Volume on all Styles not normalized

Depo1964 · August 22, 2018, 09:21:46 AM

... and what I mean by normalized is not that they come close to 0dB,
but that they are all uniform in their volumes.
When I'm scrolling through the Styles to find one that's best for a particular song,
as i go from one Style to the next, sometimes I can hardly hear the particular Style at all.
Does anyone else have this problem....
Just another reason I'm thinking of doing a Reset.
Thx.

Dick Rector · August 22, 2018, 03:04:45 PM

You could try to load all your styles in MidiPlayer by our maestro Michael Bedesem and batch normalize them. It is what I always do when downloading styles from other sources or other keyboards. Takes only seconds. At the same time it finds voices that are NOT on your keyboard and replace them with substitutes.
NOT 100% ideal always but it takes a lot of tweaking away.

Have fun.
Dick

EileenL · August 22, 2018, 04:56:22 PM

Have you got the Style dynamics turned on. Try turning it off and see if this makes a difference.

markstyles · August 22, 2018, 05:03:38 PM

I am rather disturbed by that too.. I haven't really checked, but it seems many styles I pull up, extremely low levels (form 0 - 10). most instruments range from 1 - 8. Which is poor for recording Genos to my DAW. I am NOT going to go thru the all the styles and pull them up to a reasonable level.

I record the midi out of each instruments style part, and I use my own 'control' midi file. It has a number off CC events, reset, pitchbend, effects send levels etc. I have to manually enter the MSB/LSB/PRG for each instrument.

Having only a Mac, I don't have access to Michael's and others software.

Depo1964 · August 23, 2018, 10:54:05 AM

Quote from: Dick Rector on August 22, 2018, 03:04:45 PM
You could try to load all your styles in MidiPlayer by our maestro Michael Bedesem and batch normalize them. It is what I always do when downloading styles from other sources or other keyboards. Takes only seconds. At the same time it finds voices that are NOT on your keyboard and replace them with substitutes.
NOT 100% ideal always but it takes a lot of tweaking away.

Have fun.
Dick

According to the PSRtutorial Midiplayer webpage, the software only support Tyros 1 thru 4.... nothing about supporting Genos...
and that webpage was updated on March 25, 2018.
Just sent an email off to Michael to see if 1) MidiPlayer supports Genos and 2) if he thinks it will help with my problem.
thx.

Depo1964 · August 23, 2018, 10:55:48 AM

Quote from: EileenL on August 22, 2018, 04:56:22 PM
Have you got the Style dynamics turned on. Try turning it off and see if this makes a difference.

Hi Eileen,
Style dynamics was turned off.... tried all of the other options with no difference to the output....
but thanks for the reply.

Depo1964 · August 23, 2018, 11:03:06 AM

To add a few examples of the problem I am having....

if I start with the first Pop style:
Sky Pop - the sound is hardly heard
KissDancePop - sounds fine
BoyBandPop - the sound is hardly heard
CinematicPop - sounds fine
BritishDancePop - sounds tine

Does everyone else have the same issue?

MBedesem · August 23, 2018, 01:26:27 PM

MIxMaster, unlike MidiPlayer, supports volume scaling of styles/midi/pads for all Yamaha 900-Tyros-Genos.

See screen Multi Process sample below for scaling many styles or just one.

These screens are opened by the MultiMrocess button in the toolbar.

Regards,

Michael

[attachment deleted by admin]

Depo1964 · August 23, 2018, 02:14:19 PM

Thanks Michael,
It appears that I will have to research how to get the Styles from my Genos onto my PC for using your software
and then loading back onto the Genos.
I hope there is some documentation on how to do this somewhere.
ciao, Dan

Tankdave · August 23, 2018, 04:21:52 PM

So do I as I need to have a play with this leveling SW too, some of my "styles2psr" styles are extremely loud when compared to the onboard ones. I'm sure I have some very quiet ones too that need a boost

Lee Batchelor · August 24, 2018, 08:03:54 AM

You can copy all system styles to a USB drive, modify them in Mike's program, but can you overwrite the old system files? Probably not. How would you achieve your goal?? I must be missing something here

.

