GENOS & CUBASE SETUP

[vadesriux]

You must record each MIDI track at a time, begining with the Style track.

Not a multi track setup. Noneless it took me 2 days to figure this out.

Inside GENOS: Go to MIDI tab and use the photos attached to setup.

Inside CUBASE: follow the photos attached.

With this setup, recording each track at a time, you wont get doubled midi notes.

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[Lee Batchelor]

Most helpful, Eduardo!

Recording the Genos in Cubase has always been a task shrouded in mystery and unknowns. It's as if the Yamaha demons don't want us to figure it out. That way, we must also buy a Montage, where Yamaha has plenty of instructions about recording!

Many thanks. I'll give it a try!

One other thing...After the Style is recorded into Cubase, can we use the part dissolve to do the fine tuning? I've always found the Yamaha Revo Kick drum to be very loud. It's as though a 500 pound man was playing it with full force. Toward that end, all my registrations have the Kick (and Toms) routed to Sub 1-->Mixer channel. That way I have better live control.

[vadesriux]

Sure you can Lee! I have tried and it works very well dissolving the STYLE in 8 new MIDI tracks. And yes, once dissolved, you will have the chance to raise / lower the volume of each part of the STYLE you've recorded. However remember one thing:

once you have set all 8 track volumes (and pans) right, and since you will have 8 MIDI tracks on screen, record everything to an AUDIO track (and delete the 8 MIDI tracks + the original MIDI STYLE track still on screen), before continuing to record the Right 1 hand. Otherwise, if you try to record the Right 1 hand with all 8 + 1 MIDI tracks still on screen you will get.... a BIG sound mess 

[Lee Batchelor]

Thanks, Eduardo! I've always wondered how that was done. I know you must eventually record all MIDI tracks to audio, after you've completed all modifications to the MIDI tracks. I usually keep the MIDI tracks muted and hidden. That way if I screw something up, they're still available for re-use. Thanks again!

- Lee

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi Eduado
Great explanation for building a song In Cubase
I usually Play the whole song Into quick record on the Genos sequencer and put the midi file Into Cubase to do minor edits like note lengths, volumes and mistakes.
The only trouble with this way Is that all your lead sounds are on track one with program changes along the way.
When I edit all Is well until I stop and start anywhere In the song. The sound can change, the volume of the Gm drums can go up In volume on their own and all sorts.
I do work around them and just solo the main track until right and all knits together.
I must admit that I heard about desolve a couple of days ago and If that works with Genos Styles, especially the drum parts, that would be a bonus.
I will try your way and see what happens.
I do not know about you, but I had all midi tracks of a song done ready to go and I tried bouncing them down to one track and that was a disaster.
In the end I recorded one track at a time and that worked, so a five minute song with eight tracks would take forty minutes to get all separate wave files.
It does not matter to me how I record a song now as long as I can sit down and play it with all the bells and whistles In the registrations which can be finalized after a recording.
One thing that has opened my eyes Is getting top quality monitors and top headhones to edit with but not mix with. The Focal Alpha 50s that I have just purchased and run In are really clear and precise. Now I will see how the mixing comes on as well. "It's all a worry "!!!

Big thanks for showing us your methods
It Is easier with VST though!!!


All the best
John

[vadesriux]

You are right John. It is easier with VST. But with VSTs you dont get the awesome and inspiring accompaniment with bass, drums and phrases you get on a keyboard like this. So I put Right 3 voice in Local control Off and record all my VSTs with Right 3 knob

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi Eduado
The Genos Is certainly Inspiring piece of equipment and has lots of nice nuances.
I spend too much time In the man cave .
I must get out more often!!!


All the best
John

[vadesriux]

Okay now it is I who needs help 

Cubase is not recording the effects of a Genos sound.

For example, when recording a MIDI track using a Genos factory sound which already has Reverb + Delay, Cubase records the Reverb with no problem but the Delay is missing....

Any help ?

[Depo1964]

The Genos/DAW, in my case, Cubase interface will be the next area I attempt to learn more about regarding Genos capabilities.
Wanted to see how many posts in the 10 Genos Forums mention DAW and/or Cubase...... 75 & 67 respectively.
I wonder how many posts it would take to warrant a separate forum relating to Genos/DAW interface?

