Playing piano with a Style

[elad770]

This is probably very simple, silly question but does anyone knows if I can play regular Piano Arpeggios (On the left side or another predefined area)

And have the Genos detect the chord I'm playing and change it accordingly. (Of course, while playing a style)?

[EileenL]

Set fingering to Full Keyboard to achieve this.

[mikf]

Or AI full keyboard
Mike

[Bachus]

Or AI full keyboard
Mike

Set fingering to Full Keyboard to achieve this.

I don't think its that easy...
Yes you can use this feature and it will sound okay..
But if you want exact changes, you will have to choose full fingered..

And change your way of playing to allways play a full chord when there is a chordchange
Most written piano music does however not have full chords but often plays arpeggio's based on the chord..

So yes, there is an option to play full piano keyboard
But for the best results one needs to adapt its playstyle to it

[Murat]

I agree with Bachus. It not easy, in fact not possible if a piece needs to be played properly.

For example; Chopin Fantasie Impromptu - If you look at the start, actually the most of the piece; although the right hand is 4/4 time signature the left is 6/8. How would you play this 'properly' with a say 6/8 time signature style? It will sound a bit ugly to an expert ear.

[panos]

Probably you cannot use a normal style with a tempo when the piece has variable tempos in it unless you change radically the original piece?

I have never played this composition of course (it is too hard and toooo fast  )
but how could it be a track to have 2 different rhythms at the same time?
I am talking about what we are hearing and how we understand the rhythm
and not what the performer might see at the sheetmusic.

I have never used a freeplay style also.
Cannot the bars rearranged or something based on the rhythm you choose?
I feel like clapping at every beat and not at a compound rhythm when he starts to play the fast melody at the beginning.
Just curious....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75x6DncZDgI

[EileenL]

elad is asking if can have the style follow him if playing piano style with left hand and the answer is yes by selecting the right fingering. He has not mentioned playing classical pieces that you would never use a style with.
  Why complicate things.

[Murat]

I gave Chopin's piece as an example, it is surely too difficult for many to play; with or without a style. But the point is, unless you are playing something really basic, it is not possible to play the piano and expect the keyboard to pick up the chords. This might be open to a debate depending on the expertise of each keyboard player. One piece could be too complicated for one player whereas the same piece could be very simple for another player.

[mikf]

The arranger keyboard is a piece of technology not magic - if you want it to interpret an accompaniment you have to give it something to work on ie decent chord progression information. Using a standard piano score especially a classical score, and just switching on a style seldom works well because there is too many single notes. Arpeggio playing in the LH might also be hit and miss because the keyboard sees one note at a time.
What works well is jazz or cocktail style piano playing, which already relies heavily on chording across both hands. I play full keyboard piano all the time on the arranger with backing and it works great. I mostly use AI full keyboard setting. But I am an experienced player who uses a lot of big spread chords. The keyboard will not always follow exactly when I use quick changes or altered or extended chords, but it seldom matters because I am playing all those notes anyway. As long as the bass line and overall accompaniment sounds good, it works perfectly.
Mike

[elad770]

Ok, where do i start? LOL

The link provided above, is this Chopin Fantasie Impromptu?

I copy paste his name because it will take me 5min to write his name correctly. How long do you think it will take me to learn one of his masterpieces? LOL

Eileen was reading me correctly. I was looking for that feature and will try it tonight. I was thinking more "Hello" (Lionel Richie) Than Chopin, but maybe they are cousins?

I only started playing piano but nothing complex. I just like to arpeggio chords as i sing a quiet version of songs. For instance, i love taking Acappella version (Voice Only)
of a song and accompany the singer with piano. I was hoping to add a style to this performance but to keep playing piano as the style playing in the background with of course the ability of the Genos to chance the chords as i play Piano. No tempo changes or other complicated stuff. By the way, the minute I will play like the video above I'm throwing my Genos. LOL

[willem7397]

I have tried this also with several piano pieces but it doesn't work well. Like mentioned above by Bachus you have to start each measure which has a chord change with the full chord instead of the first note of the arpeggio sequence or you play a full chord with your right hand.
It's best to create first a midi of the song you want to play by recording the style and the chords and use this to play along.

