Which keyboards support registration / bank selection through MIDI?

[Robert van Weersch]

Dear fellow board users,

I've been using a T5 76 for a few years now, and although it is a great keyboard, the sheer size and weight can sometimes cause transport problems. That's why I'm looking to get a smaller keyboard, to make transportation somewhat easier. I've already got a Korg microArranger, which is a great little keyboard and is by far the smallest available arranger keyboard. Hours of fun, but it doesn't quite fit my requirements for usage in band and choir.

I wonder if there is a smaller (61 key) Yamaha keyboard, which supports selecting registrations / banks through MIDI. As far as I now, the only models supporting this feature are the Tyros 2 to 5, the PSR-S775/975 and the Genos. The latter is not an option (budgets...) and the 775 and 975 still cost some serious money, even the ones which sparsely appear on the second hand markets.

So, what I would like to now: is my assumption correct, or are there more (i.e. cheaper) models to support this? Any help is appreciated
[changed some errors]

[Fred Smith]

As far as I know, your assumption is correct.

Fred

[DerekA]

What about S670? Still very capable, but cheaper than S775.

[SeaGtGruff]

I might be wrong, but I don't think the PSR-S670 has that ability, and neither do the PSR-S770 and PSR-S970-- unless they had it but it was undocumented?

[DerekA]

I might be wrong, but I don't think the PSR-S670 has that ability, and neither do the PSR-S770 and PSR-S970-- unless they had it but it was undocumented?

Very diplomatic Michael ...

It was just a suggestion though. I couldn't find this documented in the Tyros manual so don't know how we'd tell if the S670 supported it, unless someone can try.

(If it is in the T5 / Sx75 manuals where about is it?)

Sorry Robert !

[SeaGtGruff]

Well, as far as "documented" versus "undocumented," Yamaha (and no doubt other keyboard makers) often leave certain features or abilities undocumented, or very sparsely and cryptically documented, usually in line with the cost of an instrument and the perceived or assumed "technical sophistication" of the keyboard's target market.

So it's certainly possible that the PSR-S670 and other PSR-S models before the PSR-S775 and S975 have this particular ability if you know the secret way to access it.

[Robert van Weersch]

Hm, I'm actually considering to visit my music store, packing my iPad, USB stick and cables, and try this on several machines. It appears that it would be the only certain way to really know if it works.

[DerekA]

Robert, how did you discover which SY*** message to send to make the selection? (Just curious).

[Robert van Weersch]

For the T5? The iOS app Songbook+ (from Baum) abstracts the MIDI technicalities for you. But in other tools, you can do this by sending a PC (Program Change) with MSB and LSB values. The MSB is for the bank select, and the LSB selects the registration within this bank. No sy*** needed.

[SeaGtGruff]

I'm thinking maybe the Bank Select MSB is to select the bank number that tells the keyboard you want to select a Registration rather than a Voice, the Bank Select LSB is to select which Registration Bank you want, and the Program Change is to select which Registration you want. But I haven't checked the manuals to see if that's correct.

Normally (when selecting a Voice) the Bank Select MSB selects the overall category: MSB=127 is for Drum Kits, MSB=126 is for additional Drum Kits; MSB=64 is for Sound Effects Kits; and MSB=0 is for Normal Voices (meaning melodic instruments versus kits). There are many additional MSB values used-- as listed in the XG Specifications-- but those are the four that seem to be used most frequently. So if a given arranger or synth lets you select a Registration (arranger) or Performance (synth) by issuing appropriate Bank Select and Program Change messages, the Bank Select MSB is going to be the "all important" value which tells the instrument that you want to select a Registration or Performance rather than a Voice or Kit.

Then the Bank Select LSB selects which Voice Bank you want to access. So if you're selecting a Registration or Performance, the LSB should be the value that tells the instrument which Registration Bank or Performance Bank you want to select from.

And the Program Change should select the specific Voice, Kit, Registration, or Performance from within the bank.

But as I said, I haven't looked in the Data Lists to verify that I've got it right. If I remember correctly from a recent post, the information on which Bank Select value to use was given in the Data List or Reference Manual for one of the earlier Tyros models (the Tyros2?), but then was apparently omitted from the documentation for the subsequent models. I've got all of the Owner's Manuals, Reference Manuals, Data Lists, and other documents archived on a USB flash drive, which I don't have with me at the moment, so I can't go hunting through the documents right now to verify everything.

[Robert van Weersch]

You're right, somehow I recollected this wrong from memory...I think it is something like this:
  Bank no = 128 * MSB + LSB + 1
  Reg No = PC
That seems to be the working algorithm when using Songbook+.

[overover]

Hi folks,

the correct MIDI commands to call up Registations on Tyros 2 - 5 and PSR-S975/775 are:

Bank Select MSB   Bank Select LSB   Registration Bank No.
    (CC 0)           (CC 32)        (at the beginning of
                                     the Reg file name)
      0             0 ... 127            001 ... 128
      1             0 ... 127            129 ... 256
      2             0 ... 127            257 ... 384
      3             0 ... 115            385 ... 500

Program Change 0 ... 7 call up Registration buttons 1 ... 8.

Important:
• The MIDI channel on which these commands are received must be set to the Part "KEYBOARD" (on the "right" MIDI Port!).

• Only the files (Reg banks) in the currently set Registration folder can be called up via these MIDI commands. Since Reg bank files are NOT called up by their FILE NAMES but by their ALPHANUMERICAL ORDER, the files have to be numbered consecutively. (This means, no "gaps" are allowed in the numbering of the Reg bank files.)


Best regards,
Chris


Edit:
Some examples:

Bank Select MSB, value 0
Bank Select LSB, value 0
Program Change, value 0
---> The first Reg bank file in the folder (in alphanumerical order) is called up, and the first Reg button is activated.

Bank Select MSB, value 0
Bank Select LSB, value 1
Program Change, value 2
---> The second Reg bank file in the folder is called up, and the third Reg button is activated.


(Normally, these MIDI commands "MSB + LSB + Program Change" are used to call up a VOICE.)

[Arnak]

Hi,

Very useful information.

What is Reg No=PC, what does PC stand for, please?

Martin

[Robert van Weersch]

PC = Program Change. That's a type of MIDI command.

[SeaGtGruff]

"PC" is the abbreviation for "Program Change," which is the type of MIDI message that selects which "program" (or "voice," in Yamaha-speak) you want to use on a given MIDI channel.

EDIT: Sorry, I didn't mean to repeat you, Robert, but I was typing while you answered.

[Arnak]

Hi,

I should have thought of that!

Thanks, guys.

Martin

[SeaGtGruff]

Don't sweat it! Someone else may have had the same question but was too timid to ask!

[Robert van Weersch]

"PC" is the abbreviation for "Program Change," which is the type of MIDI message that selects which "program" (or "voice," in Yamaha-speak) you want to use on a given MIDI channel.

EDIT: Sorry, I didn't mean to repeat you, Robert, but I was typing while you answered.

Better answered twice, than not at all