Genos - Is There Something I Am Missing?

[Pianoman]

Hello Everyone.

I have spent an entire morning with the Genos besides the other four times
that I also tested the keyboard.

I first chose a style I am familiar with from my T3, the Super Groove style,
named differently in the T3.

I then spent a considerable amount of time working the EQ, beginning with the presets
and then slowly adding tweaks.

I also used settings that I copied from StephenM which I found actually
made the Genis sound much better than the presets.

After that I moved on to the Compressor settings, doing basically the same thing.
First the presets,then my tweaks, then StephenM's tweaks again.

All these tweaks and settings gave me the impression that the Genos sounded better
than the first time I ever played it.

But the drums still sounded dull and somehow hollow, not the taut drums that I would have
liked to hear.

I moved on to other styles and the results were the same, no rich tight drums.

Please note that I'm only going on about Drums and Styles, because these 2 things,
especially tight drums and Bass, are the foundation of a great sound, no matter how good
other accompaniment sounds may be.

I have listened to many right hand voices, as well as voices for left hand layering,
and they are indeed good, but not very much better than other previous generation
Keyboards.

I will not go into details like having to tap the display several times before something happens,
as I believe that this subject has already been covered in some posts.

I have hesitated to share these opinions for quite a few days now, because they seem
to upset some people, particularly a couple of persons who frequently consider that any
questioning of the Genos is tantamount to calling them stupid for having bought one.

I am trying very hard to like and find a good reason to buy this instrument, and have
reserved the necessary cash since January.

But for the 5th time I came out of the store disappointed, especially after all the praise
that I have read, here and elsewhere.

There must be something that I am missing, that makes some people swoon deliriously
while leaving others lke me disappointed.

This post is not to bash the Genos, and I want to emphasize that I respect each person's
decision on whether to buy one or live without one.

I am honestly trying to understand, and would appreciate some civil and intelligent
responses that try to avoid the usual "Genos good, Genos better" mantra.

I thank you all in advance.

Best Regards.
Abby.

[Joe H]

"If in doubt... take no action"



Joe H

[Pianoman]

Thank you Joe, I like that.

Best Regards.
Abby.

[soryt]

It is known to professional musicians that their hearing has deteriorated considerably after a number of years, so it is possible that you can no longer perceive the differences.
the differences between the Tyros drums and the Genos are so incredibly big that it must be immediately audible.
Your audience will certainly hear the difference.
But given your experience with entertaining, there is no need to upgrade except if your Tyros is worn or broken.

best Regards

Soryt 

[XeeniX]

Abby

I for one appreciate your insights after the extensive testing you did. I read your previous post and your replies afterwards when you had tested it for the second time. With some of your conclusions I can agree with others I can't but that is mainly because my approach in playing and using a Genos would be totally different and that imho is one of the, if not THE decisive factor.

You approach it as a professional musician. I am a less then mediocre home player (I am not ashamed to admit that ). On top of that simple fact I like to experiment a lot with all the options a keyboard has to offer just for fun. Creating registrations, editing styles and voices and so on. Therefor the Genos would be an improvement for me since it has loads of new things that older models don't offer or only offer in a more limited way like the new playlist option v.s. Musicfinder to name only one.

My T5 has more than enough options to keep me busy for quite a few years to come. The voices are more than fine even if the Genos has improved sounds in certain sections. And yet if an interesting offer would be made I would go for it. Simply because it is a new toy with unexplored areas. I will not go as far as to say it's awesome or as you mentioned that some said "God given" because to me it is only a keyboard. To me it is a toy and not a priority in life.

I would say: Live and let live or in layman's terms to each his own. If you are still happy with your T3 than why the doubts whether you should or shouldn't invest in a Genos?  I'd say don't. After all your testing you, by now, at least know what it can do. Time enough to buy one if really needed as in: When the T3 is starting to walk towards the keyboard version of an elephant graveyard.