[elad770]

I tried playing as suggested above and it worked
Perfectly.
I think maybe the Genos can't handle certain complexities in melody but its light years away from my capabilities
Thank you so much

[Lee Batchelor]

Elad770, your best bet is to record your song to an audio file right on the Genos, and then play it back using the full keyboard as a piano. The only down side is, when you want to keep going. You would need to re-start the song or place makers in the audio track so that you create a loop of a certain section (bridge, chorus, etc...). I've never done this, but I understand it's possible.

[Bachus]

Elad770, your best bet is to record your song to an audio file right on the Genos, and then play it back using the full keyboard as a piano. The only down side is, when you want to keep going. You would need to re-start the song or place makers in the audio track so that you create a loop of a certain section (bridge, chorus, etc...). I've never done this, but I understand it's possible.

Or just record a single chord track in the sequencer and use that track as input for your keyboard chord detecion....

Or record a full midi file..  play piano on top of it.. and use multipads to add some details..

Personally however, i also like simplicity.. just use drums and piano.. play lefthand bass..

[SnowThief]

I just wanted to mention that pedals are also an option.

[soundphase]

AI Full keyboard mode with "the entertainer" (Scott Joplin) original score gives perfect results.

Soundphase.

[Fred Smith]

But the point is, unless you are playing something really basic, it is not possible to play the piano and expect the keyboard to pick up the chords.

Why not?

It's certainly possible to select a Fingering mode that the vast majority of keyboard players would be perfectly happy with.

Cheers,
Fred

[panos]

Here is "The Entertainer" with "AI full keyboard" chord fingering from Soundphase.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEWMoRzLF1o

I don't know if all chords are detected by the Tyros 100% correctly and "by the book"
but I am 100% sure that I really like what I hear

[Bachus]

Why not?

It's certainly possible to select a Fingering mode that the vast majority of keyboard players would be perfectly happy with.

Cheers,
Fred

Why not?

Because when you don't play full chords but arpeggio's only with a walking bass, the chords jump all over on the ai setting, while they don't change at all in the other normal full keyboard setting..


To get the full keyboard styles walking you need to addapt your playing style..
If you do so, it suddenly becomes a parfect tool of its own..

[JanCK]

Coming from a pianist's perspective, I'm having the same experience that Bacchus describes.  It seems like if you really want to comp like a pianist in the left hand, and solo in the right, you really have to adjust the way you play LH chords. You need to feed Genos chord info, which usually means voicing the chord differently than you would like to.  Forget about rootless chord voicing, because they don't really work.  Using extended and altered chords seems limited, too... but hopefully I'm wrong and just haven't figured it out. I've been exploring different fingering settings and some songs are more successful than others.  Seems like recording your own tracks, using MIDI or mp3's might be the way to go.

Bachus wrote:  "Or just record a single chord track in the sequencer and use that track as input for your keyboard chord detecion.... "  Bachus, would you please describe this method for new Genos players like me?  It would be great to learn how to feed Genos chord information ahead of time so I wouldn't have to think about it while playing piano.

Jana

[Bachus]

Bachus wrote:  "Or just record a single chord track in the sequencer and use that track as input for your keyboard chord detecion.... "  Bachus, would you please describe this method for new Genos players like me?  It would be great to learn how to feed Genos chord information ahead of time so I wouldn't have to think about it while playing piano.

Jana

I am new to Genos to
i haven't found a way to do it directly in the genos..
but i guess when route the midi trough the Ipad
Record the chords on song track 1 (or whatever you want)
Send it the ipad (midi settings)

and then make the ipad send it back on the channel that detects chords, it should work just fine.
Haven't tried it myself yet, but it should work on the Genos..