[Lee Batchelor]

The Genos/DAW, in my case, Cubase interface will be the next area I attempt to learn more about regarding Genos capabilities.
Wanted to see how many posts in the 10 Genos Forums mention DAW and/or Cubase...... 75 & 67 respectively.
I wonder how many posts it would take to warrant a separate forum relating to Genos/DAW interface?

First, Yamaha has to acknowledge that the arranger keyboard has evolved WAY past the days of the simple PSR models and into a full-blown professional keyboard, with which a lot of people want to record their performances. Only then, will Yamaha offer up a decent DAW where the friendly exchange of ideas can occur.

Cubase is a wonderful program, but let's not kid ourselves - it's way too complex and full of trap doors for regular recording with the Genos by the ordinary player. You must be a software/sound engineer to get those two to talk nice. It takes very few "tech glitches and annoyances" to kill inspiration. The time to set up and master the Cubase/Genos mix is inversely proportional to the time it takes to create beautiful recordings.

Cubase+Genos is a very unhappy marriage at the moment, Yamaha needs to step up to the plate and offer a dedicated Genos DAW in both PC and Mac platforms. End of story!

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

hi
It would be nice as I said earlier to have a dedicated section for Genos and Cubase and maybe Yamaha help
If I make a song In the sequencer on the genos ,then send It to cubase editing is possible.
There are a load of glitches though and you have to go back to the beginingevery time to hear things as they should be.
If you just want to make timing edits ,note lengths,volumes ,velocities or mistakes before turning the lot Into a wave file,It can be done by several workarounds.
Eduado is right in saying that disolve sparates the Style and I found out if you want to disolve just the drum track, that can be done which separates them to different lanes .
Press a little symbol In the drum main track and it hides them.
Bouncing down midi track did not work for me only recording one track at a time to wave to separately edit each wave track before final export to single wave file.
I have not found out yet how to put effects in like Eduado Is having trouble with.
There must be a way to do a load of things ,but Yamaha has not made any videos or even a book would help to master Cubase and the Genos.

Come on Yamaha give us all some help as you do not mind selling us programs over £300.

All the best
john

[Lee Batchelor]

Good points, John. Please let me paraphrase your thoughts:

Yamaha, you have created a monster in the Tyros and now Genos keyboards. All along you have assumed that your primary target audience is the "Sit at home in the living room player." There's no debating that the home player is often as gifted as the pro players, BUT you must stop dragging your feet when it comes to us pro and semi-pro players. We adore the Genos and want to record our efforts, but Cubase (like all other DAWS) is not the correct DAW!!!!!!! The arranger architecture is mostly incompatible with conventional DAW software. PLEASE supply us with a dedicated DAW that doesn't stifle creativity by its mechanics. Aren't you looking for yet another revenue stream?? It's staring you right in the face and yet, you can't even see it! Wake up!!!!!!!!!!

[vadesriux]

Well....

Not so good news after all. The initial excitment turned out to be... not so exciting. Cubase does not record (as far as I am aware of) Genos sounds as they sound when you play them on Genos. Even when you are already using the CUBASE patch list, and select each sound accordingly.

Later, I tried to record a whole song in MIDI MULTI RECORD mode, inside Genos, and all went pretty straightforward. Not at all the control you have in Cubase but for simple songs that is ok.

After I tried to import the resultant MIDI file into a Cubase MIDI track but the sounds are all crossed between each other. Again the effects are all also wrong... So I'm afraid I did not find yet a solution to record Genos into Cubase EXACTLY as when you play only with Genos.

Back to the GENOS / DAW implementation lacking from YAMAHA's side.

Lots of requests for this integration, so YAMAHA please listen...

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi Eduado

Try playing your song Into the Genos sequencer.
Import that into Cubase and edit.
If you hear strange things ,do not worry as when you go back to the start all plays fine again.
Anything playing up I mute those tracks and just edit a track,volume, note lengths, mistakes and general things .
When happy transfer back to Genos and all Is ok and your track Is tightened up.
I desolved just the drum tracks, but will have to look at editing each drum hit or shaping them.
Press a button on the GM track and It hides the disolved lanes.
There are a load of glitches with Genos and Cubase, but have to find workarounds.
I am still learning about what Genos and Cubase does. A long road this one.
I am wondering what would happen If you edited your style In Cubase by disolving etc and putting back Into the Genos and use as backing track.
Play your song and then back to Cubase for finalizing.
Bouncing down Genos tracks goes funny and recording one midi track at a time to wave works.