I listened to a few of your performances you posted on this forum and was an entertained listener wishing my skills and produced sounds were that good

happy gigging,
Peter

[Pianoman]

Thank you Soryt and Peter.

I appreciate the quick responses. My T3 is slowly reaching the end of it's life, after 8 years
of heavy use.

It is probably good for another couple of years, but I think it would be wise for me to buy
a second keyboard and keep the T3 as a backup, hence my weekly visits to the music
store to test the Genos. Five visits so far, the latest one being last Friday the 27th.

I had posted pictures last December or January, that showed broken buttons and some
wobbly ones on ny T3.

The EXIT button is broken, and the DIRECT ACCESS will be next, as it's already quite wobbly.
I tried to repair these buttons myself, but had to stop because of causing damage to the
display.

There are other buttons too, in the Variations section and others I can't think of now.

I am inclining towards a 61 key T5 too, because of my familiarity with the Tyros functions, but wanted
to try the Genos anyway, just to be sure that I am not going to make an expensive mistake.

I have never seen or played a T5, but I'm guessing that most T5 controls, styles, and voices are
something that I would be familiar with.

I have hounded the music store for months to bring a Genos over, and they too are baffled
as to why I am hesitating.

I have the money, but something about the sound of the Genos is holding me back.

It is not my hearing either Soryt. I heard my tie pin drop to the floor last night, as I was
furiously blasting away with Smoke On The Water, while delivering 1800 Watts worth of sound
outdoors, for a Harley Davidson club.

It's not that I can't hear a difference, it's that the Genos drums sound dull, and not tight.
Maybe I'm using the wrong expression to describe my experience.

For practical purposes, I WANT to have a second keyboard.
A lost gig evening because of keyboard failure would mean a big loss of income for me, not
to mention a loss of reputation for reliability.

Professional musicians will understand this, reputation is everything.

I so much want to like this board, pull out some cash, and take it home.
The Harley Davidson crowd already paid for one third of a Genos yesterday.

Best Regards.
Abby.

[XeeniX]

Than I guess someone close to you needs to do some exercising and lift a foot to err "activate" your decision sensors mwuhaha and force  you to take action. Any action at all The most dreadful decision is no decision at all. Pick one and no matter what you pick - (stay at T3 and pray for a longer lifespan, go for T5 for the familiarity and better voices and titled screen, or go for Genos with even better voices and more options but less familiarity and a touchscreen that can't be tilted and so perhaps causing visual problems every now and then during gigs with bright spotlights) - it will be at least A decision and thus better than the non-desisive, doubting path you are on now.

kind regards,
Peter

[Lee Batchelor]

After that I moved on to the Compressor settings, doing basically the same thing.
First the presets,then my tweaks, then StephenM's tweaks again.

Abby, where do I find StephenM's tweaks? I would like to try them.

Also, when you demo'd the Genos, did you play it thorough the identical speakers you play your T3 through? This seems to be a VERY often missed variable - everyone demos a keyboard, but sometimes form an opinion under conditions they can't trust. Not saying you did that, but just thought I'd mention it. You must play the Genos through your system, and at home where you know what your T3 sounds like.

I have a very clear understanding with my music store. I don't demo or buy a $6,000 keyboard in the music store among: the house PA playing crap music of today's vintage, some kid playing Smoke On The Water through a Marshall amp turned up to 11, and a rookie drummer in the corner whose concept of music is "loudest is best" (LOL). No sir, I take it home and A/B it against my old keyboard, through my performance system. Moral: you can't form a reliable opinion until the playing field is level. I did this A/B test with my T5 and Genos. The Genos won hands down. The entire T series is made up of great keyboards, especially in your capable hands (I've heard you play). I would love to hear what you would do with a Genos. Think about it .

[markstyles]

I believe one must adjust to changes, in new versions of instruments, in new political, business developments, in life in general.. Things are not always going to go the way you want.

The Genos is NOT a Tyros.. I had several issues at first.. But once I let go of my 'pre-conceptions' because I had three generations of Tyros, it was easier to accept the Genos.  There's a few things I'm not thrilled with, but there is little point in bashing now.. 

