Very Important Topic

[elad770]

Ok, I don't want to sound dramatic But.....

I'm new to Genos and it's Perfect. The problem is that it's too perfect! And the possibilities are endless.
Cms studios just came with beautiful new sound samples and the more i dig in i can clearly see that this instrument is Limitless. Which leads me to the ONLY annoying thing which is major for me.
The limitation of the 1.8gb Flash memory literally cripples the instrument from doing what it's supposed to do, which is to do everything and be all over the place : ) LOL
Every expansion pack and few voices fill the memory completely and every time i feel like playing something different at a different pack i need to format and install. It's very very annoying.
Who cares of having 60gb Hard drive or 1000gb Hard Drive if the only thing that limits me is the 1.8gb Flas drive. Literally a Lebanon or persian pack take 1/3. Fransesco messa's (Gd bless him) Stuff takes place and before you know it, it's Full!

But here's the MAIN thing. I found that there's actually a solution to kind of bypass this limitation and virtually Use Audio somehow to create a style without using the packs and having the styles eventually on my USB OR hard drive.

Everything is explained here: http://www.psrtutorial.com/forum/index.php?topic=45363.0

Mr Snicker740 Demonstrated in a video but i still can't figure it out: What is the AUDIO phraser, How to use it?

This seems to be the answer to all my problems, what seems to be a very Powerful tool to integrate audio to a style. I still can not connect the Dots of how this is useful to me but i know it is !

Can someone, Please make a video or thoroughly explain this concept? Appreciate you all

Elad770

[elad770]

I'm sorry for the long post but i would like to simplify my quetion :

Here's a WAV File:

Alan Walker - Fade

How can i Create Loop in A style and play it. This subsequently means that it can be saved as part of a style/file registration without relying on the internal memory.
The Next Step would be to utilize this tool to make voices and styles from PPF packs into audio files that can be looped and assigned, But again I have NO clue how to even start

https://www.dropbox.com/s/0ozr2imuj5i0r0p/Alan%20Walker%20-%20Fade%20.wav?dl=0

[soundphase]

Cms studios just came with beautiful new sound samples and the more i dig in i can clearly see that this instrument is Limitless. Which leads me to the ONLY annoying thing which is major for me.
The limitation of the 1.8gb Flash memory literally cripples the instrument from doing what it's supposed to do, which is to do everything and be all over the place : ) LOL

+1. Totally agree. With a huge amount of RAM and a powerful SSD, the Genos will be fantastic.

[panos]

I don't know if this helps
https://usa.yamaha.com/support/updates/yap_win.html

https://usa.yamaha.com/support/updates/yap_mac.html

I cannot understand what he is saying but an idea what this is about.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2jIXtMEvlU

I don't really find this process easier than just create/change a midi drum part.
ok the audio drum may sound more "live" but pretty dificult maybe?

If it is to make more parts than just drums as audio parts of the style,
then it is like playing along with a  midi or like playing along with a wav/mp3 file.

[DerekA]

So it's true there is a method to play the WAV part of audio styles from the USB.

But the fact is, those audio parts are fixed pitch - for example drum tracks.

The closest thing to what you're trying to do is an audio multi pad. This lets you trigger wave samples from your USB. But again - they are fixed pitch. They can't be used to create a voice that changes pitch with the keys.

The only way to get custom samples which pitch shift is to create a voice in YEM and load it into expansion memory. I do agree that 1.8GB is rather mean. I don't know if there is some technical reason that they can't just use cheaper memory. Maybe it's just a marketing ploy, like Apple who charge an absolute fortune for a few more GB in their devices.

[elad770]

Guys, thank you so much.

I think i understand it a bit better now. I think this feature like you said will be helpful if i'm only interested of a unique Drum set or any other pattern that doesn't require any change when i hit a different chord or a key. But if that is the case, again as you said, why would i need that. I can, indeed use the multi-pad and link the Audio. I guess i will have a bit more control using the audio phrase because it makes a style out of it and the only additional control will be better Temp and other responses that are triggered better if played as a style (As opposed to multi Pad)

In regards to the 1.8gb. Seriously, what were they thinking? You install 1 Pack and few voices and that's it? From now on you need to choose what to remove or add when you want to play something else? I don't understand how people are not making a big noise about it. This is like manufacturing a Rolls Royce With a 1.4L Engine and to say that this should be enough. Well,,, Yeh, the car will move but......Are you serious Yamaha?

The only thing i can think of is that they are doing what Korg is doing and it's pure marketing:
Korg and Yamaha cannot produce a flagship model every year but with Korg latest update they make it as if you are getting such an upgrade to your device that it seems like a better model, Plus you are getting it for free, so it attracts people. Yamaha will probably come up with a firmware that will add a certain feature and maybe unleash more of the internal memory from the HD towards expansion. You don't need more than a patch really. They MUST do this.

[DerekA]

I'd be interested from people who know something about the hardware involved if there's any real reason why the expansion memory has to be of a specific - expensive - type.