All the best
John         I get the same with mixing!!

[Depo1964]

Eduado, John & anyone else interested in using Cubase with their Genos.
I think I can safely say that Yamaha clearly needs to make the interface between these two products of theirs much more  User friendly and common.   When I say common I mean, so that User A, B.... Z does not have to make any unique  changes to either the Genos or Cubase that prevents a User from using the Interface, out of the box (as much as possible) ready.

I have successfully been able to record a song using  MIDI Multi Recording on my Genos into Cubase 8.0.40.  It wasn't easy.... after a few trial and error attempts.... but I finally found the settings that allowed me to do it.

These are the settings that I used to successfully record MIDI from the Genos directly into Cubase.
(I'm really interested to see if anyone else also has success by using these settings).
1) Added a MIDI track in Cubase.
2) In the Inspector of the MIDI track, set the Channel selector to ANY
3) set my Input and Output routing to point to my Genos.
4) In Cubase, set my Transport Tempo to the same as the Style tempo from Genos.
5) recorded the song.
6) from the MIDI tab select Dissolve Part (use defaults settings).
7) for clarity I added instrument names to the dissolved channels.
8 ) muted track 1 - as this appears to be all of the instruments recorded to channel 1.
9) played each track separately as there was a need to transpose up 1 octave instruments where on my Genos for that instrument, I selected -1 for the Voice Setting Octave value.
10) went into Genos -->  Menu -->  Menu 2 -->  MIDI --> Receive button and changed Port 2 Ch4 to Left, as I was not hearing what was actually being played on my Genos for the Left (Bass) part.
11) at a later point, I will record each track separately to Audio

But at least, the Interface works.
Attaching some documents and the output audio mixdown track so you can hear exactly what I heard from my headphones on the Genos as I was playing and recording the song.
P.S.  Hope to add a cool alto and tenor horn duet off the main riff of this song later.....
That should be interesting.


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[overover]

Hi folks,

some of you, obviously, are talking about using the MIDI Port 2 to play back recorded MIDI tracks from Cubase to the Genos.

I do NOT recommend that, because by default (MIDI template "All Parts") the received MIDI data on Port 2 are addressed e. g. to the internal Keyboard Parts. On the one hand, this will change the Voices in these Parts unintentionally, and on the other hand, the produced Sounds are NOT the same as if you were using Port 1 (and thus the SONG Parts).

According to my experience, one should always use Port 1 for receiving MIDI data from the DAW (to address the received MIDI data to the SONG Parts).


I recommend to record a Song directly on the Genos, first. Then transfer that MIDI file to the PC (e. g. with an USB stick) and import the file in Cubase.

If you have only ONE TRACK now (which contains all MIDI events of all channels), you have to use the function "Dissolve Parts" first (to have one Track for each MIDI channel).

Then route all Tracks (MIDI channels) to Genos MIDI Port 1.


Best regards,
Chris

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi
If you import a song Into Cubase all the the song Is displayed on separate tracks,not one track
You have to name each track Genos workstaion and the song plays perfectly without doing anything to the transmit and recieve on the Genos.
The trouble is if your track 1 has several program changes from previously recording to midi through registrations you cannot start and stop anywhere on track 1 as starting in the middle say will change the sound and even for me the GM drum track gets twice as loud for some reason
We need to edit without keep going back to the beginning as that corrects everything.
Take Mike bedeseems Mixmaster, you can start and stop anywhere when making adjustments, but that Is limited to events mainly and number editing. It goes to show that programs could be made for the Genos to work without much fuss.
Is there a Genos and Cubase master out there?
This is a great thread because this subject should be thrashed out and Yamaha sit up and take notice as us Home workstation misfits are becoming more aware HUMANS



All the best
John

[jwyvern]

Quoting Chris,
"I recommend to record a Song directly on the Genos, first. Then transfer that MIDI file to the PC (e. g. with an USB stick) and import the file in Cubase.."