Just like when you split up with an old girlfriend, the next girlfriend will be different..  You have to accept things grow, change, mutated.. Even your hearing, and tastes change.  If you really feel strongly about the Genos don't buy it. 

But it is fine to express your concerns,  if things are broken, that is a completely different animal.. We are paying top dollar for this top of the line piece of equipment, and it should work perfect.  My experience with Yamaha over the many years, is they care about their products and customers..

You should find the Yamaha department to express your thoughts, regard functionality/design..  However faulty switches, hardware, contact your dealer.  Or it they are flaking out, contact Yamha directly..  Good luck..

Sorry you are not finding the Genos to your expectations.. I am greatly enjoying the extra DSP's and the more mega voices.

[Pianoman]

Abby, where do I find StephenM's tweaks? I would like to try them.

Also, when you demo'd the Genos, did you play it thorough the identical speakers you play your T3 through?

Hello Lee.

Thank you for the response and advice.

Here are StephenM's settings for Compressor and EQ. I'm sure he won't mind me sharing
them.

I didn't Demo the Genos on my gear, but on my Sennheiser Headphones that I use for making
Registrations om my T3 at home and then playing through my gear.

These are phenomenal headphones that I take everywhere with me. They costed me 95€
five ye
Here is an example of a well known song that I worked on at home using the Sennheisers.
It sounds phenomenal on my JBLs and 15 Inch Subwoofer.

It's called Pick Up The Pieces, from Average White Band.
This is a straight sit and play, with no Midi File trickery.


https://app.box.com/s/rdgph7010u4djxe6pajpltritj6w0gen


It makes people jump up and want to dance on tables.

My experience is that, if it sounds right on the Sennheisers, it will sound right everywhere.

Best Regards.
Abby.


[attachment deleted by admin]

[DonM]

Hi Abby,
As you know I've been following your posts in your ongoing quest to get a new keyboard.  I would like to suggest one thing that you may not have considered.
After 8 years of playing the T3, you may have "grown accustomed to her face" so to speak.
Is it likely that when you hear something different your mind may be interpreting as "not as good"? 
I know from personal experience that this can happen, even to me. 
For example you may be so used to hearing the T3 drums that the Genos drums, being admittedly different, don't sound the way you are expecting and thus not as good.
I see so many people get a new arranger and then go to great lengths to make it sound just like the one they are replacing.
Don't get me wrong, I have all the respect in the world for your ability to know what you're hearing, but, having been a little guilty of this myself, thought it might be something you hadn't considered.
For health reasons, I recently sold my beloved Korg PA4X and replaced it with another PSR S970.  (I had one previously for a backup kb).   I TRULY miss the drum sounds, and the vocal processing, and the operating features, on that Korg, but my audiences didn't even know I'd changed keyboards!   Incidentally I will visit with the Genos in the near future.  I don't expect to be blown away, but, like you, I hope I AM.
Now that I'm feeling better, I wish I'd kept the PA4X, but I will carefully audition the Genos, and then decide whether to get one, or simply wait for the Korg top-of-the-line replacement for 4X.
I know you will make the right decision, and that it will be best FOR YOU.  Doesn't matter what anyone else thinks. 
Best wishes my friend!!

[DonM]

I just saw the e.q. settings you tried. Man those are some radical settings! 
You would think Yamaha, and the other companies as well, would make these expensive tools sound optimum when you open the box and turn them on.
I know they don't though.  Anyway, good luck again!

[stephenm52]

Abbey,  No problem at all you posting those EQ settings, I'm happy to hear you gave them a try.  Good luck with your future demos and do what you think is best.

[Pianoman]

Thank you Don and Stephen.

Don, I have not given up on the Genos yet.
I am merely reporting my findings and frustration.

And yes, I too may be guilty of trying to make a new keyboard sound like the one I
want to replace.

