Genos and young musicians ?

[markstyles]

Most arranger buyers, seem to be older. First, they are more likely to have the money.

A lot of buyers are doing one man band situations. It makes sense. You don't have to deal with 4 other guys, a ton of equipment.  It is more profitable for one person to have a high end arranger kbd.

I hesitated for many years buying an arranger keyboard, because i felt I was 'cheating' as a musician.  And often other musicians think that too.  When  DJ's started getting all the gigs, and musicians were dropped by many clubs, there was the same complaint.

Truth is 'the times - they are a ALWAYS changing.  What ever tool or technique helps you to make music is valid in one sense.   Arranger keyboards, don't serve a big purpose in a band, cause you've already got a drummer, bass player, guitar etc.  For many young musicians, playing in a band, is what makes it exciting. The comradely.

I would assume more younger musicians are buying arrangers.  They are certainly very helpful in studio work, for a singe composer, songwriter.

[pedro_pedroc]

Hello, Babette.

What's young for you?
I don't know, but I play Yamaha keybords since 15 years old, now I have 41, and I'm still a child! 

Take a look at my channel:

https://www.youtube.com/user/pedromseleuterio

There are some new music / pop / rock also, and of course, some classic ballads / movies / etc...

Regards,
Pedro Eleuterio
Brazil

I wonder if young musicians are buying the Genos ?

IMHO most young musicians prefer to play electronic piano's and / or synths.

Am I right or wrong ? 😯

Babette

[mikf]

Some younger people play arrangers, of course, but most arranger players are older. Price is one issue, but it's also because of what Mark says, young players want to play in bands. It's not a bad thing either, I would not advocate a young person to choose an arranger for their first instrument if they want to learn to play keyboard. Young people have time to learn to play, and converting to an arranger type instrument later if required would be easy. On the other hand, it's much harder to learn to play piano or similar when you are older - and you want fast results. So arrangers are appealing because they are much easier to learn.
Mike

[beykock]

Hi Pedro,

Thank you for your reply.

In my perception young pop musicians prefer to play a piano, a synth, a ( bass ) guitar or drums.

Babette

[rattley]

Mark wrote   "I hesitated for many years buying an arranger keyboard, because i felt I was 'cheating' as a musician"..............

I'm 59 and have had Yamaha arrangers (PSR Tyros and Genos) since high school. A few people have suggested my playing is somehow cheating as all those accompaniment voices are canned. I am not a pro . I rarely play with other musicians. So I must ask.......... Where or how else could a guy like me have a complete band or orchestra available to play with my songs??  My accompaniment is always on time. They don't drink. They don't fight. They obey my every command without question and we perform beautifully together. I'm not sure if many younger players play styles as I do. Genos is a musical instrument and pressing buttons or touch screens as well as playing the keys is technique. Just having the knowledge to control features is also technique. To be good at playing any instrument, whether electronic or acoustic, one must know and learn all the subtleties of that instrument.   -charley

[Gunnar Jonny]

Hi.

I'm growing older for each arranger keyboard that manage to pull money out of my bankaccount.
Bought my first 'autocompmachine' just for fun in the early 80'ies. Now we're writing 2019.
Looks like I've become an old fart with fairly new arranger, but was quite young when buy the first one.....

Sadly, I don't think that the young and upcoming musicians realize what those arrangers really are capable to do. 

[Lee Batchelor]

I'm 59 and have had Yamaha arrangers (PSR Tyros and Genos) since high school. A few people have suggested my playing is somehow cheating as all those accompaniment voices are canned. I am not a pro. I rarely play with other musicians. So I must ask.......... Where or how else could a guy like me have a complete band or orchestra available to play with my songs??  My accompaniment is always on time. They don't drink. They don't fight. They obey my every command without question and we perform beautifully together. I'm not sure if many younger players play styles as I do. Genos is a musical instrument and pressing buttons or touch screens as well as playing the keys is technique. Just having the knowledge to control features is also technique. To be good at playing any instrument, whether electronic or acoustic, one must know and learn all the subtleties of that instrument.   -Charley

Well put, Charley.

One other thing your friends are missing is, there's more to playing an arranger keyboard than pushing buttons and keys. When you have all those additional instruments playing along with you, sometimes you need to turn them up, down, or off all together. That takes something that a lot of arranger keyboard critics don't have - musicianship. Anyone can play the notes and chords, but can they make music? Many so-called musicians equate loud gear with musical appeal. Rubbish. The great orchestra leaders like Mancini, Feidler, and Kunzel were loud at times, but well controlled. There you go .

