Live Looping

[jdup]

I would like to inquire if anyone has experience with live looping during a song or performance? I have a PSR-S770, and I think it would require either a looping pedal or a software app, such as Garage Band.

Thanks, in advance.

Jim Duprey

[Ed B]

Hi
The keyboard is not a looper. The looper is a multi-track audio recorder. You do not have that audio capability. You can build  up midi tracks by multi tracking but it is not something I would want to do live as entertainment.
Some have turned off a style and built it up track by track introducing the drummer then the bass and so on for other voices in the style and then into playing a song using the style. But to my knowledge no one is doing anything analogous to a looper live.. To me looping is a different approach. With the keyboard you've got a band or an orchestra at your finger tips or if you want to thin a style a trio.  Perhaps you can expand on what you want to achieve and someone can come up with some ideas on how you might achieve it
Happy New Year
Ed B

[Joe H]

I think Ed has given a pretty good assessment.  Turning style Parts On and Off and also Multi Pads On / Off is as close as we can get to a live looper.

Joe H

[jdup]

Thank you both Ed and Joe for your helpful thoughts. You are both on target with my findings. (And Joe, your treatise on Multi-Pads is incredible.)

My goal was to be able to solo back over my own playing -- in a live, performance environment. I bought (and subsequently returned) an Electro Harmonix 720 looper pedal. After 6 weeks of testing, I found that it worked exactly as stated. However, it was very difficult to use with an arranger keyboard. You had to utilize it in 1 of 2 ways.

If you began a song WITHOUT ANY style, you could then loop back and solo over that recording WITHOUT ANY style. The reason you could not add a style is that your timing would never be precisely the same, so the use of a style could really throw you off.

Secondly, if you began WITH a style, your loop would record everything. So in order to solo, you would need to strip off the style before playing back and soloing over the loop. Otherwise, you would have 2 styles and rhythms going at once. Then, you need to turn back on the style in order to finish.

I greatly appreciate and respect your thoughts. And I am open to any other thoughts you might have. I believe the expensive Yamaha's, like the Motif, are starting to allow Looping. But it must involve a separation, or splitting, of the sounds. There might also be a software solution.

Happy New Year to all.

[Joe H]

Thank you both Ed and Joe for your helpful thoughts. You are both on target with my findings. (And Joe, your treatise on Multi-Pads is incredible.)

Thanks. It took a lot to write that article. 

So you see the best way is to use REGISTRATIONS.  That is how you can automate (Sync Start) turning the style parts and Multi Pads On/Off.

Joe H

[Tyros5Mad]

You can also use a DAW such as Cakewalk by Bandlab (totally free now) to create the loops and then play them back to your keyboard and do whatever you want to do in addition.

Cakewalk is fantastic. It used to be Sonar Platinum and Bandlab has just given it away for free. It is complicated and I am still learning how to use it but the learning curve will be worth it I think.

Regards, Richard

[Enildo]

Hello Jim!

Yes, it is already possible to create real loops and put to play on the keyboard live.
Watch this video of "real" guitar loops, played in real time and with chord progression.
https://youtu.be/gPl86SXgjPU?t=314

Hug

[Enildo]

Hello Jim!

Yes, it is already possible to create real loops and put to play on the keyboard live.
Watch this video of "real" guitar loops, played in real time and with chord progression.
https://youtu.be/gPl86SXgjPU?t=314

Hug

It is even possible to make tempo changes and add dissonates chords (7M, 9, 4, etc).

[mart1n]

Hi !

I really share your needs Jim ! I think it would be great to find a way to find a way to do that... I don't really like the way of using the styles or registrations for that purpose. Of course it does the job ! But for me, it's not playing live ! You start only one track then add a second one by pressing one button, and so on. Ok but you are not really playing live. It would be very great for soloing indeed but also in other ways... What I would love for example is to start a (minimal) style, then playing one phrase live and be able to loop it, and then a second one, etc, etc... I have a few songs in mind which wound sound great this way.... If anyone as ideas...
Enildo, thanks but I don't see where the looping is really in the video, or something is missing me...

Regards,

[Joe H]

... It would be very great for soloing indeed but also in other ways... What I would love for example is to start a (minimal) style, then playing one phrase live and be able to loop it, and then a second one, etc, etc... I have a few songs in mind which wound sound great this way.... If anyone as ideas...
Regards,

Wishful thinking is not going to make it happen.  As Ed indicated, the arranger is not a looper. If you want a looper then that's what you will need to buy.  Roland makes one I believe.