On the other hand, whatever keyboard we use, the keyboard becomes us, not the other
way round.

We are the sound, and we will tune whatever instrument, be it Guitars, Drums, Keyboards,
and even tuning/detuning acoustic pianos till the instrument becomes our identifying
fingerprint.

I played in a hotel pool area a few years ago, and there was a tourist who hadn't seen me
for years.

The last time he had heard me, I was playing Jazz music, with a focus on Nat King Cole
and using a Roland G-800.

This time I was playing Dire Straits and using a T3.

This guy was not a hotel guest, and was just walking past the hotel outside when he heard
the music.

He said he knew it was me, because of my distinctive sound, regardless of the song or
different style of music.

Maybe that's  what it is. I hope this makes sense.

Got to sleep now. It's 5 AM here, important gig today.

Best Regards.
Abby.

[jgriffin]

WOWOWOWOWOWOWO!!!!  Pick Me Up...I could dance my you know what off to that Abby. 

[panos]

Hi Abby,
The sound of drums that you did n't like, reminded me the difference that people find between the drums of Tyros and Pa.
Some think that Pa drums are more realistic and Tyros's more synthesized.
For me it depends whether you like to hear a drummer playing next to you or if you like to  hear the drummer playing in a studio using equipment with effects to boost up sounds.
I think that maybe same happened to you beacause Genos got a new approach of drumkits compare to the other Yamaha's models.

I have read that you are taking your headphones with you,which I also believe is a smart move to test a keyboard's sounds (unless you can take also your speakers with you )
but may I ask why some tweked EQ settings should work best whether you can use different models of headphones or differnet models of speakers with a subwoofer or different models of speakers without a subwoofer?
Should n't the Eq settings be tweked not only according to the source of the sound but also according to the exit of the sound and not to mention to the enviroment too?

I hope you find a keyboard or synthesizer that you really like and can boost your creativity along with your Tyros.
A technician can replace those buttons when the season is over. 
(Variations section buttons on my psr cost 25 euros+payment of the technician.)

[DerekA]

Abby

You seem to be trying really hard to convince yourself to get a Genos.

If you don't like it, don't buy it. There's little point in continually looking for something that you're not finding.

You can easily find a used T5-76 for half the price.

[Pianoman]

Hello Panos.

That's a very interesting question about whether I want to hear a drummer play next to me
or a drummer playing in a studio.

I like to feel that I'm playing with a real drummer next to me.
I posted the song Pick Up The Pieces to illustrate the tight and dry drums that I like ti hear.

If you have noticed, there's almost no reverb effect in the drums.

I do not like overwhelming Echo and Reverb in general, and prefer an absolute minimum
necessary for the drums.

Real drummers do not use reverb, except for 80s music when drum boxes were dripping
with reverb.

I have played in bands till I was 32 years old, and only went it alone because of lack of
discipline among band members.

The drummer in my last band was something to behold, and I always think of him when
tuning drums or listening to drums.

I will repeat again what I said in my original post above. If you've got the drums and bass
nicely tuned and figured out in a style, then you've got your sound.

And the rest of the accompaniment can be either toned down or muted.

I make exceptions for whether I play outdoors or indoors.

A simple quick trick is having my entire user registrations duplicated in another folder, and save
them on the Hard disk.

I then reduce the general master reverb for styles, pads etc, from 64 down to 40 or 32, and
save it all. This will then be what I use for playing indoors.

The reason I take my headphones everywhere is that, through much trial and error,
I have learned how to tweak EQ, Compression, and instrument levels so that the keyboard
sounds as good on my sound system as it does on the headphones.

The subwoofer is for compensating for the lack of depth to the overall sound, since most main
speakers have a problem with very low frequencies.

Best Regards.
Abby.

[Gunnar Jonny]

If not manage to mix the effects as you like at Genos itself, maybe there is another way to do it?

Quote ref. manual page 152:
'You can assign any desired part or drum/percussion instrument sound to any of the LINE OUT jacks, for independent output.'

