machine, and a cheap fender squire guitar. Everything was then recorded onto a Tascam or Fostex portastudio.

Ah, the good old days when developers would not release a piece of software until it worked 100 percent - or darn near! My first recordings were with a Korg M1 and Roland Sound Canvas linked to a DOS program made by Voyetra called Sequencer Plus. It was very slick and easy to use. Then again, I was recording MIDI from a synth and sound module. My dad had a small PSR of some sort and the manual said you could record it to a DAW. Neither of us could get it to work. That was 29 years ago. Nothing has changed on that front!!

I wish Yamaha would read this one post and act on it!!!

[pjd]

We all hope that someday, Yamaha will admit that the Genos is a professional level keyboard worthy of recording, and give or sell us the appropriate software that seamlessly links it to Cubase. Until then, those of us who really want DAW integration need to buy a Montage...did I just answer my own question as to why Yamaha is dragging their heals on this ?

Hi Lee --

Thanks for your comments!

I had a conversation with Nithin Cherian (Steinberg product manager) last Summer at Boston Music Expo. Nithin explained that keyboard-specific feature requests needed to come from the product group itself, i.e., the Genos team needs to make a direct request to Steinberg. As he explained it, each product group is responsible for the "customer experience" that they want to create. (Lord, how I hate that phrase!) So, if the Genos marketing team decides that DAW integration is needed by customers, then the Genos team needs to request it. Big company politics, errr, decision process.

I honestly wish I knew what it would take to convince the Genos team. They need a collection point like IdeaScale where users can vote for features. Then they would see that it's not just one or two people.

Hey, hey, all the best -- pj

[Lee Batchelor]

Very interesting, pjd. Thanks for chiming in on that. I suspect Yamaha has been monitoring endless requests over the years for decent DAW integration but are still of the mindset, "If we give arranger customers a simple DAW integration tool, we'll shoot down sales of the Montage." I honestly believe that. Were it in my power, I would rewrite the Reference Manual section about  DAW integration as something like...

"You can record MIDI from your Genos directly to any DAW program, however, doing so is a very complex process and we do not believe you should in the first place because we still need to make money on the Montage keyboard, and we would be shooting ourselves in the foot." (I know, it's a huge run-on sentence!)

Realistically, Yamaha could offer a simple solution. For some reason, they choose not to. I'd wager that most serious Genos owners who wish to record would be willing to pay a fee for such integration software - I know I would! Would revenues from such a tool offset the supposed loss of sales of the Montage? On the other hand, Genos and Montage owners are opposite sides of the same coin. There may not be any effect at all.

Once again, we've drifted way off topic. It's not the first time this has happened on these forums ! I'll stop now.

[Fred Smith]

Ah, the good old days when developers would not release a piece of software until it worked 100 percent - or darn near!

There were no such days, Lee. Software has always had bugs, and always will, as long as users ask for more features. What's changed are two things: price and the speed with which bugs can be fixed.

Remember paying $499 for Excel? Those days are long gone. Now, everyone wants software for free. But free has a price. Part of the price is that users do a lot of the testing. And users are happy to pay the price because bugs get fixed relatively quickly. There's also the synergy that users get requested features implemented quicker because of the short turnaround cycle.

I wish Yamaha would read this one post and act on it!!!

Yamaha will act on it when they perceive a market for it. That's what you need to convince them of.

Cheers,
Fred

[Lee Batchelor]

There were no such days, Lee. Software has always had bugs, and always will, as long as users ask for more features.

Incorrect, Fred. Sequencer Plus worked flawlessly out of the box. It had all the features I needed to produce 130 Broadway backing scores for up to 15 singers. Today's software is released to us guinea pigs. Developers have responded to customer demands for more features but fail to perfect those features. That's where we agree.

Yamaha will act on it when they perceive a market for it. That's what you need to convince them of.

And how many years and how many times do we need to ask? I know the bulk of Genos users could care less about recording with a DAW, but there is still a demand. The real task is getting Yamaha's attitude to change. I believe you said that .

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi Fred

Yamaha and steinburg just need to look at the SYS EX communication that's all
If you edit a song in the middle on one track you have to go back to where the last sync sound point is and replay to check your work.
Sometimes the sound doubles and you can even get whistles and bells instead of your sound you put in 
I can get around all these things but sometimes you have to ignore the sounds and just do edits, as long it is a similar type of instrument
Cubase can be difficult sometimes when you want to record from Cubase with midi triggering the Genos
Go back to the Genos and all ok!!
With midi i record on the Genos sequencer and then transfer to Cubase, otherwise it is lego brick bulding with VST

  Bold Statement
BUT THAT FLIPPIN' YEM NEEDS TO LOAD  ONE PACK AT A TIME WITHOUT ALL THE REST!!!

All the best
John

It must be the delerium that makes me bend off the subject and come back wibbly wobbly and slidey