Joe H

[Tyros5Mad]

DAW's make excellent looping tools. Audacity (free) can do audio loops. Cakewalk by Bandlab (also free) can do midi loops and audio loops.

You can download free loops from the internet.

Regards, Richard

[Joe H]

... You can download free loops from the internet...

But the whole concept of looping is to create your own loops real-time. Years ago I watched/listen to a flute/sax player and a guitar player perform with a looper. It was very interesting music that they played.

Joe H

[pjd]

DAW's make excellent looping tools. Audacity (free) can do audio loops. Cakewalk by Bandlab (also free) can do midi loops and audio loops.

Hi Richard --

WRT DAW, do you mean recording a few bars and then overdubbing while the initial few bars are playing? Otherwise, as Joe observed, the discussion is moving away from live looping.

The MAIN section of a style is essentially a loop. If you're not looking for real-time live looping and off-line editing is OK, then maybe try style creation?

All the best -- pj

[Tyros5Mad]

Hi Richard --

WRT DAW, do you mean recording a few bars and then overdubbing while the initial few bars are playing? Otherwise, as Joe observed, the discussion is moving away from live looping.

The MAIN section of a style is essentially a loop. If you're not looking for real-time live looping and off-line editing is OK, then maybe try style creation?

All the best -- pj

I do mean live looping, although I mentioned that you can download free loops as well.

Take a look at this video to see what I am talking about. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8qf227tN8c

Regards, Rich

[Joe H]

I guess it depends on what the meaning of IS is.  The live looper is a hardware box where you can record unique short phrases or chord progressions that are your own.  A software DAW like in the video accomplishes the same thing as our style Parts / loops and Multi Pads.

Joe H

[mart1n]

Hi,

Jdup (or someone else), did you find any solution about it please ? Still looking for a DAWless way to play then loop phrases and overdub. I'm very surprise there's no easy ways to do this...

Mart1n

[Joe H]

As noted above... Styles and Multi Pads are recorded loops.  Then there is the arpeggiator which you can over-dub with the style and Multi Pads.

This is all MIDI loops... not audio loops. The arranger keyboard is primarily a MIDI machine.

My article explains how to temporarily select different Multi Pads on-the-fly, which simulates a looper.  It's the closest you can get with an arranger.

BTW... You can play Multi Pads with just drums and bass if you turn all the other styles parts Off and then improvise a melody line with your right-hand playing.

Joe H

[Rick D.]

Hi Guys,

I think this is what Jim would like to do live from his keyboard.
Johnny A is one of the best live loopers on guitar I know. Check him out here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aj9DxyEJeG8
This I think would be very difficult on a keyboard.

Rick D.

[mart1n]

Thanks for your answers. Sorry Joe, but even if I know how styles and multi pads are built (and the aim of that), there are not what I am expecting (and so Jim I think). In my thoughts, I would be abe to launch a style (and perhaps multi pads), then play a phrase other with a sound (and so a channel) and then loops only this phrase (channel) would loop, and I could play other things. And by extension, we could overdub 1, 2, 3 (midi) phrases like this. I really can't figure why it's impossible to do this live in 2020 because indeed sounds are on separated channels... And even though I'm expecting a DAWless solution, I wouldn't be against a light app (android for example) one...

[Joe H]

Thanks for your answers. Sorry Joe, but even if I know how styles and multi pads are built (and the aim of that), there are not what I am expecting (and so Jim I think). In my thoughts, I would be abe to launch a style (and perhaps multi pads), then play a phrase other with a sound (and so a channel) and then loops only this phrase (channel) would loop, and I could play other things. And by extension, we could overdub 1, 2, 3 (midi) phrases like this. I really can't figure why it's impossible to do this live in 2020 because indeed sounds are on separated channels... And even though I'm expecting a DAWless solution, I wouldn't be against a light app (android for example) one...

If you took the time to learn you would find that I am correct. You can create your own Multi Pads if you like.  You can do it with a DAW, but... go buy a looper. You can record audio phrases with your keyboard just the same as Johnny A does with his guitar. Maybe one day there will be a looper keyboard, but to my knowledge it doesn't exist right now.