If someone knows however how to do this witouth routing, i would love to hear..

[guitpic1]

I've tried every way I've read here to play piano over styles.  At some point, the keyboard needs direction to change a chord in the style, regardless of fingering mode.

The best luck I've had is recording a midi file and playing along with that.

[mikf]

This is an interesting discussion, but have to say I have never experienced all the problems that others seem to have playing full piano keyboard with arranger accompaniment. Both AI full keyboard and full keyboard. For me the difference is small.

Maybe I am just lucky that my playing style fits, maybe I am less hard to please, but I do it every day with no problem and never really modify my playing style at all from  playing solo piano or playing with a band. Well that may not be completely true, I probably subconsciously make some adjustments on the fly based on what I am hearing, but then I do that when playing with other musicians or by myself anyway.

What I don't do is get concerned about what the arranger is technically interpreting ie the name it is giving to the chords I am forming over both hands. I only listen to the overall sound.
And yes you can use 'backing tracks', in fact you don't even need an arranger to do that. But to some extent that takes away some of the point of an arranger where one of the main assets is the ability to sit down, pick a style and just play live with accompaniment. 
I don't make recordings of my playing very often, but I wanted to post an example and found this old recording from several years ago made with my old 3k.  Its not great, but I can assure you that its not something I spent time on getting perfect, just a song in my head I sat down and played like I do almost every day in my normal style with no change to how I would play it on solo piano. In fact I changed to  CVP because I was playing this way most of the time, and now I get a bit better piano sound and feel from the CVP. I might get around to making a recording or two on that some time, so people can hear the piano sounds, and have sat down several times with that intention. But every time I sit down at the instrument, I start playing, and before I know it, have been there for a while and ran out of time!

When I first got the arranger I used to mess around with style editing, voice editing and all sorts, but now I just think of a song, pick a style and tempo, then play. Some people get a lot of fun from playing around with the technology and everything it can do, some people just want to sit and play with minimum preparation. I am firmly in the latter camp nowadays, and about the most I do in modifying styes is to cut out superfluous parts and keep them simple. And it works well for me.   
This recording its not studio quality or a great performance but it works well enough for my own enjoyment, and it demonstrates how the arranger (3K) does OK at following.  I certainly don't notice it missing or playing lots of obviously wrong chords. By and large it is doing what I want it to do. I used to love playing with other musicians, and now I really hardly get a chance to do that, and the arranger is the substitute. Truthfully, I have played with many musicians who were not as solid as the arranger. 
Sorry, for the very long post, but I find this area of discussion interesting.
https://app.box.com/s/3uyg0i1qnu3drt96uqyvcm08rm7ioe1o
Mike

[panos]

Nice performance Mike! 
I never tried those fingering modes so I guess people are having trouble with the style when the left hand is playing just single notes.

Lets say in a 4 beats bar, they play with left hand A-C-E-A x 4 times instead of just playing the Am chord once as we normally do on the keyboard.

I just tried that and seemed to worked ok with the AI full keyboard didn't worked at all with the full keyboard mode. 
I left the split point to the preset F# position.
Maybe in full keyboard the split poit must be moved to the far right C key?

I wonder how the style would sound to a more advanced fingering and if there are things that can be changed in the parts of the style to  sound more appropriate to those fingering modes.
(you know the parameters tab of the style creator)

I think it is time for me to learn a simple piece from classical music and play it with the piano way to test the results with the styles.
If my left hand decides to corporate with that of course.hahaha)

[mikf]

Split doesn't matter in full keyboard modes, it is deactivated.
And what you are playing in the rh also matters. Even the single melody note feeds into the chord information in full keyboard modes. Many piano players automatically play multiple notes in the RH. Even if not full chords, or on every note, this is part of the total chord information read by the keyboard accompaniment in thes modes.
Mike

[Lee Batchelor]

Wow, Mike! This is a big help. Great playing by the way !