I agree, that is the way I used to get songs into Daws, (Sonar or Cubase) . If you try to record a complex mixture of voices and effects directly into the DAW you are constantly in danger of not getting the results you expect. Whereas the onboard sequencer is so quick to Setup (using the panel voices, styles and effects etc) and appears to record all needed set up parameters to play back exactly the sounds you originally played, hence importing the resulting midi file into the DAW gives the same results.
I notice the All Parts template will transmit all song channel data through Port 2 if you let it. So this suggests that the keyboard sequencer's voice and effects set up data could be transmitted and recorded into the DAW? In theory you might set the DAW for recording, (while receiving from port 2), then start the keyboard sequencer (data transmitted). Now start playing (or variations around that procedure).
Maybe this can be made to work without the need to physically import the midi file, although I have not checked it myself as I'm not currently in DAW mode with Genos .
JohnW

[vadesriux]

Many thanks to everyone here, on this topic.

It is most helpful because I found out what I was doing wrong.
Now using Genos MIDI (all) option, and assigning inside Cubase both IN and OUT to Workstation 1, its just a matter of dragging the MIDI file recorded inside Genos to Cubase and all the sounds and effects are there, exactly like when you recorded them in Genos sequencer.

And I found out why (John) if you hit Play (in Cubase) in the middle of a track you loose all the effects / modulation, etc. of that particular sound. See that small upright rectangle in the beggining of each MIDI track? I am almost certain that it is the small MIDI signal that Genos recorded that "teaches" that track the effects / modulation of that sound. If you start playing in the middle part of the track Cubase wont receive that small MIDI signal, which is exactly in the beggining of the track.

Keep coming with your experiences!
And YAMAHA: please LISTEN to all GENOS users here. Help us with real Cubase integration as you did with MONTAGE 2.5 firmware !!

[Joe H]

I agree with all to say we would like to see Steinberg / Yamaha to provide a version of Cubase that integrates ALL arrangers with the DAW.  Cubase has a steep learning curve.  I believe Yamaha can create an easy to use Style Template and Multi Pad Template for Cubase.  People here have been asking for this for at least a dozen years.

Joe H

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi
With all the editing glitches like sounds going funny on you and GM drums go extra loud if  you keep starting and stopping doing edits editing.
Muting is the workaround.
It must be Cubase not picking up all System Exclusive properly
I I had played a song with registration changes, that means all leads sounds are on track One with program changes.
Cubase cannot handle that properly.
I do like to play a song entirely and then do minor edits.

If you build a track, all tracks separately ,you do get better results.


all the best
John

[jwyvern]

John  I cannot understand why Cubase will only allow us to produce 1 track with everything on it. It is counter intuitive. I wonder what the advantages, if any, are supposed to be. I have a feeling that the more expensive Cubase versions might have a Preference setting that let's you choose to start with separate tracks.

Did you find after doing a Dissolve to convert to individual tracks,  were you then able to stop and start for editing without all the settings being mixed up?

JohnW

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

HI John
I just tried the disolve and will look at that later as I am continuing my attempted mixing.
tonight I will have another look at disolving. Just hope I do not disappear.

I mean that my lead is on the top track and all other tracks are separate.
The way I was explaining was doing a song in one go rather than track by track.
The song I done has about 12 tracks even though I was playing the top line
I will try track one disolve and see what happens.


all the best
john

[SeaGtGruff]

John  I cannot understand why Cubase will only allow us to produce 1 track with everything on it. It is counter intuitive. I wonder what the advantages, if any, are supposed to be. I have a feeling that the more expensive Cubase versions might have a Preference setting that let's you choose to start with separate tracks.

I suspect that it's controlled by the type of MIDI file being imported into Cubase.

There are three types of MIDI files-- Type 0, Type 1, and Type 2. The differences between them are with regard to the number of tracks (or "MTrk" chunks) that they contain, as well as whether the tracks are supposed to be played one at a time or all at the same time.

By definition, a Type 0 MIDI file contains one and only one track. Regardless of how many MIDI channels are used within the file, they're all merged into a single track. It might seem odd to do that, but it's actually easier on the MIDI hardware or software, because MIDI data is sequential in nature rather than parallel. Even if two notes are supposed to be played at exactly the same time as each other, their MIDI Note events must occur one after the other. Thus, the events in a Type 0 MIDI file are written and read in the order they should be performed in, which simplifies things for the MIDI hardware or software.