Joe H

[mart1n]

If you took the time to learn you would find that I am correct. You can create your own Multi Pads if you like.  You can do it with a DAW, but...

Joe, I had never said the opposite since I know this... We don't want only to create loop, we want to make them live, that's really the difference ... And to say "go buy a looper" isn't the anwer you know it, and it doesn't justify why a way to live loops phrases doesn't exist...

[Ed B]

Martin
Perhaps you can. Why not use "style creator" Just like Bert does in this demo in creating a new style. You don't need to quantize if your timing is good enough

https://youtu.be/qKPaMVjJqqQ?t=195

Sure resembles live looping..you would have to do it using midi and could not use voice but maybe its good enough.
Regards
Ed B

[mart1n]

Thanks Ed. I gave a try this week-end and there's the idea but unfortunately it can't really works. Other than the quantize aspect, when you change the channel you record (and so you play...), the loops restart to the beginning. So, it is really really difficult (even impossible) to change/chosse the channel exactly at the beginning of the loop to keep a continuous loop and make the job. It's really sad because the idea is here and I think it is not so far from what is expected....

[panos]

Hi martin,
the keyboard can record while you are playing but it cannot play play back a previous recorded track without stopping the recording function first (either it is midi or audio recording).

The closest I can think of is the chord looper that the SX900 and Genos have to keep your both hands free on the fly for playiong riffs and use easier the pitch bend wheel.

Otherwise on the keyboard we are always programming what the keyboard will play while we are pushing a button(A style part,an audio pad,a midi pad,a midi file) and for more complex stuff we are using registrations.

So for what the guitarist Jhonny A is playing in the video below that Rick has posted.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aj9DxyEJeG8

00:00-00:30 is our reg 1.Just our left hand is playing the chords on a midi style part or guitar midi pad.

00:31.-00:57 reg 2 our left hand continues to play the chords and uses also the pitch bend wheel for the chords we play with our right hand.

01:33-02:10 reg 3 the style part is playing both the previous 2 guitar sounds that follow our left hand's chords and the right hand is playing the riff.The left hand also controls the pitch bend were is needed.

02:11-02.16 reg 4 there is no sound for the style part,the right hand continues to play the riff and the left hand uses the pitch bend wheel.

02.17- 03.21 reg 5 same as reg 3

03:22-04:15 reg 6 we change the voices for the right hand electric guitars(we can also use a harmony option and definitely dsp effects) .The left hand as always is playing the chords and the pitch bend.

04:16-04:29 reg 7 ending, same as reg 4.

I hope that helps for making an "arrangement" with a keyboard.

[Joe H]

mart1n,

I don't think you understand how the arranger works. In my article (and download) there is a "Phrase Library". With the "Phrases" you can mix and match phrases on-the-fly. There is a limit on how long the phrases can be.  As I stated above it is the closest thing to emulating a Looper. The Pads are prerecorded loops (that you can turn On and Off or switch real-time) instead of "live" loops, and the results are close to the same as a looper, only its MIDI instead of audio.

Joe H

[mikf]

... it doesn't justify why a way to live loops phrases doesn't exist...

What justifies it is that Yamaha obviously don't consider the additional development and manufacturing cost would return in either additional keyboard sales or ability to achieve higher sales price. And they are probably right in this case.
Its amazing how often these very esoteric things come up, where people think that its so simple and cheap to add - its only software! after all!!... that Yamaha should just do it. But big corporations can't afford to think like that, they look carefully at the market value, cost and competitive necessity before anyone gets to do any additional development. I ran a huge technical department for a major company for many years and can assure you that great development ideas happen internally all the time, and the originators in Yamaha or any other company are usually passionate and persuasive. But all good companies have a very stringent process before it 'passes the smell test', and only a very small percentage get approved. Companies that go chasing every good idea usually fail.
Mike

[mart1n]

Hi,

Joe, yes I DO understand how the arranger works... You're right, the pads are quite doing what it could be but it is prerecorded loops and it's really a difference... It's really sad they can't be recorded and then continuously played live. Yes, that would be the job

Mikf, I think you could be right talking about manufacturing cost and process, etc... But sometimes, (I also work on big projects, process and so...) it really avoids oppotunities to be so inflexible on studying things, or to basically say it's useless...

Little precision, I haven't said that this feature should be on the keyboard (but it would great) and could be part of an external device/solution

Mart1n