Understanding NTT/NTR Guitar mode...

alfaholic · February 28, 2019, 01:02:59 PM

Hello everyone,

I am making some guitar strumming parts for my styles, however I would like to use Yamaha's NTT/NTR guitar mode, however I am not sure I understand how it works. In order to get C major guitar parts I need to play this chord: C#-F-G-A-H, and the same is with Yamaha's internal factory styles.

Does anyone understands the logic behind this?

pjd · March 01, 2019, 09:22:53 AM

Quoting from an earlier post:

Regarding CMaj7 and style creation...

Please check out the Reference Manual section titled "SFF Edit -- Making Style File Format Settings" or something like that. In the Genos Reference Manual, it starts on page 21.

The arranger converts notes taken from the source pattern (AKA notes in a MIDI Part belonging to a style) to the actual notes sounded by the instrument. The conversion is guided by the Note Transposition Rule (NTR) and Note Transposition Table (NTT).

The NTR depends upon the Chord Root. The NTT depends upon the Chord Type. Along with NTR and NTT, you get to specify the Chord Root ("C") and the Chord Type ("M7").

The Chord Root and the Chord Type, taken together determine the Source Chord from which MIDI notes in the style phrase are taken.

Guess what? The Source Chord does not have to be "CMaj7". If you tear enough Yamaha styles apart, you'll see guitar phrases built on "E7" or some other Source Chord other than CMaj7.

CMaj7 is the default in Style Creator, so many people just go along with the default. You can use any source chord that you want. You must be sure to change the SFF definition to match accordingly.

pjd · March 01, 2019, 09:31:39 AM

Quote from: alfaholic on February 28, 2019, 01:02:59 PM
In order to get C major guitar parts I need to play this chord: C#-F-G-A-H, ...

The most typical (default) case is the CMaj7 chord:


C    Chord note
D    Recommended note
E    Chord note
G    Chord note
A    Recommended note
B    Chord note

Genos Reference Manual, page 20. The chord root note and chord type effectively specify the scale tones that build the MIDI phrase (the so-called "source pattern").

Hope this info helps -- pj

pjd · March 01, 2019, 09:43:44 AM

Oh, almost forgot...

If you're doing strummed guitar in a style, there are some undocumented tricks. I recommend opening and studying Yamaha factory styles in a DAW. Take a look at the guitar parts (tracks).

Example: FunkPopRock.T162, track 12. You'll see a group of notes one whole tone apart, e.g., F-G-A-B. This is shorthand for telling the arranger to apply its internal guitar note table to generate a chord according to the chord root and chord type specified in the NTR/NTT. I haven't used this trick myself, but it might save you some time.

All the best -- pj

P.S. Michael B's StyleDump program is an essential tool. Thank you, Michael!

valimaties · March 01, 2019, 10:26:35 AM

Quote from: pjd on March 01, 2019, 09:43:44 AM
Oh, almost forgot...

If you're doing strummed guitar in a style, there are some undocumented tricks. I recommend opening and studying Yamaha factory styles in a DAW. Take a look at the guitar parts (tracks).

Example: FunkPopRock.T162, track 12. You'll see a group of notes one whole tone apart, e.g., F-G-A-B. This is shorthand for telling the arranger to apply its internal guitar note table to generate a chord according to the chord root and chord type specified in the NTR/NTT. I haven't used this trick myself, but it might save you some time.

All the best -- pj

P.S. Michael B's StyleDump program is an essential tool. Thank you, Michael!

Please don't be bother, all of you because what I will tell, but, Korg's Guitar mode, regarding to a scale from 1 to 10, is something like 9-10, and Yamaha's guitar mode to 1-2.
Korg split the keyboard in 6 different parts in guitar mode. One of the parts uses some of keys directly for strumming or other keys for arpeggios. The second part (as Guitar mode of Yamaha do, but...) is that will uses keys as guitar strings, each key for each guitar string, one to mute the first six. Another part, a long part with 2 or 3 octaves of keys where you can play free notes (you will hear what you play) and so on...
Yamaha's guitar mode, as I said, uses only one part of Korg. But even so, on Yamaha when you play G you will hear G, when you play A you will hear A, and so on. On Korg, when you play C you will hear the sound of string by conversion of string according to the root chord, C# will be the second string, etc... So on Korg, when you play A-B-C-D-E, you will hear a real chord, but on Yamaha you will hear something very strange, the real sounds, which is very annoying...