In contrast, a Type 1 MIDI file has two or more tracks which are played "simultaneously"-- except they aren't actually played simultaneously, since by nature MIDI data is sequential. The definition of a Type 1 MIDI file doesn't specify whether each track contains one and only one MIDI channel, so in theory you could have 16 channels split between two tracks, although in general a Type 1 MIDI file will have one channel per track.

And finally, a Type 2 MIDI file has two or more tracks, with each track being a separate sequence or song that's meant to be played by itself, rather than all of the tracks being played "simultaneously."

Yamaha keyboards can play either Type 0 or Type 1 MIDI files, but they always save a MIDI file in the Type 0 format. And when you load the Type 0 MIDI file into Cubase, Cubase keeps all of the MIDI channels together in a single track, just as they are in the file. I assume that if you were to load a Type 1 MIDI file into Cubase, the MIDI channels would be separated into multiple tracks just as they are in the file.

[jwyvern]

Hi Michael thanks for your reply,
My beef was aimed at Cubase because I originally used Cakewalk/ Sonar and always ended up with the "expected" display of all the tracks after importing midi files straight from Tyros. When I decided to try Cubase I was completely thrown by its different ways of doing things to start with, and finding out just how to import files and get the results I wanted delayed the learning process by a further few weeks!
Consequently my enthusiasm for Daws has currently waned, particularly since Cubase would not let me reinstall it due to loss of serial details after a Windows update trashed my PC.
I'm currently optimising use of the Genos song channels not for Daws but to add extra voices and parts for live playing which is fascinating enough for me at present

John

[vadesriux]

Hi John. Can you explain how you do that, for live playing? It seems very interesting. Its all done inside Genos?

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi Eduado

I normally set all my registrations and pads etc up and play a song straight into the Genos sequencer.
There is generally a couple of mistakes here and there and things like note lengths ,volumes and panning may need to be done
I do not switch on my Focusrite 6i6 box for editing as there Is a Yamaha driver for that.
So I copy the Genos midi file to Usb and plug that Into my I7 Computer.

Open up Cubase and Import the midi file and everything will show up on separate tracks.
Track 1 where you play the lead all through the song has program changes along the way obviously because you change registrations whilst playing. Only the tracks you use show up In Cubase as separate tracks except the lead track 1.
The rest comprise of the separate tracks for the style and pads , left hand etc.

I put the Cubase patch In and when you go to each track, you pull the drop down and choose Genos workstation for each track .
After that all tracks will play. All tracks will show up as a piano track as you have to rename them, then add colours to each track if you like.
The window that shows patch names is not right as you may have to search for the right sound, but I do not bother with that as the sounds you use are there anyway.
I would have thought that when you Import a song the right sounds would show up, but they do not. This Is down to Yamaha and Steinburg to sort these things out.
You get the same problem with all daws as they really cater for the Vst side mainly and pros.

I would  like to know whether you can adjust things like EQ and effects from the Genos In cubase, but that is an area I have not explored yet.
You can desolve a drum track to lanes and edit notes, but that seems to be It as there are no properties in lanes. You can collapse them back to the single GM track.
I am not used to that area yet.

You get sound problems from different tracks and the one you are working on, but the way around that is to mute the bad tracks until your work Is done.
Play from the beginning and all is ok. Midi and Cubase is all about workarounds at the moment, but Vst Is straight forward as you build a track one by one

Once you are happy with your song, export back to the Genos and then you could mute what you want to play and the rest as a backing track. That is another thing I have not tried out using right hand and left hand playing to the song track .
After recording a song I then fine tune the registration and just play .
It takes a little time to get your fingers and feet In synco with your hands whilst pressing buttons, but It Is worth It when you conquer that side.

all the Best
John

[SeaGtGruff]

When I decided to try Cubase I was completely thrown by its different ways of doing things to start with, and finding out just how to import files and get the results I wanted delayed the learning process by a further few weeks!

That's what happened with me when I started to use Cubase! In my case I had installed the free trial version to see if I wanted to buy it, and to help someone with a problem.