There are 4 line outs, so if send drums totally dry of effects to i.e. 3 or 4 and then to your mixer / PA could be a solution to fit your needs and taste?

Reminds me back when I had the KN5000. Got the optional HD, and the mounting kit had extra line outputs where we could send bass and drums.

[Pianoman]

If not manage to mix the effects as you like at Genos itself, maybe there is another way to do it?

Quote ref. manual page 152:
'You can assign any desired part or drum/percussion instrument sound to any of the LINE OUT jacks, for independent output.'

There are 4 line outs, so if send drums totally dry of effects to i.e. 3 or 4 and then to your mixer / PA could be a solution to fit your needs and taste?

Reminds me back when I had the KN5000. Got the optional HD, and the mounting kit had extra line outputs where we could send bass and drums.

That's a good idea Gunnar. Funny that I never thought of that.

Best Regards.
Abby.

[Pianoman]

WOWOWOWOWOWOWO!!!!  Pick Me Up...I could dance my you know what off to that Abby. 

Thanks Janet.

Average White Band, Funk at it's best.

Best Regards.
Abby.

[pjd]

This is absolutely the BEST thread! Solid, practical discussion. Thanks!

Lots of good advice there, Abby. Totally agree about dialing down the reverb. I play in a reverberant church. What the heck do I need reverb for? I dial in a little reverb for practice at home.

Many of the voices that I've gravitated to are from the T5. The T5 is a fine instrument with a good action. No shame in going T5. Everybody has to live and work within their means, too.

Best of luck and times to everyone -- pj

[jwyvern]

Hi Abby,
If you look at your EQ settings they seem heavily skewed towards the mellow. IE. high positive gains on the lower frequencies and (very) high negative "gains" on most of the high freqs. While this gives a fabulous preset mellow full KB piano sound (eg the cfx) it is perhaps not surprising the sizzle is taken out of the Preset drums and any percussion that is also in the samples.  I only play at home but with my Genos and speaker set up, including 75 year old ears let's be honest to me those settings severely distort the sounds from my registrations eg.Big Band ensembles or Strings. I realise what may suit one setup EQ wise may not suit another, and of course Stephen is successfully using them but as a rough comparison, my normal frequency categories are similar to yours,  and the gains at 560hz and above, rather than being minus 6 to minus 8 are all slightly positive, a huge difference ?
John

[Kaarlo von Freymann]

It is known to professional musicians that their hearing has deteriorated considerably after a number of years, so it is possible that you can no longer perceive the differences.
the differences between the Tyros drums and the Genos are so incredibly big that it must be immediately audible.
Your audience will certainly hear the difference.
But given your experience with entertaining, there is no need to upgrade except if your Tyros is worn or broken.

best Regards

Soryt 

Soryt,  Very true, the hearing of professional musicians has deteriorated considerably after a number of years. And unfortunately not only for those who make the 110 dB  popo-noise. If you are interested, classical musicians are even more affected.

                         https://www.hear-it.org/the-dangers-of-being-a-musician-1

But not only musicians. A recent study here found that about half of the young jogging with earphones (often so loud that you can hear it when they pass you)  can no more here grashoppers.  My audience are all over 50 and my experience is they want music either as background noise or to dance to. In both cases I am quite sure the difference between TYROS and GENOS  will not be perceptible or of interest to them.  There is no need to upgrade. I did because of the slight difference in weight makes a huge difference to my old back.

Cheers

Kaarlo

[Kaarlo von Freymann]

Hello Lee.

Thank you for the response and advice.

Here are StephenM's settings for Compressor and EQ. I'm sure he won't mind me sharing
them.

I didn't Demo the Genos on my gear, but on my Sennheiser Headphones that I use for making
Registrations om my T3 at home and then playing through my gear.

These are phenomenal headphones that I take everywhere with me. They costed me 95€
five ye
Here is an example of a well known song that I worked on at home using the Sennheisers.
It sounds phenomenal on my JBLs and 15 Inch Subwoofer.