So, in my opinion, Korg wins on Guitar Mode.

PS: Sorry if I was off topic, but I explain how the guitar mode I expected to be in Yamaha, too. I wrote some time ago a Guitar Mode channel in Yamaha, and it was very hard to make it sounds as it has to be.

Best regards,
Vali

alfaholic · March 02, 2019, 01:27:38 PM

Thank you all.

Yes it is much better in Korg Pa, but still not good enough. It makes the strumming chords by moving the notes, but it does not center the chord to the central string in the chord so guitar mode in Korg always has latency. Other than that it does not allow you to edit velocity for each string so it often sounds synthetic. Yamaha factory styles sound good, but still factory guitar although very good is not the best option for strumming.

I am not satisfied with this so I decided to make my own strummer, this will sound much better and have playability similar to Korg Pa guitar mode, also patterns can be programmed and played in real time very easily. I just made some short demo:

Genos Strummer

rodrigo.b · March 02, 2019, 05:11:12 PM

Quote from: alfaholic on March 02, 2019, 01:27:38 PM
Thank you all.

Yes it is much better in Korg Pa, but still not good enough. It makes the strumming chords by moving the notes, but it does not center the chord to the central string in the chord so guitar mode in Korg always has latency. Other than that it does not allow you to edit velocity for each string so it often sounds synthetic. Yamaha factory styles sound good, but still factory guitar although very good is not the best option for strumming.

I am not satisfied with this so I decided to make my own strummer, this will sound much better and have playability similar to Korg Pa guitar mode, also patterns can be programmed and played in real time very easily. I just made some short demo:

Genos Strummer

Amazing, Is that a computer software? :O

DrakeM · March 02, 2019, 05:39:04 PM

Yea, I continue to mess around with the Chord Root and the Chord Type settings when making my custom styles. I still haven't got it to make any sense in changing them. I just keep switching to the next one until I get the guitar pattern to sound the way I want it (or as close as I can get it, most times.)

For me its just been a scrap shoot but I keep plugging away at it. I'll give that "E7" setting a try next time.

alfaholic · March 02, 2019, 07:10:50 PM

Quote from: rodrigo.b on March 02, 2019, 05:11:12 PM

Amazing, Is that a computer software? :O

Oh no, this is all PSR/Genos. I made some special sampled guitar to make it possible.

rodrigo.b · March 02, 2019, 09:39:58 PM

Quote from: alfaholic on March 02, 2019, 07:10:50 PM
Oh no, this is all PSR/Genos. I made some special sampled guitar to make it possible.

:O amazing, it's a megavoice?

alfaholic · March 03, 2019, 05:20:49 AM

Quote from: rodrigo.b on March 02, 2019, 09:39:58 PM
:O amazing, it's a megavoice?

It is based on velocity layers so it is similar to Mega Voices but not the same. I will make some video soon explaining how it is used and what can be achieved by using it.

valimaties · March 04, 2019, 08:39:34 AM

Quote from: alfaholic on March 02, 2019, 01:27:38 PM
Thank you all.

Yes it is much better in Korg Pa, but still not good enough. It makes the strumming chords by moving the notes, but it does not center the chord to the central string in the chord so guitar mode in Korg always has latency. Other than that it does not allow you to edit velocity for each string so it often sounds synthetic. Yamaha factory styles sound good, but still factory guitar although very good is not the best option for strumming.
...

Hi there.
It's not true, at all! What you say is about those keys that has already strumming on them, but you can make your own strumming by using the correct octave, which has string by string, and like this you can set each key its expression... If you wrote Korg strumming with Guitar Mode, you did not made it as it had to be... Also, you said it not center the chord?! You did not chose correct mode to center the keys... It have the ability to do that, please check it again, I made it when I had PA3X

But seems too complex, did not?!