When I imported a MIDI file and saw everything on one track, I didn't realize that everything was still on separate channels and freaked out.

Then I spent considerable time searching through the program menus, documentation, and internet for how to stop Cubase from doing that, but apparently I wasn't describing the issue with the correct terminology because I couldn't find anything helpful. I even joined the Cubase forums at Steinberg's web site and posted my question there, expressing incredulity that Cubase would do such a thing in the first place.

Eventually I did find someone in a home recording forum who gave me that magic word, "dissolve," which in my opinion sounds counter-intuitive. What do they mean, "dissolve" the track? I'm not trying to make parts of it disintegrate as though I'd dropped them in a vat of acid; I just want to tell Cubase to stop importing all of the MIDI channels into one track!

Even after returning to the Cubase manual now that I knew the magic word to search for, it took no small amount of time for everything to sink in enough for me to finally realize what was going on (all of the channel messages were in one track but were still on separate channels) and why (Cubase was displaying the MIDI data in the Type 0 format because the file I'd imported was a Type 0 MIDI file).

Once the light bulb came on, it all became more or less a non-issue, since as long as the events were still on their separate channels then I didn't care so much whether they were displayed in one track or individual tracks. I mean, it would be great if each channel were on an individual track, but it wasn't essential to me as long as I knew what to do.

I haven't tried to get into any of the scripting capabilities of the various DAWs, but I suspect that it might be possible to create a script that would dissolve a MIDI track into its separate channels. That's not something I want to tackle right now, but one of these days I might give it a try. I'm still at the stage where I struggle to do basic things in Cubase, mainly because I haven't buckled down with it. And it doesn't help that whenever I run into a bump in any given DAW (Cubase, REAPER, SONAR, T7, etc.), I simply go running back to Mixcraft!

EDIT: Actually, I'm pretty sure there are free utilities on the internet that can convert a Type 0 MIDI file into a Type 1 MIDI file, so the simplest solution might be to run such a utility on your MIDI song file after you've saved it on your keyboard, then import the converted file into Cubase. You don't need to convert everything back to Type 0 when you're finished in Cubase, because the keyboard can load a Type 1 MIDI file just fine.

[jwyvern]

Hi John. Can you explain how you do that, for live playing? It seems very interesting. Its all done inside Genos?

Hi Eduardo,
It can be done self contained, (or more comprehensively with v-console at significant cost)  based on taking the midi data generated by the panel voices and routing it, suitably filtered, back into the song channels.
The only hardware required is a short length of midi cable connecting midi out ex Genos to  midi in.
Beyond that I created a simple midi template based on All Parts so that all note data, aftertouch and pitch bend but not program and Control changes will Transmit from the R1,2,3 and left, upper and lower panel  channels. That data will, with midi cable in situ be automatically received by the corresponding 1 to 6 song channels.  I use the song tab of Mixer to set up extra voices, settings and effects, then Save the setups as a "Song". Finding the right procedure to ensure the saves can be done AND that they stick was a pain but all now works.
Having done that I use registrations to call up normal voices, style etc. settings plus the associated extra "Song" voices so once debugged it all happens very smoothly.
Just throwing extra voices into a registration because you can does not necessarily enhance the final result. The extra voices may get lost in the general mix which is not a help, and if you simply increase their level you might find it produces harshness. So I find it is now even more important when creating bigger setups to pay detailed attention to the mix ie. Filter, EQ, Pan etc. and even how the dominance of some voices can change as you move from lower to higher notes. Otherwise from what I have seen so far, the results may not seem as worthwhile as originally hoped for.
So far I have used it for,
Layering 2 different voices set to auto harmony,
Up to 3 layered LH voices
Can now use a LH voice with Yamaha's ensemble.
Can now use a more "proper" miller setup rather than the cut down version limited to 4 voices given in the Ensemble section
Large BigBand setups, eg. Proper Basie type full sax sounds.
Full range of orchestral sounds, also usable for swing orchestras and goes well with the excellent Viennese waltz style.

I continue to experiment

John

[SeaGtGruff]

Bravo, John! This shows that a great deal can be accomplished above and beyond the "officially supported" capabilities and functions by routing the keyboard's MIDI back to itself and investing a good deal of time and effort into experimentation.