[panos]

I hesitated for many years buying an arranger keyboard, because i felt I was 'cheating' as a musician.  And often other musicians think that too.

In this "cheating" logic I guess the only real musician is the one who takes some objects made by nature, finds out where the notes are and plays music.
Every other "musician" is using technology before or after the invention of electricity.

A simple string(chord) of a guitar or a violin or a piano,or the holes of a flute also are using technology.
Some they like to call it "ancient" technology but still it is not only musician's ability that creates music.

[whataguy]

It is called an 'Arranger' for a reason in that it requires that you think like those individual instruments. A big 'tell' is when players play a full right hand chord with a clarinet or trumpet, doesn't that require slits in your teeth? D♡

[JanCK]

Regarding musicianship, the Genos has absolutely improved my musicianship in several ways!  For example, since there's no way to re-set "beat 1", I'm very much more aware of staying in time.   Just to use drum fills requires me to know exactly which beat in each measure I'm on.  When you play solo piano, it's really common to add or drop beats, add measures whenever you want, and play rubato without really meaning to.  So with the Genos, my timing has really stabilized, and playing along to the various styles and rhythms draws out music that I never could generate by myself, without having the styles and rhythm to respond to. (I guess any arranger would do that, but Genos is my only experience with arranger kbs.)

Unlike playing with a band, I can keep one song going for over an hour if I want, and nobody complains or refuses to keep playing.  That is huge, because I can explore different ways to play a song or chord progression to my heart's content.  This has helped really get various chords and voicings, and creative use of scales, into my body, instead of just my mind.  Just because you can understand the various aspects of music intellectually, doesn't mean you can actually play it -- until you play it over and over and over and over, until you don't need to think about it anymore.  As someone who has spent countless hours playing exercises around the circle of 5ths, I can tell you without question, the Genos has made growing as a musician waaaaaaay more fun and productive (despite the big technological learning curve).

Also, learning to  adjust and adapt styles to match the sound I'm after has really improved how I listen to music.  I hear so much more, so my "ear" has greatly improved.

Regarding arrangers as cheating, or not for gigs -- I think Genos is great for playing solo, as part of a duo or even in a whole band, because it's versatile in how you can use it.  Even if you just use the various voices to play leads in a band and to comp just as you would with a regular keyboard, it can be a great addition to any band if only for the high quality of voice sounds.  Right now I'm exploring ways to play more meditative music for a local hospice house, using more of the synthesized sounds, strings, pads, etc. (BTW, would love to "talk" with any of you out there who are using Genos in this setting.)  I  don't imagine the bass and drums will be that useful there!  But they sure will be with a duo partner and in a band, and solo, when I'm more confident in operating the computer aspects.  The point is, you can still play the Genos as you would a regular keyboard, or add in the pieces that are missing, and that would just be like hiring the bassist, drummer, etc. (well, almost, anyway). That being said, when I do start gigging with the Genos this Fall, I expect to get criticism from other local musicians, especially when playing solo.  So be it.  Nice to be at an age in life where, who cares about a little criticism??!!

[whataguy]

Print that post and frame it, this tells it all and right on the money. Couldn't criticism be defined as envy? Many times when people hear me playing the Genos they say 'that's like playing a jukebox, anybody can play that' to which I slide off the bench and invite them to make music. This also includes straight piano or organ players, too. At the beginning of my playing career (tube lowrey organ) and had to play for dancing, requiring the old pedal-chord, pedal-chord, I purchased a Seeberg auto-rhythm unit and was accused of cheating for not having a real drummer. And look where we are today. Do your thing and remember criticism and compliment both begin with a 'C'. D♡

[pjd]

In this "cheating" logic I guess the only real musician is the one who takes some objects made by nature, finds out where the notes are and plays music.

Amen. There are huge flame wars on the Keyboard (Magazine) Forum about the transpose button alone! [Please don't start such a thread here.  ]

Being a musician (amateur, pro, hack, dweezle, whatever) is as much about musicality as it is about dexterity, etc. and other skills both basic and refined. Same thing could be said about being an entertainer which adds a whole 'nother layer on top.