Sounds like playing basic chords on the left and using more single notes on the right is the key to getting this to work. I too have the desire to use full piano playing on top of a style, but I tend to use a lot of block chords when playing with a live band. Sounds like I can't apply that idea when using the Genos as a full piano+arranger - unless the right hand chords are based on the left hand chord.

[mikf]

Lee
In fact I am more inclined to use very open LH chords, maybe even just a couple or notes or even a doubled up bass, and add chord notes in my right. I add those notes frequently, maybe once or more per bar, but not all the time. And they are often the 6ths, 9ths, flattened 9ths, flattened 5ths, etc not just simple triads. Anything to add 'color' to the sound. Hard to describe in words but easy to understand if you are sitting with me. 
Mike

[JanCK]

Mike, nice playing, thanks.  Let me ask, how do you, and other forum players, handle left hand chord comping when your right hand is playing a single-note instrument, like a sax?  This is one of the areas where I'm having trouble with LH comping like a pianist, when I want to use rootless chords, or various chord voicings that Genos is misinterpreting...the chords that one might use when playing with actual people.  In other words, I'm wanting to play more than, say, the root and 7th of the chord in the left hand.  I realize Genos is a machine, so compromise is required.  I'm just trying to find what that compromise is, and still be happy with the results.

From what I can tell at this point, my answer may be to learn how to use MIDI or mp3s recordings (which I have no experience with).  Would others agree, or is there something else I just haven't discovered yet?

[mikf]

When I am playing a single note instrument I switch to fingered on bass mode and play the way most arranger players would play - chords in the LH and lead in the right with a split point. I usually use a piano or electric piano voice for the LH in this mode, although you can be silent as long as accompaniment is on and you drive the chord.
I keep a set up registration bank permanently in place. The first button in this bank selects my normal AI full keyboard piano mode, and the second selects fingered on bass mode. I already have the split point set at b3. This way I can toggle between modes while playing live so for example I can play full keyboard piano then switch to a sax lead break on the fly. The remaining buttons in this registration have a number of favorite voices. Although the keyboard has hundreds of voices on board, many players use a relatively small number regularly, and I like to keep these on hand for quick selection. I never use OTS because that changes voices unexpectedly when you change style part. I don't like surprises when playing. The way I have my keyboard set up I seldom need to use registrations for playing so I can keep this set up registration available all the time. Along with my three normal pedal settings which have style tempo tap in and stop/start along with piano sustain, all I need to do to play almost anything is select a style, tap my foot and off I go. I have my two fingering modes and a selection of voices to hand all the time. 
As far as how you voice the chord when playing with a split point, I am afraid that the common jazz piano method of open rootless LH chords voicing is not going to work too well. I usually play the full 4 finger chord in the LH when playing this way, although that is not what I do when playing full keyboard. I liken this more to solo piano/ cocktail bar playing style than jazz piano with a bass player. I like to control my bass line when playing without a bass player, so I do play inversions and use fingered on bass for that reason, but not quite the same thing that you mean with open rootless voicing. I never had much problem adjusting to the arranger because I played a lot of that style of piano in the past.
There is a second AI option ( not AI full keyboard) which uses melody line, chord played and chord progression to work out the correct chord. This might be worth playing with, but I doubt it will satisfy you. Most experienced piano players like the keyboard to reproduce exactly what they play, rather than hope it will work it out for itself.
Cheers 'Mike

[JanCK]

Thanks, Mike, that was a helpful answer.  Thanks for being so thorough in describing how you play and set up your keyboard.  It's so interesting to discover how different people use the Genos.  So many possibilities!!!  Your answer also confirms that to achieve my goal I need to explore MIDI and mp3 playing for several of my songs. Fortunately, many of the songs I play are satisfactory using AI full keyboard fingering.  So far, I have not used my left hand strictly as a way to feed chord information to Genos.  Which, of course, would be a normal way to play Genos!  This is my first time owning and using an arranger keyboard.