[Bachus]

Youncan also work around this limitation..
And use a laptop/mac or even an ipad to build your own soundbanks..

Big advantage, if ou change instrument/brand you can take your sound library with you..

For me, it would be perfect to have audio over USB..
Which is a huge step forward over analogue audio connections..

[soundphase]

Youncan also work around this limitation..
And use a laptop/mac or even an ipad to build your own soundbanks..

Big advantage, if ou change instrument/brand you can take your sound library with you..

For me, it would be perfect to have audio over USB..
Which is a huge step forward over analogue audio connections..

I don't understand your answer

CMS sounds are fully integrated. They take profit from Genos features like Genos's dsp, equalizers,... power and can be used in live sessions with styles or multipads like any native sounds. It's not easy to do the same with external sounds only accessible through midi connections and protocol.

[soundphase]

I'd be interested from people who know something about the hardware involved if there's any real reason why the expansion memory has to be of a specific - expensive - type.

My opinion is that lifecycle for the Yamaha products is perfectly managed from R&D to retirement. « Genos 1 » features and technical architecture were designed a lot of years ago. During the same time, next Genos generations are defined, designed with component suppliers and manufacturing chains are adapted.

[pjd]

I'd be interested from people who know something about the hardware involved if there's any real reason why the expansion memory has to be of a specific - expensive - type.

Hi Derek --

I don't want to hijack this thread, but here's a short explanation. The expansion memory that holds voice waveforms needs to supply samples to the tone generator chip at a high rate of speed. Yamaha use this architecture to guarantee polyphony as specified. The actual interface and hardware is more complicated than that, but an explanation would take this thread in a whole other direction.

Here are links to two of my blog posts (maybe TMI):

http://sandsoftwaresound.net/swp70-tone-generator/
http://sandsoftwaresound.net/serial-mem-tone-gen/

I've gotten positive feedback about these articles from Yamaha engineers. 

All the best -- pj

[DerekA]

Thanks PJD. So it's not the case that they could use cheaper memory for e.g. T5 - the chips need 80 pins at up to $4.50 per pin.

If I understand your post though, you reckon that the new CPU used in Genos is designed to work with cheaper memory - so maybe in future we will see multi-GB onboard expansion space.

[pjd]

Hi Derek --

Component cost is definitely not the blocker. Larger expansion memory is definitely feasible at very modest cost. If we discuss how or why Yamaha decides on a particular capacity, we will surely ignite unproductive controversy. 

All the best to ya -- pj

[Bachus]

Hi Derek --

Component cost is definitely not the blocker. Larger expansion memory is definitely feasible at very modest cost. If we discuss how or why Yamaha decides on a particular capacity, we will surely ignite unproductive controversy. 

All the best to ya -- pj

Precisely...

- there are certain things, i will probably never understand. This is one of them..
Instead of getting upset about them, i just try to work around them..

[EileenL]

Yamaha packs are now compressed and have been for some time so that you can load all of them and still have some space left. The problem is the third party packs that can not do this. I found when I got my Genos that the voices were so good that I stopped using a lot of pack voices.

[soundphase]

Precisely...

- there are certain things, i will probably never understand. This is one of them..
Instead of getting upset about them, i just try to work around them..

A Genos is a precise combination of dedicated hardware, dedicated real time operating system, dedicated software. A lot of time has passed between the beginning of the technical design, first prototypes and the first sale after assembly lines were updated. I'm quite sure when the design of the Genos started, 2GB of RAM were considered as a big amount of memory and were a limit for associated motherboards.

[elad770]

Yamaha packs are now compressed and have been for some time so that you can load all of them and still have some space left. The problem is the third party packs that can not do this. I found when I got my Genos that the voices were so good that I stopped using a lot of pack voices.

Very Good Point, i wonder if there's a software that can compress them!

I found that most of the data is voices by 3rd party packs

Can we compress ppf files?

[jwyvern]

Quote
"Yamaha packs are now compressed and have been for some time so that you can load all of them and still have some space left. The problem is the third party packs that can not do this."

To provide any saving of space on the dedicated memory (as opposed to just having a smaller ppf pack file which could presumably done by zipping ) the  voice data would have to be stored on  Genos in compressed form which means every time a voice is selected, Genos would either have to expand the data to a  buffer (taking more memory) or continually expand the data in line to provide the correct sound every time notes are pressed.
Is this how it works?

John

[EileenL]

Compression is something Yamaha uses and they hold the equipment that dose this perfectly for them hence third part packs are much larger so you have to be more selective in what you load.

[Bachus]

Compression is something Yamaha uses and they hold the equipment that dose this perfectly for them hence third part packs are much larger so you have to be more selective in what you load.

Data Compression is not a problem, as long as the compression is lossless.

I.e aiff audio files or zip files are lossless
Mp3 for example isn't.

Don't mix up data compression, with the typical dsp "compressor" or the 'master compressor".. which is a much needed tool in mixing...