It's called Pick Up The Pieces, from Average White Band.
This is a straight sit and play, with no Midi File trickery.


https://app.box.com/s/rdgph7010u4djxe6pajpltritj6w0gen


It makes people jump up and want to dance on tables.

My experience is that, if it sounds right on the Sennheisers, it will sound right everywhere.

Best Regards.
Abby.

Abby,
Your excellent phrasing  -  sax player inheritance ? -  was really top notch.  Really musical phrasing can even make monotonous modern rhythms less disturbing.    After you sent me your photo with the sax i understood how  come your rendering of What a Wonderful World  was so exquisite not only musically but show-wise.   I feel what separates the real musicians from the want to be ones like me is phrasing, that kind of wandering some times a little in front and sometimes a little behind and the syncope just in the right place.  The worst being a midi file with the melody quantized  to  1/16.  The piano playing and the singing of Nat King Cole is the perfect example of  phrasing that I miss in to-day's music. The melodies (and their harmonies)  played by Nat King Cole and Louis Armstrong were not always  very complicated - like Charlie Parker's -  but sometimes less is more.  We have a top notch classical  soprano, Grammy award winner  Carita Mattila.  She was performing at a friend's 60th birthday. Everything was fine as long as she performed classical opera arias. Then she made the mistake of singing "Summer Time".  It was embarrassing, I felt sorry for her.   

Cheers

Kaarlo

[Kaarlo von Freymann]

Hello Panos.




If you have noticed, there's almost no reverb effect in the drums.

I do not like overwhelming Echo and Reverb in general, and prefer an absolute minimum
necessary for the drums.

Real drummers do not use reverb, except for 80s music when drum boxes were dripping
with reverb.


Best Regards.
Abby.

Abby,
I feel exactly like you , "I do not like overwhelming Echo and Reverb in general, and prefer an absolute minimum
necessary for the drums."

I seems effects of all kinds are much overdone. I can still remember when the first echo-machines came out. Until the fifties there were no effects.
The Vocal Harmony on Genos is better than on Tyros - cannot really say why,  what makes it better, but I  have both Helicon and Digitech Studio rack units and the Roland V 7 so I am sure it is not an illusion. BUT you have to use the different voice  settings without the effects or diminish them drastically for a reasonably authentic  singer effect.

Cheers

Kaarlo

[Pianoman]

Abby

You seem to be trying really hard to convince yourself to get a Genos.

If you don't like it, don't buy it.

Hello Derek.

I was actually looking for some constructive suggestions. That perhaps I'm missing
a trick or tweak to make it sound more alive.

Best Regards.
Abby.

[DonM]

I usually reduce reverb on drums.  Yamaha is notorious for using too much.  Haven't played the Genos yet though.

[soryt]

To make a long story short , you need a young Tyros 5/ 61 in excellent condition ,playing for many years save .

Soryt 

[Pianoman]

Not a bad idea Soryt, and it is something I have been seriously considering.
I have also considered the keyboard brand that may not be named here.

Sadly I have not seen, or been able to try out either of these two keyboards.

I have tested a friend's T4 a couple of years ago, and was already VERY impressed.

The T5 would be because I am so familiar with the Tyros series controls, especially
EQ and Compressor settings, but also the tilt screen.

I sometimes play under bright stage lights, or in bright daylight, during the spring
and summer months, so a tilting screen is very helpful to have.

I have heard that the keyboard brand that may not be named here sounds more
authentic and alive, like a real band.

But it does not have the vast support network and the availability of thousands of
modified styles that Yamaha keyboard owners enjoy.

So it will have to be a Yamaha, and maybe buy the other keyboard that cannot be
named just for specific gigs.

I am a very stubborn man though, so I haven't given up on my quest of getting the
Genos to sound just how I'd like it to.

If I manage to find that recipe, I might end up being a Genos owner after all.

Besides, I like the great company and camaraderie here.

Best Regards.
Abby.