EileenL · August 24, 2018, 09:07:13 AM

I usually adjust up the style volumes to my liking and then save as USER Styles. I make a folder called Adjusted styles and save to this. Then I work from this file all the time. The other way is to adjust and then save to registration bank.

panos · August 24, 2018, 09:58:00 AM

Depo is referring that having trouble with the onboard preset styles.
They should sound (almost) right, loud and clear, apart from each person's preferences.
(like drums are too high etc)
Depo are you sure you didn't messed up with the Equalizer settings on mixing concole or the live knobs are too low or something or you use registrations when you play the styles?

Are the styles in this video sound normalized to you or you can still hear the same big differences?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WS3fJ6m08Eg&t=1420s

Joe H · August 24, 2018, 11:49:04 AM

Quote from: Tankdave on August 23, 2018, 04:21:52 PM
So do I as I need to have a play with this leveling SW too, some of my "styles2psr" styles are extremely loud when compared to the onboard ones. I'm sure I have some very quiet ones too that need a boost

You can use the YEM Content Explore to extract Jan's styles to adjust them.

https://www.psrtutorial.com/forum/index.php/topic,43547.msg344073.html#msg344073

MixMaster will NOT adjust OTS so you will have to do that manually or use Jorgen's OTS Editor.

http://www.jososoft.dk/yamaha/software/software.htm

Joe H

Depo1964 · August 29, 2018, 07:56:27 PM

Quote from: panos on August 24, 2018, 09:58:00 AM
Depo is referring that having trouble with the onboard preset styles.
They should sound (almost) right, loud and clear, apart from each person's preferences.
(like drums are too high etc)
Depo are you sure you didn't messed up with the Equalizer settings on mixing concole or the live knobs are too low or something or you use registrations when you play the styles?

Are the styles in this video sound normalized to you or you can still hear the same big differences?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WS3fJ6m08Eg&t=1420s

Never touched the Equalizer settings on the mixing console... or the live knobs.

What exactly do you mean by using the registrations when I play the styles?....

I am always using a styles within a registration...
How should that effect what I am hearing via a style?

Does that video include other instruments being played via a style?

I'm not hearing so many different instruments.....
and yes, all those styles in that video sound normalized so that there are not any big differences....

In fact, here is a link to what I hear when I play some of those exact same styles..

http://www.dandepolito.com/images/Video/Genos_Styles_Problem.mp4

I do hope this problem is something that I am not doing correctly with playing Styles.
Please let me know if there are any other parameters I should check?
thx in advance.

mikf · August 30, 2018, 02:56:24 AM

The registration does not contain a style, it just points to a style on your keyboard. But the registration can contain some modifiers, although not too likely. Its easy to compare the style performance by just selecting it directly and see if this makes any difference. If you did not create these styles yourself, but downloaded them for somewhere, they may not have been made on your keyboard model, or using the built in styles. This can also make a difference.
Mike

Bill · August 30, 2018, 05:59:37 AM

Hi Dan

unfortunately I cannot get your demo video to play on my MAC. It shows the screen but does not play. Possibly a MP4 issue.

However trying the styles that you are talking about they play normally on my Genos BUT if I turn OFF the Accompaniment there is a marked difference in what you hear on the 2 you mention. This is NORMAL.

Just make sure that the Registrations are not selecting full keyboard in preference to split board.

Regards

Bill

Depo1964 · August 30, 2018, 09:22:49 AM

Quote from: mikf on August 30, 2018, 02:56:24 AM
The registration does not contain a style, it just points to a style on your keyboard. But the registration can contain some modifiers, although not too likely. Its easy to compare the style performance by just selecting it directly and see if this makes any difference. If you did not create these styles yourself, but downloaded them for somewhere, they may not have been made on your keyboard model, or using the built in styles. This can also make a difference.
Mike

Hi Mike,
I thought I was doing that in the video.
These are the original Styles from Yamaha.
I have not added any new Styles nor modified any of the factory installed ones at all.

Depo1964 · August 30, 2018, 09:37:54 AM

Quote from: Bill on August 30, 2018, 05:59:37 AM
Hi Dan

unfortunately I cannot get your demo video to play on my MAC. It shows the screen but does not play. Possibly a MP4 issue.