All the best -- pj

BTW, I regard myself as a musician, but not an entertainer.

[Lee Batchelor]

That being said, when I do start gigging with the Genos this Fall, I expect to get criticism from other local musicians, especially when playing solo.

So long as you don't get criticism from those who are listening to you play. After all, they are the ones paying your fee. The critical musicians are not! Great post!

[JanCK]

It seems like it's human nature to criticize, so it comes from audiences, as well as musicians.  The good thing is, if you're having fun playing the music you love, there will be some who resonate with what you're playing who will enjoy it.  You can't please all the people all the time, so please yourself and some others will come along with you.  The others will leave early.  I always say, there's no explaining a person's taste in food, love or music!  You either like tomatoes or you don't, and who's to say either is wrong or right?  Same with taste in music, so you just can't take these things personally.  (Ha-ha, I'll remind myself of this as needed.)

[Bachus]

I wonder if young musicians are buying the Genos ?

IMHO most young musicians prefer to play electronic piano's and / or synths.

Am I right or wrong ? 😯

Babette

A fun thing babette..

Many young people try to mimmick arrangers on the MODX..
Using arps for backings and setting it up more arranger like..

Just browse the webs and see..

There is 3 things holding young people from Genos
1) content, there is to much oldies content and not much modern content
2) Unfamiliarity with the controll concept
3) The price

this all for the western world..

In south east asia arrangers are still booming, young and old plays them..
Mostly in the cheaper regions like sub $1000

[beykock]

Hi Bachus,

It looks like you are well aware of the needs of young musicians.
Thank you for your very interesting comments ! 💐

Babette

[mikf]

This subject keeps coming up as it it matters. It doesn't, eventually young players become old players and they buy arrangers. So Yamaha sells them Montage when they are 20 and Genos when they are 50. The market for arrangers is never ending.
Mike

[panos]

Pjd,
this one is for the "experts" in music.
They might learned something useful from it.
https://www.google.com/doodles/celebrating-johann-sebastian-bach

I wonder how much the "theoretical" opinions of music experts are really worth when for the past decades all we hear are the same reproduced melodies again and again and again....

The only thing that was improved lately is just the sound and not in all cases maybe?

Anyway,who is right and who is wrong about "real" or not real musicians?

Socrates maybe has got the answer to that:
"I know that I know nothing"

[Bachus]

Pjd,
this one is for the "experts" in music.
They might learned something useful from it.
https://www.google.com/doodles/celebrating-johann-sebastian-bach

I wonder how much the "theoretical" opinions of music experts are really worth when for the past decades all we hear are the same reproduced melodies again and again and again....

The only thing that was improved lately is just the sound and not in all cases maybe?

Anyway,who is right and who is wrong about "real" or not real musicians?

Socrates maybe has got the answer to that:
"I know that I know nothing"

I personally both enjoy Bach (hench my name) and modern technology advancements.
But another personal hero of me, Freddy Mercury once said :

We are in a golden age of music. There will be a time when technology becomes so advanced that we'll rely on it to make music rather than raw talent...and music will lose its soul.

When in their creative process people start relying more and more on AI, music may grow stale
What looks like a good thing today, may bite us in the back tomorrow.

[Lee Batchelor]

We are in a golden age of music. There will be a time when technology becomes so advanced that we'll rely on it to make music rather than raw talent...and music will lose its soul.

Wow, Bachus! I was never aware of that quote. Truer words were never spoken. I work with a lot of top-flight musicians, and we all agree that very little "soul" has been injected into music since the late 70s, early 80s. Today's music is a mashup of electronic, thumpy crap that sounds like it's being sung by a whiny robot. The latter sound being the result of electronic manipulation of a person's singing voice, who should give up trying to sing and go back to stamp collecting or something else. They try to compensate for a lack of talent by using enhanced electronics. Heck, I'd wager with the tools of today, you could make Kermit the Frog sound like Michael Buble!

At least with an arranger keyboard, we can still play real music from those golden years, with a reasonable amount of authentic sounds. Each generation of arranger seems to be closer to mimicking the real band that created the song. I can't speak for anyone else, but since my first purchase of a PSR630, PSR740, PSR2000, PSR3000, Tyros 2, Tyros 4, Tyros 5, and now Genos, my musical "soul" has increased, as has my overall skills. So, it doesn't have to happen the way Freddy describes.