Regards,
Vali

alfaholic · March 10, 2019, 04:32:26 PM

All true, but I am taking about different things. Korg makes strumminh quantized on tbe first note, and that as a result has latency.

valimaties · March 11, 2019, 06:28:33 AM

Quote from: alfaholic on March 10, 2019, 04:32:26 PM
All true, but I am taking about different things. Korg makes strumminh quantized on tbe first note, and that as a result has latency.

Ok, if you can make strumming NOT quantized on the first time of the first measure on any keyboard in the world, please advise me

I don't know if you can make it to sound as in real world, because the first string in strumming is a few fraction time before first time of first measure. Of course, you can put the keys in the end of the variation, but when you play the variation, the first sound impact is missing some keys from strumming chord.
It's easy in Korg to trick this thing by increasing variation measures number (is: from 4 to 16, or 32) so the first strumming will be with that little lag only one time in 32 measures, and this is well for me. All the other keys will be moved some fractions of time (minus 40-60).

Regards,
Vali

ckobu · April 13, 2020, 01:40:32 PM

Guitar rule does not require CM7. The same goes for Chord and Recommended tones, they are not in use.
In my video you can see why the notes f, g, a, h are used.

https://youtu.be/bJ8Sip05_24?t=191

Snicker740 · April 13, 2020, 07:48:07 PM

This is how I create Megavoice guitar tracks for me. I used the factory pre-buffers, unlocked it and rearranged it on the Cakewalk.
I then added Genos and set NTR / NNT to Guitar Mode.
I tried it. If my intention is not correct, I rearrange. Although it takes a little time, the results will be very satisfactory.

https://youtu.be/0AZa84EjMyY

And this is the finished product. You can listen from 0.22 seconds if you don't have time.
https://youtu.be/3SZqP44HghM

ckobu · April 14, 2020, 01:43:24 AM

@Snicker740, I listen to all your rhythms, you do a great job.
Post-processing of the guitar is always needed. Especially if we didn't play well in Style Creator. I also prefer Cakewalk.
I didn't show that part in the video. I wanted to explain how to make an accompaniment in Guitar mode from the beginning, without the factory style preset.

MusicMan · April 14, 2020, 05:28:32 AM

Quote from: Snicker740 on April 13, 2020, 07:48:07 PM
This is how I create Megavoice guitar tracks for me. I used the factory pre-buffers, unlocked it and rearranged it on the Cakewalk.
I then added Genos and set NTR / NNT to Guitar Mode.
I tried it. If my intention is not correct, I rearrange. Although it takes a little time, the results will be very satisfactory.

https://youtu.be/0AZa84EjMyY

And this is the finished product. You can listen from 0.22 seconds if you don't have time.
https://youtu.be/3SZqP44HghM

Would you be kind enough to post that original Guitar style so I can study it?

Regards

Snicker740 · April 14, 2020, 08:24:23 PM

Quote from: MusicMan on April 14, 2020, 05:28:32 AM
Would you be kind enough to post that original Guitar style so I can study it?

Regards

Want to listen to the original Guitar style?
Go to the Style factory category on Genos. Then click on the Rock tab and go to page 3. You will see the style: BritRockPop.
Switch to MAIN C, and press and hold to Solo Chord1 channel. 'It's the original guitar style that I used to reprocess it to suit my style.
Best regards!

MusicMan · April 23, 2020, 09:00:55 PM

Quote from: Snicker740 on April 14, 2020, 08:24:23 PM
Want to listen to the original Guitar style?
Go to the Style factory category on Genos. Then click on the Rock tab and go to page 3. You will see the style: BritRockPop.
Switch to MAIN C, and press and hold to Solo Chord1 channel. 'It's the original guitar style that I used to reprocess it to suit my style.
Best regards!

HI @Snicker740

No, I meant, can you post / upload the finished product that you created from BritRockPop.

Thank you