However trying the styles that you are talking about they play normally on my Genos BUT if I turn OFF the Accompaniment there is a marked difference in what you hear on the 2 you mention. This is NORMAL.

Just make sure that the Registrations are not selecting full keyboard in preference to split board.

Regards

Bill

Hi Bill,
Hmm. Just asked a fellow MAC user if he had any problems viewing and hearing the video and he said he didn't have any problems.
You sure you're on the latest OS updated?

I am not a typical Genos Arranger WS user... in that I never have ACMP turned on. Possible that is what the difference was in the Youtube video from Panos.

But I would expect the volumes of each of the Styles to be at least relatively the same .... which is definitely not the case in the examples I show in my video.....

I thought that perhaps the Dynamics Control in the Styles settings would make a difference.... but do not, regardless if it is turned off or set to Narrow or Wide.... right now it is set to Medium.

I'd be curious to see what fellow Genos Mixer fader settings for Style --> Sky Pop, Mixer Tab --> Style 1 --> Rhythm 1 & Style 2 --> Rhythm 1 is set to.
Thx for the reply.

tyrosaurus · August 30, 2018, 01:47:34 PM

I do not have a Genos so although I do have a copy of the Genos Preset styles, I can't tell you what they sound like on a Genos!

However if you don't have the ACMP on, only the Rhythm 1 and Rhythm 2 tracks will play when the style runs.

You can't see in the video which Main style variation you are using, but I suspect that it is A.

Many styles have 'quiet' or even no drum parts in variation A, so if you are using this Main section, you may not hear very much, or even nothing at all if you play such a style with ACMP off.

For example the version of SkyPop that I have has no note data for the Rhythm 2 channel in Variation A. There is just a quiet 'brush/tambourine shake' type sound on Rhythm 1.

If you open the Mixer on the Style1 page and select the Pan/Volume tab, you can see notes as they play on each channel by watching the indicator 'led' to the left of the numbers that show the current channel level. It flashes green each time that a note plays. You can see on your video of the SkyPop style that only the indicator for the Rhythm 1 channel is flashing, and there is nothing on the Rhythm 2 channel. This suggests that there is no note data for the primary drum channel (Rhythm 2) in the style section that you are playing. There are notes in both Rhythm channels in variations B, C and D, so try one of those to see if you hear more!

BTW the Rhythm 1 and Rhythm 2 channels that appear on Style2 page are the same as those on Style1 page. Style2 is only really needed to display the Audio part (if any), but Yamaha usefully added the two Rhythm channels to make it easier if you are balancing the MIDI rhythm parts with an Audio one!

Regards

Ian

mikf · August 30, 2018, 10:22:20 PM

I could not open the video either. You did say earlier in the thread that you are playing the style from a registration. However, now you are saying you are selecting them directly but the ACPM is not turned on. If ACPM is not turned on you are not really playing the style, so I am not sure what you are doing. Maybe you should describe exactly how you are using the keyboard. Or turn on the ACMP and play a chord while scrolling through som styles and see what you get.

Mike

Fred Smith · August 31, 2018, 02:58:40 AM

Quote from: Depo1964 on August 30, 2018, 09:37:54 AM

I am not a typical Genos Arranger WS user... in that I never have ACMP turned on.

You needed to say that a long time ago.

Fred

valimaties · August 31, 2018, 03:50:25 AM

First of all, please take the Owners Manual, and get familiarized with your instrument. Check on what all buttons do. In my opinion, you don't have any problem with your keyboard, it's really a user mistake in using his instrument.
BTW, there are styles that on Main A does not have Drums at all, so that means if you press Start button you will not hearing anything! (if you have ACMP Off - look in Owner Manual, pag. 44). Check also the Split Point (Owner Manual, pag. 49)
Style's general volume can be adjusted, on Genos (or Tyros'es) by moving up or down the corresponding slider. Setting the sliders option, you can find it on Owner Manual, pag. 27 and Owner Manual, pag.62

If you are a beginner in Arrangers World (any arranger) you have to read Owners Manual and Reference Manual, before use an arranger. I recommend electronic manual (pdf), and search in it... It is easier than paper manual.

Best regards,
Vali

markstyles · August 31, 2018, 08:28:24 AM

The poor balance of each instrument volume exists in some of the presets, when you are using ACMP feature. I believe that is what the software engineers, desired. It is not uncommon to have some instruments fairly soft in a mix, for the sake of clarity. However the balance of volumes in many of the styles doesn't feel right. In general, many of the volumes are just too soft. Out of 1 - 10, many styles have the loudest volume about 7 or 8, and softest down at 2. I don't really get why they designed the style volumes this way. Jumping styles in a song, will often make some instruments, drop so radically, it get's lost.

I too use the Genos in a different manner, (but do use ACMP).. I adjust the volume of each instrument to my liking when recording. I adjust the volume for maximum (for best signal to noise ration), and fix the mix in my DAW

However if you were playing Genos live, switching from style to style playing live, Irene's idea would be the solution.. Sometimes, I change the style, so that the bass uses the same instrument, for continuity. For many playing live, jumping styles, this probably won't make much difference, especially if your singing.. It will pass by unnoticed, because there are so many things happening anyways. It's only after repeated listenings, the ear will pick up on it.

I however, would not have the patience to go thru each style, re-adjust and save..

mikf · August 31, 2018, 09:09:07 AM

I don't think Depo is talking bout anything this detailed Mark. He is saying the overall volumes are poorly matched from style to style, and not minor differences. But if the ACMP is not on, I don't know how this conclusion can be reached.

panos · August 31, 2018, 12:34:26 PM

If someone having trouble to download Depo's video (.mp4 format) may want to try to download it from my google drive.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=18XCMP6ctpyhMq67vg7XcyMoS143CS3PY

My friend Depo,
in order to determinate if 2 or more styles are "normalized" in volume,
we have to hear the styles playing with all the 8 organs/parts that the style is made off.
In your video you compared the volumes of just the drums of a Main and yes, the drum volumes are different between the styles.
So,with ACMP in ON position,press start button and play just once a chord with your left hand
(e.g the C chord or the Am chord) and then start selecting differnet styles from your screen as you did and compare the overall sound.
Better do that by choosing the Main D where usually all 8 parts of a style are playing and also Main D may have patterns with more notes in compare to Main A,B,C.

You also have to consider (at least from my point of view) that the preset styles are just suggestions from Yamaha's engineers/musicians on how a style should sound to be ok for most of people to like it as it is.
I don't believe that I will ever use the same style to play 2 different songs without at least change the volumes of the style to match to my personal taste on how the style should sound for each of the 2 songs.
It will also depend on the right hand voices that I will choose and how low or not they will sound compare to the style.
A song's overall volume played on a keyboard, is style+right hand voices(+left hand voices,+multi pads etc)

Lee Batchelor · August 31, 2018, 01:04:07 PM

I didn't read the whole thread, but isn't the left hand style play touch sensitive? That is, the style volume varies according to how hard to press the cord? I know the previous models all had settings for this - either Off or On.

AlBags · September 01, 2018, 08:47:53 PM

Note to all:

If you are having problems with a MAC failing to play a downloaded video ..
The problem is NOT the file or download. It is due to the fact you have not the correct CODEC installed in your system to play the file (A codec is a small software file which tells the O.System how to play a file)
If you want to play almost ANY music or video file around, just use/install VLC Player. It contains many codecs and will play almost anything. You can find through Google. Reputable software.

Al.

Lee Batchelor · September 02, 2018, 07:34:44 AM

Agreed. I use the VLC player and it's rock solid. I've never had a failure with it.

Depo1964 · September 02, 2018, 07:08:33 PM

Quote from: panos on August 31, 2018, 12:34:26 PM
If someone having trouble to download Depo's video (.mp4 format) may want to try to download it from my google drive.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=18XCMP6ctpyhMq67vg7XcyMoS143CS3PY

My friend Depo,
............................................
Better do that by choosing the Main D where usually all 8 parts of a style are playing and also Main D may have patterns with more notes in compare to Main A,B,C.
...........................................

That was the reason Panos....
As soon as I choose the Main D button, I could hear similar volumes in all of my styles.
Thanks very much.

I apologize to everyone.... I will have to preface my questions by stating that I do not use Genos like an Arranger Workstation.